Some improvement, but Thailand’s English proficiency remains low: report

[Gandtee]

1 hour ago, stephen tracy said:

To add to what I said in response to TEFLKrabi above, I studied Thai in BKK for 3 years and made a real effort to use it outside the classroom - getting the tones right was the most difficult part - and using it every day made progress rapidly.  Although I still live in Thailand, I stopped using my Thai on a daily basis because my workload (in which I'm forced to read Arabic most days) became so heavy and I became so lazy I just stopped bothering to use my Thai, with the exception of asking for things in a shop or restaurant.  Within one year I had lost so much that now on the odd occasion I'm forced to speak Thai, I have difficulty stringing a sentence together.  It's quite depressing.  It's a bit like going to the gym in that you put all that effort in to achieve results and as soon as you stop going, within 6 months you end up with a beer gut and bitch-tits. 

This applies to Thais returning from English speaking countries. My nieces and nephews on their return from the UK and NZ spoke good English but deteriorated over time. I asked one of them who he spoke English to? "You Uncle." Just last week I passed to them some info about a Language Club in Bangkok where Thais can practice their English or other languages on different evenings. I got a promise that at least one of them will investigate it. 

[Cadbury]

2 hours ago, JAG said:

Don't forget there was a massive (all-pervading?)  American presence in half of the country a generation ago, which I suspect more than canceled out the French influence.

I was never intending to get into a debate about the whole thing. I just thought I would pass on the relevant information.

Whatever the reasons for which Asian country has a good or bad rating it does not take away from the fact that the English schooling in Thailand does not seem to be working. Some might even think that is a good thing.

[masuk]

I've often explained to both Thais and Indonesians, that once they step outside of their own borders, no one, BUT NO ONE will understand a word they say.

They find this hard to believe.

But we live in a country where it is illegal to show English on a road sign or shop price, if it is not under the Thai  text and must be smaller.

Compare this to say, Hong Kong, India or Malaysia, where they don't have such strange restrictions.  

[Cadbury]

1 hour ago, wvavin said:

The nationality choice of English teachers have greatly contributed to the fast downfall of Thailand's English proficiency. Try asking a Filipino to pronounce fat and what they pronounce is "fart"! Next, the signature essence of the African English teacher. Do you think the Thai students are learning the real English? There are a lot more flaws but these two are obvious examples. 

The reason that Filipino teachers are the flavour of the month is because the school directors and a few select others get a kick back from the employment agencies. Nothing to do with what's good for the students.

The education system is as corrupt as the RTP, if that is possible.

Edited November 11, 2017 by Cadbury

[Cadbury]

4 hours ago, Jonnapat said:

A score of 49 would seem rather generous to me.

That is in the world rankings. In the Asian rankings they are up there with the worst. 

[dinsdale]

I'm sure if anyone could be bothered to look at the full report and full list of countries one will find Myanmar in there. Formally known as and still referred to by many nations as Burma. Burma, a former British colony.

7 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Malaysia was the only one on that list colonised by the British. Cambodia was a French colony. I wonder how they do in French speakers.

Sometimes English speakers forget that it isn't just about them.

 Malaysia, Burma, Singapore and Brunei (a British protectorate) if we're looking at colonisation  in SE Asia for the Brits. The Dutch in Indonesia, the Americans in the Philippines, and the French in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia.

[mok199]

add to this..thais inability to accept thai speaking foriengers....I say ''sign language and smiley faces for all''....its universal...and almost impossible to mess up

[silent]

4 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

Degrees are not necessarily meaningless - they can indicate a level of ability, language skills - e.g. structure, gramma vocabulary, writing theses, any didactic abilities and the ability to learn and study...... very rare in those without degrees.

Sounding like my brother spending years learning a vocabulary that only he and a select few have a clue what he's saying and well suited him to teach people with learning disabilities.......same same.

