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[webfact]

Cuban investigators say U.S. sonic attack allegations 'science fiction'

By Sarah Marsh and Nelson Acosta

 

A team investigating U.S. complaints of attacks on diplomats in Havana, lead by Cuban Interior Ministry's Colonel Ramiro Ramirez (R), participate in an interview at the Hotel Nacional in Havana, Cuba, October 22, 2017. REUTERS/Alexandre Meneghini

 

HAVANA (Reuters) - Cuban officials investigating U.S. complaints of attacks on diplomats in Havana said talk of acoustic strikes was "science fiction" and they accused Washington of "slander" while refusing to cooperate fully with Cuba's enquiry.

 

U.S. President Donald Trump said last week that he believed Havana was responsible for 24 diplomats being harmed. Earlier in October, Washington expelled 15 Cuban diplomats and recalled more than half the U.S. diplomatic personnel from Havana.

 

Although Cuban Foreign Minister Bruno Rodriguez had denounced the expulsions as "unjustified" and accused the United States of insufficient cooperation, three Cuban Interior Ministry officials and a doctor heading the inquiry provided more details in an interview on Sunday in Havana.

 

Cuba had deployed about 2,000 experts, from criminologists to audiologists and mathematicians, to investigate the incidents after it became aware of them in February, the officials said.

 

The probe has not ended, but so far, it had failed to uncover any evidence to corroborate allegations of attacks that the United States says have caused hearing loss, dizziness, fatigue and cognitive issues in diplomatic personnel while based on the Communist Party-ruled island.

 

"Our main concern at this moment are the accusations being made by the U.S. government and we are focussed on that because this is a slander," said Colonel Ramiro Ramirez, responsible for the security of diplomats in Cuba.

 

There was no immediate comment from the White House or the U.S. State Department.

 

U.S. media outlets have cited Washington officials as raising the possibility that sonic weapons were used to harm the diplomats. However, Cuban investigators said the Caribbean country did not possess such weapons and denied they could even have been used by third parties without affecting the health of others or attracting attention.

 

"It's impossible. We are talking about science fiction," said Lieutenant Colonel Jose Alazo, an expert in the criminal investigation unit of the Interior Ministry. "From a technical point of view, that argument is unsustainable."

 

The investigators said the United States had neither allowed access to the people it said had been harmed nor the houses where they reported the attacks took place so their team has instead studied the surrounding areas and interviewed neighbours.

 

They have also evaluated 14 recordings of noises supplied as evidence by the United States and concluded they did not contain anything damaging.

 

"We have not been able to prove the incident exists, nor have we been able to prove the sounds we have analysed damage human health," said Lieutenant Colonel Roberto Hernandez, another investigator in the Interior Ministry.

 

(Reporting by Sarah Marsh and Nelson Acosta; Editing by Daniel Flynn and Grant McCool)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2017-10-25

[attrayant]

4 minutes ago, webfact said:

The probe has not ended, but so far, it had failed to uncover any evidence to corroborate allegations of attacks that the United States says have caused hearing loss, dizziness, fatigue and cognitive issues in diplomatic personnel while based on the Communist Party-ruled island.

 

That doesn't matter because Trump has already formed an alternate reality in his head:

 

5 minutes ago, webfact said:

Trump said last week that he believed Havana was responsible for 24 diplomats being harmed.

 

There you go.  Why even waste time with a probe or investigation?

[keith101]

The body language of all four in the photo is saying to me they are talking a load of bull because they cant face the camera 

[Naam]

45 minutes ago, keith101 said:

The body language of all four in the photo is saying to me they are talking a load of bull because they cant face the camera 

a load of bull are the allegations. beam me up Scotty!

[boomerangutang]

I write science fiction, though none of my stories take places in Cuba.  

[ilostmypassword]

2 hours ago, keith101 said:

The body language of all four in the photo is saying to me they are talking a load of bull because they cant face the camera 

This is from a Paul Ekman group. Paul Ekman is the guy who pretty much started the whole scientific study of reading faces.

Do Liars Avoid Eye Contact?

In a word? No. In fact, liars may intentionally not avoid eye contact at all.

Over the years, it seems most liars know about the myth and simply don’t behave that way.

http://www.paulekmaninternational-singapore.com/liars-avoid-eye-contact/

[attrayant]

3 hours ago, keith101 said:

The body language of all four in the photo is saying to me they are talking a load of bull because they cant face the camera 

 

Do you know how many cameras were probably in this room all snapping pictures simultaneously?  If you go to the actual Reuters story, you'll see Cuban Interior Ministry's Colonel Ramiro Ramirez looking directly at you with utter disgust.

