74 year old uncle wants to buy home with (for?) 47 year old "fiance", what can I do?

[Phil90]

I apologize in advance for the length of this post but I feel like I need to give all the background to get good advice.

My uncle is currently 74 years old and he's been living in Thailand full time since 2015.  He has had worsening memory problems for at least the last 5-10 years but has remained fairly sharp until the last 1-2 years when he's started to become forgetful, careless and to make lots of mistakes. Most recently he makes a lot of mistakes with numbers, things that would have been trivial for him in the past (he has an advanced degree in mathematics and a high IQ).  When he first moved to Thailand he thought Thai real estate purchases were a bad idea and preferred to rent.  He also insisted on a very spartan 1 bedroom studio because it was cheap.  He never wanted to upgrade to a larger nicer place (with a pool or a gym, for example).  Simply no interest.  The family couldn't even get him to hire a maid.

 

A little more than 1 year ago (late 2016) he met his now "fiance" who is almost 30 years his junior (he may have married her already and the family just doesn't know about it, how could we?).  Shortly after meeting her (no more than 3-4 months) in early 2017, the topic of real estate purchase emerged.  My uncle was considering a home in the 2M - 2.5M THB range.  I was horrified but luckily the topic subsided on its own and they decided to rent together getting a 1 year lease on a home for about 15,000 THB per month - quite a good deal I thought.  All seemed to be well until late 2017 when the topic of purchasing a business came up.  The specifics seemed bad to me but an offer was made against my advice that thankfully fell through.  Around Christmas 2017 / New Years 2018 the idea to purchase three condos to put on airBNB was floated.  Again I was horrified.  My Uncle's rationale for doing this seemed deeply flawed. He presented spreadsheet analysis, only after my urging that were supposed to demonstrate "how profitable" this would be.  They had mistakes and also seemed to contain assumptions that were too optimistic.  The projected profits in the best case scenario were minuscule amounts, i.e. "not worth the trouble and risk"! Luckily that topic faded from interest also and no purchase was made (to my knowledge).  When I asked about it a month or two later, the answer was kind of vague and non-committal but I decided to let sleeping dogs lie.

 

Now most recently, at the beginning of February 2018 my Uncle wrote me explaining how he wants to buy a home because it's "cheaper" than renting.  He originally said he thought he could buy a house so cheaply that he would be able to resell it in 3-5 years at a profit and it would be "much cheaper" than renting.  He mentioned he would get a 99 year land lease, fully transferable to his heirs.  As I started reading up on Thai real estate law and asking pointed it questions, it became clear to me that he didn't really understand all the ramifications of Thai real estate law, land leases, usufructs, the illegality of "nominee ownership", the difficulty in guaranteeing land lease renewal and transferability.  And more. He would always ignore the question when I asked who was providing legal advice, how much they are charging, and how he knows this person is competent and trustworthy.

E-mails have been going back and forth for a month now. A new situation is presented usually with a spreadsheet analysis, but the details keep changing.  The price range of the home, how long it will be kept, calculations on true total costs, etc.  The parameters have ranged from 4.8M THB - 5.8M THB.  The time he's planning to keep the home started with 3-5 years, then expanded to "maybe 10" and now it's 15.  The changes in the holding period  all seem to be attempts to demonstrate how it's "cheaper" than renting.  But all of the analysis he provided had significant errors in them (read mistaking $30,000 for $150,000, or estimating that rent inflates by 19% per annum - errors of that magnitude), and neglected many of the true costs of purchasing a home (taxes, legal advice, maintenance, etc.) and any mention of "risks" were always either dismissed or ignored.  Sometimes he explains the errors as intentional "99 year land lease is what we use in the states, I know it's 30, I only used that to make it simple", or just dismisses them as not important or relevant, "those are careless errors, they don't matter", "time value of money is irrelevant for me", etc.

 

The latest version that he has "decided" to purchase a home for 5.2M THB.  He will solve all the complications with the land lease by simply putting the home and the land in her name.  He has not yet obtained any legal advice but he is "sure it's cheap and easy to find" and that there must be a lot of options for "good legal advice for expats".  He has put down a non-refundable 200,000 THB on this home. It requires him to complete the deal within 30 days or it will be lost.  He has not addressed when he plans to seek legal advice or how he will identify a competent, trustworthy and reasonably priced advisor.