[stephen tracy]

1 minute ago, mok199 said:

add to this..thais inability to accept thai speaking foriengers....I say ''sign language and smiley faces for all''....its universal...and almost impossible to mess up

I don't reckon it's a case of them not accepting them, it's just that a significant number of foreigners learning Thai don't bother with learning the tones, which is fundamental to the listener in terms of understanding. It's fundamental to the language. This is not meant to sound pompous at all. It's just that when I was first learning no one understood me until I got the hang of the tones.  It wasn't bloody easy mind you, but if thick bugger like me can do it, I imagine pretty much anyone can. But yes, agreed, when all else fails, sign language and a smile is often enough to get by... it worked for me during a week I spent in Tokyo a few years ago, most of the time anyway. I think there was the odd occasion when people thought I was a demented freak.

[JAG]

57 minutes ago, Cadbury said:

I was never intending to get into a debate about the whole thing. I just thought I would pass on the relevant information.

Whatever the reasons for which Asian country has a good or bad rating it does not take away from the fact that the English schooling in Thailand does not seem to be working. Some might even think that is a good thing.

Not a debate really. My observation is that, unlike Thailand, many people in that generation in Vietnam had reasons to learn and use English. Their children seem to have inherited that interest.

 

You're right, English schooling here isn't working. You're right, some don't see that as a problem, as it doesn't affect them.

[djayz]

8 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

this kind of anecdotal nonsense is totally unverifiable and totally unhelpful.

I'm sure they are good and bad students and teachers at schools but the survey is about adult usage of English and anecdotal evidence only reinforces pprejudices rather tan enquire about the real causes.

I hear what you're saying and agree with you. 

The real cause is a flawed educational system in which nobody cares; nobody is repremanded and all students pass all tests... 

Basically, nobody gives a $£&*. 

 

[lvr181]

"Loas [sic] was found to have the lowest English proficiency with a score with a score of 37.56 followed by Iraq (38.12), Libya (38.61), Cambodia (40.86) and Algeria (42.11)."

 

And difficult for an English language forum?    (My bold).

[selftaopath]

17 hours ago, Sid Celery said:

 

And I'm sure they're right. Thais are usually right - even when they're wrong, they're right.

Maybe 45 is Thai?

[JAG]

9 hours ago, Cadbury said:

The reason that Filipino teachers are the flavour of the month is because the school directors and a few select others get a kick back from the employment agencies. Nothing to do with what's good for the students.

The education system is as corrupt as the RTP, if that is possible.

That's certainly true, particularly with West Africans.

Mind you it's not confined to the mainstream school system. I was looking at the names of some teachers at an online language school the other day - it looked like the nominal role for a Klingon spaceship!

Names of course are not everything, but some of  the written assessments of pupil performance were equally strange.

There is money to be made from the provision of "native" English speakers, both in mainstream schools, language schools and online, and the charlatans are fully on board!

[Prairieboy]

18 hours ago, sqwakvfr said:

Several months ago I spoke to an English Teacher in CNX.  She was Filipina(never lived in an English Speaking Country) and said most of her students(elementary school) just repeat the English words she says.  As soon the students leave her class they pretty much forget everything.  

Yes they are great 'apers' - I notice that with the young kids even preschool - they can repeat exactly what you say but have no idea what it means and then promptly forget it.

 

[mok199]

9 hours ago, stephen tracy said:

I don't reckon it's a case of them not accepting them, it's just that a significant number of foreigners learning Thai don't bother with learning the tones, which is fundamental to the listener in terms of understanding. It's fundamental to the language. This is not meant to sound pompous at all. It's just that when I was first learning no one understood me until I got the hang of the tones.  It wasn't bloody easy mind you, but if thick bugger like me can do it, I imagine pretty much anyone can. But yes, agreed, when all else fails, sign language and a smile is often enough to get by... it worked for me during a week I spent in Tokyo a few years ago, most of the time anyway. I think there was the odd occasion when people thought I was a demented freak.

yes tones are important for certain words...but if the listener is comtetant they will deduct...hmmm    mabey gung is the wrong tone but we have only 4 khow pat dishes ..gai ,moo,kai....the falang must mean shrimp....on the other side it us forenigers who each day ..dumb down our englsih to accommodate thais....eg..im sitting alone a woman sits near me...''you have wi''....I know what she means wi is wife...but I now ,don't dumb down ..I say'' I have wifi??'' she trys again ''you have wi''...I say '''I have wine''..she starts to get agitated,she trys again...I reply.''wi ,what is wi""...''ohhh you mean wife""....SHE LEAVES....thais are lazy listners...and I for one am tired of dumbing down my native language...sawadee no crap.