[partington]

Right from the start it was clear there was no rational scientific basis for these claims, as no-one even in the US could come up with a description of any known apparatus that could have these effects.  

 

In addition supposing that Cubans have a weapon so technically advanced it is unknown to science seems slightly absurd.

 

Currently neurologists and psychologists in the US are coming to the realisation that this is mass hysteria.

 

"Mass hysteria may explain 'sonic attacks' in Cuba, say top neurologists

• Despite 22 Americans reporting symptoms no evidence of a weapon found
• Experts suspect a psychosomatic disorder linked to high stress in Havana

 

“From an objective point of view it’s more like mass hysteria than anything else,” said Mark Hallett, the head of the human motor control section of the US National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke. 

“Mass hysteria” is the popular term for outbreaks among groups of people which are partly or wholly psychosomatic, but Hallett stressed there should be no blame attached to them.

“Psychosomatic disease is a disease like anything else. It shouldn’t be stigmatised,” said Hallett, who is also president of the International Federation of Clinical Neurophysiology. “It’s important to point out that symptoms like this are not voluntary. They are not a sign of weakness in an individual’s personality.”

Hallett said it was more common for such disorders to affect smaller groups of people, often in families, but he added that it was feasible for larger numbers of individuals to be affected, especially when they were working closely together in a tense and hostile environment.

“There are a very large number of individuals that have relatively vague complaints as far as I can see,” Hallett said. “There has been an exploration of possible causes for this and nothing has been found and the notion of some sonic beam is relatively nonsensical."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/12/cuba-mass-hysteria-sonic-attacks-neurologists

Edited October 25, 2017 by partington

[BuaBS]

12 hours ago, webfact said:

24 diplomats

Yes , sure they where all "diplomats" .

[Slain]

One just has to estimate the possibilty of the Trump administration lying.  

 

The possibility of the Cubans developing such a weapon, and why?

 

Then throw in the fact that Trumps mission is to make any acheivment of Obamas look bad.

[William T]

Obama tried to improve relations with Cuba by reopening the Embassy and allowing easier travel by air, so it was not in Cuba's interest do this and  give Trump an excuse to put on more restrictions.

If it was done, it was by those who do not want US- Cuba relations to be improved.

[Foozool]

I won't be a surprise if Trump close the doors again. Since doors of friendship opened by Obama. 

Trump hates anything that happened during Obama presidency. 

[attrayant]

My pet theory is that it's a PR stunt for the come-back of the new X-Files season.

 

[craigt3365]

16 hours ago, partington said:

Right from the start it was clear there was no rational scientific basis for these claims, as no-one even in the US could come up with a description of any known apparatus that could have these effects.  

 

In addition supposing that Cubans have a weapon so technically advanced it is unknown to science seems slightly absurd.

 

Currently neurologists and psychologists in the US are coming to the realisation that this is mass hysteria.

 

"Mass hysteria may explain 'sonic attacks' in Cuba, say top neurologists

• Despite 22 Americans reporting symptoms no evidence of a weapon found
• Experts suspect a psychosomatic disorder linked to high stress in Havana

 

“From an objective point of view it’s more like mass hysteria than anything else,” said Mark Hallett, the head of the human motor control section of the US National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke. 

“Mass hysteria” is the popular term for outbreaks among groups of people which are partly or wholly psychosomatic, but Hallett stressed there should be no blame attached to them.

“Psychosomatic disease is a disease like anything else. It shouldn’t be stigmatised,” said Hallett, who is also president of the International Federation of Clinical Neurophysiology. “It’s important to point out that symptoms like this are not voluntary. They are not a sign of weakness in an individual’s personality.”

Hallett said it was more common for such disorders to affect smaller groups of people, often in families, but he added that it was feasible for larger numbers of individuals to be affected, especially when they were working closely together in a tense and hostile environment.

“There are a very large number of individuals that have relatively vague complaints as far as I can see,” Hallett said. “There has been an exploration of possible causes for this and nothing has been found and the notion of some sonic beam is relatively nonsensical."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/12/cuba-mass-hysteria-sonic-attacks-neurologists

It's happened before.  You can research that.  Hardly hysteria.

