You're deemed a resident of Thailand if you stay 180 days

[steven100]

16 hours ago, possum1931 said:

"there are plenty of half-wits living long time in Thailand".

Yes, the old, fat shirtless ones showing off their big titties.

just to confirm the above .....  my wife is getting old,  fat ...  and only shirtless in the garden

[rockingrobin]

1 hour ago, bandito said:

 

Pensions are not taxed or taxable in Thailand.

That is my understanding from the ministerial regulations

[simoh1490]

2 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

That is my understanding from the ministerial regulations

Private pensions, not taxable in Thailand, Link please.

[rockingrobin]

4 hours ago, stud858 said:

Does my statement sound acceptable.?

I am an Australian citizen and resident and for tax purposeses also the same by definition of gov.  I travel overseas for extended periods but always intend to return to live in my house in Australia.

So and because of the Australian tax treaty  with Thailand I am not considered a resident in Thailand for tax purposes.

 

 

Reading the relevant tax treaty and Article 4 , it would appear that due to having a permanent  home and being tax resident in Australia  , your statement sounds correct

[OJAS]

14 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Well no it isn't. They are all subject to income tax (all pensions are income). So they are included in the dual taxation agreement. 

So if "all pensions are included in the dual taxation agreement", then kindly direct me to the specific provisions in the UK/Thailand DTT where private sector occupational pensions and the State Pension are explicitly covered, since I have not been able to find them. If any such provisions do exist, then I can only assume that they have been written in invisible ink - in which case I am sure that many of us on here would appreciate your sharing with us how you managed to acquire the necessary magical powers to read such ink!

[OJAS]

17 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

Just because we're not officially permanent residents here, doesn't mean we're not permanent residents here, that old chestnut doesn't fly I'm afraid!

Indeed, there is a distinction to be made between residency for immigration purposes and residency for taxation purposes.

[rockingrobin]

11 minutes ago, OJAS said:

So if "all pensions are included in the dual taxation agreement", then kindly direct me to the specific provisions in the UK/Thailand DTT where private sector occupational pensions and the State Pension are explicitly covered, since I have not been able to find them. If any such provisions do exist, then I can only assume that they have been written in invisible ink - in which case I am sure that many of us on here would appreciate your sharing with us how you managed to acquire the necessary magical powers to read such ink!

I agree the DTT is problematic with regards occupational pensions. It would be interesting to know where the Thai revenue would place them , if at all within any of the Articles. It could be contested that as they are employment derived and thus a delayed payment for services rendered they could fall within the Article for dependent services. 

[stud858]

5 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

Tax residency is usually determined by the number of days you spend in any one country during a tax year, if you are present there for more than 180 days in each tax year you will almost certainly be considered tax resident, regardless of what your future intentions are.

But I thought the tax treaty trumps local law and stops a person having two residencies. If the treaty is honored the thai law is bypassed and for my situation Id not be taxable in Thailand after 180 days. That's what the Australian side says.  What the Thai side says about treaty needs investigation.  I feel an excursion coming up to tax office.

[OJAS]

1 hour ago, bandito said:

 Tax Law of Thailand.

In tandem with Tax Law of your home country as reconciled in the Double Taxation Agreement between the 2 countries.

[rockingrobin]

1 minute ago, stud858 said:

But I thought the tax treaty trumps local law and stops a person having two residencies. If the treaty is honored the thai law is bypassed and for my situation Id not be taxable in Thailand after 180 days. That's what the Australian side says.  What the Thai side says about treaty needs investigation.  I feel an excursion coming up to tax office.

3

Correct , the tax treaty takes precedence over domestic laws where applicable

[OJAS]

3 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

I agree the DTT is problematic with regards occupational pensions. It would be interesting to know where the Thai revenue would place them , if at all within any of the Articles. It could be contested that as they are employment derived and thus a delayed payment for services rendered they could fall within the Article for dependent services. 

As already said, public sector occupational pensions are explicitly covered by Article 19 of the UK/Thailand DTT. I do, however, agree that private sector occupational pensions and the State Pension are a grey area.

[simoh1490]

41 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

Correct , the tax treaty takes precedence over domestic laws where applicable

It's not so much a matter of taking precedence as it is that there is a secondary path that can be followed. Tax is still due and payable but can be reclaimed under a tax treaty.

[maprao]

Immigration closed all the loop holes here by reading forums.