[stephen tracy]

1 minute ago, mok199 said:

yes tones are important for certain words...but if the listener is comtetant they will deduct...hmmm    mabey gung is the wrong tone but we have only 4 khow pat dishes ..gai ,moo,kai....the falang must mean shrimp....on the other side it us forenigers who each day ..dumb down our englsih to accommodate thais....eg..im sitting alone a woman sits near me...''you have wi''....I know what she means wi is wife...but I now ,don't dumb down ..I say'' I have wifi??'' she trys again ''you have wi''...I say '''I have wine''..she starts to get agitated,she trys again...I reply.''wi ,what is wi""...''ohhh you mean wife""....SHE LEAVES....thais are lazy listners...and I for one am tired of dumbing down my native language...sawadee no crap.

I think they're important for most words. Thai words don't have tones, every syllable of every Thai word has a tone. Of course the context of a given situation can help. 

[Happyman58]

15 hours ago, simple1 said:

Some years back my stepson attended a Thai fee paying school in Pattaya, yet his Thai English teacher couldn't converse in English. Now back in Pattaya, my Thai niece attends a Thai fee paying school, again her Thai English language teacher cannot converse in English. An example of no progression whatsoever.

Exactly How can you teach something when you dont know yourself  They are just taking money for nothing

[StevieAus]

16 hours ago, TEFLKrabi said:

For the English readers, think back to your school days. After 5-6 years of French, how fluent were you?

Well 50 years after learning it at high school French people still understand me if I have a conversation

16 hours ago, Happyman58 said:

I know but i was thinking French was not spoken as a global language. English is . The point is just imagine If a Thai person learns English and can speak Thai How valuable would they be to banks, airlines, tourist industry, government jobs The opportunities would be boundless

How happy are you when u go to hardware store for  eg   and you need help and the person who serves you can speak English? I know it makes me happy 

 

[HOOD Robin]

20 hours ago, coulson said:

It's odd that Singapore which is a native English speaking Country has a lower proficiency than some European.

 

Anyway no surprise, the current head of state believes the world should speak Thai and wants Thai nationals to teach English over Native speaking teachers.

 

Some improvements is an overstatement. Education is not the reason, if any, that proficiency is improving. It is due to the tourism industry people are forced to interact in English.

 

Those Top 10 are really laughable !

 

Top 10 "Highest" :

--------------------------

Singapore does not belong there as it is NATIVE English speaking !

Luxemburg, Germany and Austria do not belong there IMO

 

Top 10"Lowest" :

------------------------

Cambodia does NOT belong there !
For a "French" country, people speak better English there than in Thailand.....

 

[baansgr]

Thailand ranked 25th out of 30 Non Thai  speaking countries 

[BugJackBaron]

47 minutes ago, mok199 said:

yes tones are important for certain words...but if the listener is comtetant they will deduct...hmmm    mabey gung is the wrong tone but we have only 4 khow pat dishes ..gai ,moo,kai....the falang must mean shrimp....on the other side it us forenigers who each day ..dumb down our englsih to accommodate thais....eg..im sitting alone a woman sits near me...''you have wi''....I know what she means wi is wife...but I now ,don't dumb down ..I say'' I have wifi??'' she trys again ''you have wi''...I say '''I have wine''..she starts to get agitated,she trys again...I reply.''wi ,what is wi""...''ohhh you mean wife""....SHE LEAVES....thais are lazy listners...and I for one am tired of dumbing down my native language...sawadee no crap.

It's easy to believe this but it's not really true(I heard similar complaints about Korean which is also alien to English but in a different way). Try listening to a Thai who is just starting  to learn English and speaks English with no stress or intonation.

 As other posters have said, it's all about the tones. After 10 years here I have just got to a pre-intermediate stage and can hold simple conversations without  being second-guessed. Context can help but beyond the simplest things - like showing something you want to buy - well, the context needs to be set linguistically.