 

The general consensus is that it was not Cuba.  But another foreign entity in Cuba.  Not the Cuban's though.  As stated in your article.  Which also says this:

Quote

The neurologists who talked to the Guardian cautioned that no proper diagnosis is possible without far more information and access to the 22 US victims, who have suffered a range of symptoms including hearing loss, tinnitus, headaches and dizziness.

 

This is just pure speculation on the part of some who've got no access to the evidence.

[craigt3365]

15 hours ago, Slain said:

One just has to estimate the possibilty of the Trump administration lying.  

 

The possibility of the Cubans developing such a weapon, and why?

 

Then throw in the fact that Trumps mission is to make any acheivment of Obamas look bad.

They aren't saying the Cubans did this. They are saying the Cubans didn't properly protect their staff there.

[attrayant]

1 hour ago, craigt3365 said:

It's happened before.  You can research that.

 

I tried; nothing.  Can you give a hint?  At least a country and approximate date?

 

 

1 hour ago, craigt3365 said:

The general consensus is that it was not Cuba.  But another foreign entity in Cuba.

 

 

I must have missed that report.  Who reached this consensus?

[craigt3365]

8 minutes ago, attrayant said:

 

I tried; nothing.  Can you give a hint?  At least a country and approximate date?

 

 

 

 

I must have missed that report.  Who reached this consensus?

Research the "Moscow signal".

 

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/08/25/the-secret-history-of-diplomats-and-invisible-weapons-russia-cuba/

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41133855

Quote

The state department is yet to blame anyone for the incidents.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4923458/US-doesn-t-believe-Cuba-mysterious-sonic-attacks.html

Quote

 

No one believes that the Cubans are responsible,' a source familiar with the investigation told McClatchy on Tuesday.

'All of the evidence points that they're not.'

 

 

[stevenl]

27 minutes ago, attrayant said:

 

I tried; nothing.  Can you give a hint?  At least a country and approximate date?

 

 

 

 

I must have missed that report.  Who reached this consensus?

Just his usual blaming Russia thingy.

[craigt3365]

15 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Just his usual blaming Russia thingy.

If it walks like a duck....the dots do connect.  But no proof. 

 

Is that better? LOL

[attrayant]

50 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

Research the "Moscow signal".

 

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/08/25/the-secret-history-of-diplomats-and-invisible-weapons-russia-cuba/

 

That's not the same thing.  That's about microwave radiation.  When you said "It's happened before", I thought you meant the same thing that is allegedly happening now - i.e. reports of random, vague

health symptoms.

 

Quote

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41133855

 

Not sure which part of this report you want to draw attention to.  Maybe this: "The state department is yet to blame anyone for the incidents."  It seem to be just one of the many news reports about the incident, providing lots of speculation but no real answers.

 

Quote

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4923458/US-doesn-t-believe-Cuba-mysterious-sonic-attacks.html

 

No access to the Daily Rag.  However I agree with the URL in that there is a consensus that Cuba is not to blame.  I was asking about a consensus for your second sentence that I quoted: "But another foreign entity in Cuba [is to blame]".  Where is the consensus for that statement?

 

Quote

If it walks like a duck....the dots do connect.

 

First dot: Russia 1965.  Second dot: Cuba 2017.  That's an awfully long line you drew to connect those two dots.

Edited October 26, 2017 by attrayant

[craigt3365]

12 minutes ago, attrayant said:

 

That's not the same thing.  That's about microwave radiation.  When you said "It's happened before", I thought you meant the same thing that is allegedly happening now - i.e. reports of random, vague

health symptoms.

 

 

Not sure which part of this report you want to draw attention to.  Maybe this: "The state department is yet to blame anyone for the incidents."  It seem to be just one of the many news reports about the incident, providing lots of speculation but no real answers.

 

 

No access to the Daily Rag.  However I agree with the URL in that there is a consensus that Cuba is not to blame.  I was asking about a consensus for your second sentence that I quoted: "But another foreign entity in Cuba [is to blame]".  Where is the consensus for that statement?

 

 

First dot: Russia 1965.  Second dot: Cuba 2017.  That's an awfully long line you drew to connect those two dots.

That's exactly what happened in 1965.  Random, vague health symptons.

 

The dots are that the exposure first started when Russian diplomats were kicked out of the US.  Russia has been researching this for decades.  It's been done before.  Etc.

 

This is an interesting article to read.  Should provide some insight.