 

They doubled the requirements for extensions based on marriage and retirement at the last increase (200k to 400k and 400k to 800k respectively) by reading how rich you all were on forums[emoji16]

 

Now you are giving them ideas on how to tax money you worked hard to earn and have already paid tax on..

 

You would be surprised at who reads these expat forums and how the information is used...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[stud858]

5 minutes ago, maprao said:

Immigration closed all the loop holes here by reading forums.

 

They doubled the requirements for extensions based on marriage and retirement at the last increase (200k to 400k and 400k to 800k respectively) by reading how rich you all were on forums

 

Now you are giving them ideas on how to tax money you worked hard to earn and have already paid tax on..

 

You would be surprised at who reads these expat forums and how the information is used...

 

 

 

 

 

 

The amount of VAT alone collected by governments is astronomically huge and easy for them. I don't think they bother too much chasing individual income taxes. There is so much money available and so much complacency. A beautiful pair.

[rockingrobin]

1 hour ago, simoh1490 said:

It's not so much a matter of taking precedence as it is that there is a secondary path that can be followed. Tax is still due and payable but can be reclaimed under a tax treaty.

No , it is not a matter of a secondary path. It is an international treaty and thus takes precedence over domestic laws where they clash

[simoh1490]

2 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

No , it is not a matter of a secondary path. It is an international treaty and thus takes precedence over domestic laws where they clash

I pay tax to the US on my social security pension payments which I reclaim under a tax treaty by filing a tax return, I have no option but to pay those taxes at source.

[rockingrobin]

34 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

I pay tax to the US on my social security pension payments which I reclaim under a tax treaty by filing a tax return, I have no option but to pay those taxes at source.

That may be so but misunderstands the purpose of DTA

Double taxation treaties are to promote cross-border trade by eliminating the taxation of the same income twice. They determine which state have the taxing rights.

[overherebc]

On 02/03/2018 at 1:28 AM, simoh1490 said:

Presumably, you mean if the pension payments are over the personal allowance, so they are going to get taxed somewhere regardless.

 

And when the UK abolishes the Personal Allowance for non-resident expats. an offshore bank account in a third country might be needed for some people perhaps, either that or QROPS for private pensions.

 

 

Do you have a date when the PA will be abolished?

[simoh1490]

4 minutes ago, overherebc said:

Do you have a date when the PA will be abolished?

There isn't a date as yet, news was that it was scheduled about two years ago I think but was cancelled at the last moment. I think it's just a matter of time.

[overherebc]

5 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

There isn't a date as yet, news was that it was scheduled about two years ago I think but was cancelled at the last moment. I think it's just a matter of time.

So you should have said 'if' not 'when.'

Any party in UK that brought that in is on a guarantee to lose any following general election.

[sometimewoodworker]

3 hours ago, OJAS said:

So if "all pensions are included in the dual taxation agreement", then kindly direct me to the specific provisions in the UK/Thailand DTT where private sector occupational pensions and the State Pension are explicitly covered, since I have not been able to find them. If any such provisions do exist, then I can only assume that they have been written in invisible ink - in which case I am sure that many of us on here would appreciate your sharing with us how you managed to acquire the necessary magical powers to read such ink!

They don't have to be explicitly covered as they are treated as income in the U.K. So as such, and due to the fact that they are taxable in the UK they are covered by the sections of the treaty that cover income tax.

 

From the Pension advisory website

 

Quote

Pension income paid to you is normally treated as earned income for income tax purposes, although you don’t pay any National Insurance contributions on your pension income.

 

[simoh1490]

23 minutes ago, overherebc said:

So you should have said 'if' not 'when.'

Any party in UK that brought that in is on a guarantee to lose any following general election.

It's not a matter of "if", it's a matter of "when", they already said they were planning to do it once, plus the US and Australia have already very recently removed theirs. And I don't know that you're reading popular opinion that well, my take is that there's a lot of resentment back home that expats have this deduction.

Edited March 3, 2018 by simoh1490

[overherebc]

59 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

It's not a matter of "if", it's a matter of "when", they already said they were planning to do it once, plus the US and Australia have already very recently removed theirs. And I don't know that you're reading popular opinion that well, my take is that there's a lot of resentment back home that expats have this deduction.

I'm sure that both have removed it to stop their expats working tax free overseas.

I really can't see the point of taxing pensioners.

Where would tax bands start?

I see it as one of the tactics to phase out gov' pensions

( OAP ) and to get all on to private pension systems, so much easier to tax.