   For a better explanation with real examples check out Stewart Jay's youtube videos.

[mok199]

1 hour ago, BugJackBaron said:

It's easy to believe this but it's not really true(I heard similar complaints about Korean which is also alien to English but in a different way). Try listening to a Thai who is just starting  to learn English and speaks English with no stress or intonation.

 As other posters have said, it's all about the tones. After 10 years here I have just got to a pre-intermediate stage and can hold simple conversations without  being second-guessed. Context can help but beyond the simplest things - like showing something you want to buy - well, the context needs to be set linguistically.

   For a better explanation with real examples check out Stewart Jay's youtube videos.

god ..enough with the tones....thais are lazy listeners.with no desire to improve their limited English....try a sentence in thai and nasal your voice and raise and lower the words!!!..never change topics without a ''lead in''..eg if you go form food to politics,dont expect them to follow you...topics flow,and new topics take a bit of introduction...some words are important in high tone..shrimp ,nine ,and five to mention a few some are important in low tone ....but its the listener that must use his or her brain...to review...try a nasal almost nails over the chalkboard style tone..you will be fine

Edited November 12, 2017 by mok199
speliing

[Eric Loh]

1 hour ago, HOOD Robin said:

Singapore does not belong there as it is NATIVE English speaking

I am positively sure that when I was born in Singapore, my parents spoke to me in Chinese, Cantonese to be precise. None spoke in native English. 

[rotorbreeze]

22 hours ago, tso310 said:

I've found the proficiency of the English spoken in Siem Reap to be excellent. Concentrate on where it is needed.

The hawker kids have their own program to get you interested in what they are selling..like a parrot is taught to respond to certain sound patterns... I too was impressed with hawkers with their knowledge but was later informed they do not... in asking  simple off topic question...their reply was the same script learned and not responding to the off topic. Back to Thailand...why would the majority of students be taught english when the ruling parties do not want the general population to leave and earn money overseas?  Going to a english class being taught the students are not individual test...the test is in the groups formed by association of friends...usually one will speak to the teacher and other agree not knowing what the subject or question was. Keep control do not let the students know the outside English world..oh yes the group would get a pass in English... the one that knows english remains the only one...why would a English teacher fail a student when his job is being paid by the ruling class.  Students with family wealth leave Thailand to go for english classes and get a taste of European living and know how to keep this wealth of knowledge with in its family..no share secret of outside world. Perfect control same as my country with media daily telling of dangers of the ASIA and the plight of poor girls from Islan making money to send home to parents... a far larger wage than in knee high water planting rice.. seeing airport with jets and passengers landing on arrival or riding a ride in Subway or BTS... or going to a Mall in Pattaya is the lure told back home to the relatives in the trade...come I will show you how to support family with family blessings...

[Bundooman]

21 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

"This year, for the seventh time, we have compiled the EF English Proficiency Index to measure adult English proficiency around the world. This year's index ranks 80 countries and territories based on test data from more than one million adults who took the EF Standard English Test (EF SET) in 2016."

 

This collection of data is interesting but requires not to be taken too literally.T

This is an adult EL rating and a lot of education in EL takes place actually within companies themselves provided by private schools....this (TEFL) is a worldwide industry

There are extraneous factors influencing EL in Asia at present and around the world too.

One major factor isBrexit.

The perception for many Asian countries, Thailand in particular, is that now the UK is out of the picture in the EU, English is not so important. This may not be true in the long run as US/business English is the world standard but this perception pushes EL training just a step or two back in a companies training budget priorities.

Another problem is that companies seldom have the inclination to set up long term, progress-based EL courses - preferring just to tick the ISO box that covers them.

But the most serious drawback for Thailand has to be the rules and regulations surrounding private EL training companies in Thailand is a major restriction on how effective EL training can be - the obsession with employing a fixed ratio of Thai to foreign employees is a major stumbling block as are the rules allowing foreigners to start and control small companies.

visaand work permit restrictions in Thailand regarding teachers is simply archaic and bears no relation to the requirements of stting up good schools that can service Thai industry.

the result is that probably in excess of 90% of ALL teachers teaching in industry are technically working illegally.