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/13/politics/cuba-us-diplomats-acoustic-weapons/index.html

 

[ilostmypassword]

3 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

Research the "Moscow signal".

 

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/08/25/the-secret-history-of-diplomats-and-invisible-weapons-russia-cuba/

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41133855

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4923458/US-doesn-t-believe-Cuba-mysterious-sonic-attacks.html

 

Did you actually read the article about the "Moscow Signal". The claim was debunked. So if in fact there is a connection, it's what didn't happen in Moscow also didn't happen in Havana. Bizarre.

[Morch]

5 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

They aren't saying the Cubans did this. They are saying the Cubans didn't properly protect their staff there.

 

How to "properly protect" against something which isn't properly defined?

[stevenl]

2 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

That's exactly what happened in 1965.  Random, vague health symptons.

 

The dots are that the exposure first started when Russian diplomats were kicked out of the US.  Russia has been researching this for decades.  It's been done before.  Etc.

 

This is an interesting article to read.  Should provide some insight.

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/13/politics/cuba-us-diplomats-acoustic-weapons/index.html

 

About 1965, from your foreign policy link

" It was all a lie. The Moscow Viral Study, as it was called, was the cover story for the American government’s top secret investigation into the effects of microwave radiation on humans. The Soviets, it turned out, were bombarding the embassy in Moscow with low-level microwaves. The “Moscow Signal,” as officials in Washington called the radiation, was too low to do any obvious harm to the people in the building. ".

 

So to continue your own narrative, " That's exactly what happened in 1965.  Random, vague health symptons. ", how about the thought that also this time it were not foreign powers that caused this?

 

 

[craigt3365]

10 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Did you actually read the article about the "Moscow Signal". The claim was debunked. So if in fact there is a connection, it's what didn't happen in Moscow also didn't happen in Havana. Bizarre.

It was actually confirmed.  What's in debate are the health consequences.  Have you seen the reports where they've actually recorded the signal?  Seems pretty read.

 

I'm sure both Russia and the US have extensive research into this.  Don't doubt for one minute they don't.

[craigt3365]

6 minutes ago, stevenl said:

About 1965, from your foreign policy link

" It was all a lie. The Moscow Viral Study, as it was called, was the cover story for the American government’s top secret investigation into the effects of microwave radiation on humans. The Soviets, it turned out, were bombarding the embassy in Moscow with low-level microwaves. The “Moscow Signal,” as officials in Washington called the radiation, was too low to do any obvious harm to the people in the building. ".

 

So to continue your own narrative, " That's exactly what happened in 1965.  Random, vague health symptons. ", how about the thought that also this time it were not foreign powers that caused this?

 

 

Agreed.  No solid proof these signals caused any health problems.  Yet, there are reports cell phone signals might cause brain cancer.  Guaranteed, we don't have the scientific knowledge to know for sure.  But the signals are real.  Many have reported health problems.  Where's there's smoke....

 

[ilostmypassword]

1 minute ago, craigt3365 said:

It was actually confirmed.  What's in debate are the health consequences.  Have you seen the reports where they've actually recorded the signal?  Seems pretty read.

 

I'm sure both Russia and the US have extensive research into this.  Don't doubt for one minute they don't.

Yes, it was confirmed that the Russians were focusing low energy microwave radiation on the embassy. But no good evidence of health effects was found. Nada. Zip. So if you want to tie this to what's going on in Cuba, that means more nothing.

[stevenl]

3 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

Agreed.  No solid proof these signals caused any health problems.  Yet, there are reports cell phone signals might cause brain cancer.  Guaranteed, we don't have the scientific knowledge to know for sure.  But the signals are real.  Many have reported health problems.  Where's there's smoke....

 

Total nonsense. Just man up and admit that your connection was non existent.

[craigt3365]

6 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Yes, it was confirmed that the Russians were focusing low energy microwave radiation on the embassy. But no good evidence of health effects was found. Nada. Zip. So if you want to tie this to what's going on in Cuba, that means more nothing.

Right.  So let's see.  Low energy microwaves in Moscow.  Perhaps the same in Cuba.  Same health effects.  But right.  Nada!  Zip.

[craigt3365]

4 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Total nonsense. Just man up and admit that your connection was non existent.

It's not my connection.  People with access to more info than you and I are saying this.  I'm just reading it.  Blame them.  I'm sure you can find their email address to complain. LOL