I started private pensions, paying in, back in the 90's and even back then it was being talked about, taxing, ending or phasing out OAP's that is.

I suppose I might live long enough to see it if I'm lucky or unlucky, depends how you look at it.

[phutoie2]

2 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

It's not a matter of "if", it's a matter of "when", they already said they were planning to do it once, plus the US and Australia have already very recently removed theirs. And I don't know that you're reading popular opinion that well, my take is that there's a lot of resentment back home that expats have this deduction.

Absolute tosh, you must be another fully paid up member of the "project fear club"., the pa not being paid to UK non residents was an idea floated by G Osbourne when he was Chancellor and we all know what PM May thought of him. HMG and the SFO have much bigger fish to pursue, ie, who's money has bought London tower blocks and pension fund raiders. UK Ex pats can still sleep soundly here.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 3, 2018 by phutoie2
?

[simoh1490]

1 minute ago, phutoie2 said:

Absolute tosh, you must be another fully paid up member of the "project fear club"., the pa not being paid to UK non residents was an idea floated by G Osbourne when he was Chancellor and we all know what PM May thought of him. HMG and the SFO have much bigger fish to pursue, ie, who's money has bought London tower blocks and pension fund raiders. UK Ex pats can still sleep soundly here.

 

 

 

 

Indeed working groups were set up see if it was feasable.

An interesting read here on this subject:

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/restricting-non-residents-entitlement-to-the-uk-personal-allowance/restricting-non-residents-entitlement-to-the-uk-personal-allowance

 

Sounds bites include that the UK system is the most generous of all those reviewed 

and that the UK is out of step with most other countries in allowing it's expats to claim the PA.

 

[wordchild]

6 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

They don't have to be explicitly covered as they are treated as income in the U.K. So as such, and due to the fact that they are taxable in the UK they are covered by the sections of the treaty that cover income tax.

 

From the Pension advisory website

 

 

I am sorry but this is just tosh, you obviously have not read the treaty. As others have correctly commented above, pensions (other than certain government employee schemes) are not covered by the current UK/Thailand treaty.  So there is a (maybe remote) possibility of pension payments credited into Thailand from the U.K. being taxed again in Thailand.

[JimGant]

Quote

So there is a (maybe remote) possibility of pension payments credited into Thailand from the U.K. being taxed again in Thailand.

If so, per Article 23 of the Thai-UK tax treaty, double taxation is avoided thusly:

Quote

In the case of Thailand, United Kingdom tax payable in accordance with this Convention in respect of income from sources within the United Kingdom shall be allowed as a credit against
Thai tax payable in respect of that income. The credit shall not, however, exceed that part of the Thai tax, as computed before the credit is given, which is appropriate to such item of income.

 

[OJAS]

16 hours ago, wordchild said:

I am sorry but this is just tosh, you obviously have not read the treaty. As others have correctly commented above, pensions (other than certain government employee schemes) are not covered by the current UK/Thailand treaty.  So there is a (maybe remote) possibility of pension payments credited into Thailand from the U.K. being taxed again in Thailand.

Agreed. The absence of explicit provisions in the DTT to clarify the taxation position for private sector occupational pensions and the State Pension does, however, strike me as regrettable.

[sandyf]

17 hours ago, wordchild said:

I am sorry but this is just tosh, you obviously have not read the treaty. As others have correctly commented above, pensions (other than certain government employee schemes) are not covered by the current UK/Thailand treaty.  So there is a (maybe remote) possibility of pension payments credited into Thailand from the U.K. being taxed again in Thailand.

That is a bit strong considering you may not be right. This is an extract from a letter I received from HMRC in response to questions regarding my state pension.

 

"Please be aware if you decide to live abroad permanently, that if you have income from a
source in one country and are resident in another, you may be liable to pay tax in both
countries under their tax laws.
To avoid "double taxation" in this situation, the UK has negotiated Double Taxation (DT)
treaties with more than 100 other countries. Each treaty is called either a 'Double Taxation
Agreement" or a "Double Taxation Convention", depending on the wording of the treaty. The
United Kingdom does have a DTA with Thailand and this can be viewed in full on the website."

 

I know from the letter that the HMRC were referring to my state pension in terms of income but you are perfectly free to take your own view. You shouldn't really try and make out your view is fact when it is not that cut and dried.

[Bikeman93]

On ‎3‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 5:25 PM, Thungrat said:

180 days or more in any tax year !

A tax year in Thai is a calendar year, not same as many other countries.

 

Might complicate things further.