This can't rationally be regarded as an appropriate situation fo the improvement of English within industry in Thailand. ............who despite this are now wondering why people are being so critical of so many aspects of the proposed EEC project that is attempting a major expansion of Thai industry basically with so many.feet of clay

 

 

"The perception for many Asian countries, Thailand in particular, is that now the UK is out of the picture in the EU, English is not so important."

 

On what basis, proof of serious research have you undertaken in the last eighteen months to support this outrageously ridiculous and ignorant remark?

 

What 'many Asian countries" are you referring to? how many of the 3+ billions of Asians have you verified that perception with? Considering that billions of peoples around the world, (mainly Asians), cannot read or write, let alone have access to, or understand how to use, media, computers and have never seen a phone or know how to use one, just how many Asian peoples have you actually polled? Closer to home - exactly how many Thai people have you polled? At least 50% of the population also do not own a computer, cannot read or write so don't read newspapers and even more can't speak English and would have no idea what Brexit is, let alone understand it enough to decide issues like this.

 

Do you conduct your research in Thai language or English, (or other language)? Who did you receive this information from? Where did you conduct this research, how many hours did you spend conducting it - and all in the last 18 months?

 

Also, I can assure you that the UK is not out of "any picture."

 

Absolute garbage. 

 

 

[Cadbury]

4 hours ago, JAG said:

That's certainly true, particularly with West Africans.

Mind you it's not confined to the mainstream school system. I was looking at the names of some teachers at an online language school the other day - it looked like the nominal role for a Klingon spaceship!

Names of course are not everything, but some of  the written assessments of pupil performance were equally strange.

There is money to be made from the provision of "native" English speakers, both in mainstream schools, language schools and online, and the charlatans are fully on board!

A year or two back I had a gf who was an English teacher in a vocational school. She told me all about the racket going on with the Filipino teachers and the kickbacks. She wasn't on the distribution list. Only the director and a few others were in on the cut. 

I used to watch her mark the English tests at home. Students didn't have to write anything in English. They only had to read the three answer options and tick (guess) the correct box. She seemed to spend a lot of her time away on "excursions" with the directors and other hierarchy with a few token students to make it look like they were working. 

[bkk6060]

They should recruit bar and working girls to teach it as they speak the best English.

[248900_1469958220]

20 hours ago, Happyman58 said:

I said to the step daughter. How is the English classes going at school?  She answered me through her mother because she still cant speak English . Her mother can. I am a native speaker of English and taught her mother well Step daughter said Not to good I said why what is the problem? The teacher we have is from the Philippines and she cant speak English herself. Be like a person learning to become a chef and is being taught by an electrician.

 

I was surprised even got that score because 95% of the population cant speak English  So Thai education ministry get your head out of your arse and do something about  You are going backwards

 

 

I undertook a qualification  from a Philipine Uni to meet requirements for my 'waiver' and eventual teaching licence.  Most, but not all of the other students were (not surprisingly) from the Philipines. I got a chance to see some of the work from these so called English language teachers. Their level of comprehension, writing style..skills...grammar and just general understanding were SHOCKINGLY bad. I used to have a certain level of respect for them but, after the course I feel most of them have no place teaching English. One exception would be kindergarten.  Anything beyond that is....beyond most of them. 

 

Cameroonians??? bwahahahAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Yeah, those guys are really going to set this place on fire! I dont know why Thailand didnt think of employing more of them to teach before!

[Airbagwill]

20 hours ago, brewsterbudgen said:

 

 

There is a lot more to English than grammar. Without decent pronunciation effective communication is very difficult. Non NES teachers are fine for teaching grammar but not so good for other aspects.

 

A decent TEFL course like CELTA or Trinity TESOL is far more important that just a degree.

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

 

that's not my point - certain aspects of EL can be taught by nonNESs.

I learned French without a single native speaker - to tertiary level.

I did business in France for several years and was at times mistaken for being French.

In fact one of the easons most countries don't require a degree for NES is because they are meant only to improve conversation - not teah all aspects of the language.

In Thailand the state education system is so bad a total re-teachinglearning is required after school.