 

Needless to say I expressed my shock, alarm and disapproval to which my uncle responded that he "could not see how I could logically justify my opinion that he should not buy a house" and that I have "failed to justify this opinion with facts or logic".  He then referred to all of my objections as "throwing a bunch of s*** against the wall to see what would stick" and that "nothing has stuck that leads to the conclusion that I should not buy a house".  He then concludes that buying this home is definitely cheaper than renting.

 

He then asks for the "non-monetary reasons which support my opinion" (I have given him pages worth, many with links to news articles, legal blogs, expat blogs, etc.). He asks "Is there any piece of critical information that I am withholding" that would support my opinion.   He then goes on to suggest that if I have nothing else to add that he is "100% aware of all the pertinent facts" and he can "see no reason not to purchase the house at this point."

 

I am speechless and dumbfounded, the very e-mail he was replying to stating all of this had many pertinent facts about real estate purchases in Thailand, better more realistic analysis of the costs, lists of the risks and an explanation that simply putting land free and clear in the name of a girlfirend (or "fiance") is the worst imaginable way to do it.  I stated that over and over in at least 5-10 previous e-mails.

I am dumbfounded and speechless.  What can I do?  Does anyone have any advice?

[scubascuba3]

I haven't read it all as its too long but it's not uncommon at all. He is probably enjoying himself with a much younger lady like most guys. She also wants him to take care of her so he will paying her a wage, maybe eventually get a house built for her. Buying a house at his age makes no sense, he just likes the lady and lifestyle. What can you do about it? Nothing. Forget about inheritance, its gone

[ukrules]

Unlike the lazy git above I did read all of your post.

 

He could be 'homeless' and back to renting again within months if he buys a house in someone elses name without the protection of a paid up usufruct and / or lease registered at the land department and separated building protection which appears to be known as superficies (google it).

 

If he insists on buying a house I think a combination of the above is essential so I would advise him to contact a lawyer for detailed advice ASAP, even if it's just to protect him in the event of this womans untimely death.

 

Who is her next of kin ? If it's not your uncle then he's one motorcycle accident away from being thrown out of his house and some relative of hers moving in due to inheritance rights. Note - telling him this might prompt him to get married which is probably the last thing you want so be careful how you word it.

 

[rhodie]

Try to convince him to buy a condo. At least that can go into his name. If he is married already, at least he will get half of the proceeds of the house in a divorce. Clearly he is not thinking with his brain, as at 74 renting is the obvious option, but I am not sure what you can do to stop him. 

 

Good luck.

[theguyfromanotherforum]

It's his money and he has the right to spend it as he sees fit.

[Briggsy]

Petition a court in your home country to take control of his finances. "Ward of court", "Power of attorney", etc.

[saakura]

Your uncle is an adult, and he wants to blow away his wealth on a prostitute who will in turn give him some occassional sex (and probably push him off a balcony if he lives too long).

 

On the other hand, you will give him nothing but wait for the inheritance? Old man has made his choice!

[Phil90]

36 minutes ago, saakura said:

On the other hand, you will give him nothing but wait for the inheritance? Old man has made his choice!

I don't have a financial interest here. He has his own kids.

 

Thank you all for your input. Sounds pretty bleak.

Edited March 6, 2018 by Phil90

[Anythingleft?]

What do his own children have to say, do they share your concerns?

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[Phil90]

25 minutes ago, Anythingleft? said:

What do his own children have to say, do they share your concerns?

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One yes, the other doesn't maintain much of a role in his life. Kind of apathetic, disinterested.

[cheeryble]

You havent mentioned his assets and income, which are totally relevant.

[Phil90]

32 minutes ago, cheeryble said:

You havent mentioned his assets and income, which are totally relevant.

Why are his assets and income relevant in a discussion of trying to prevent him from being robbed of 5M THB? Anyway he has no income and he has some savings, he has enough to buy that house, however bad of an idea it is, but he isn't rich.

[poanoi]

i would have a man to man talk with him and say :

" there is the chance that the prostitute intend to scam you,

i suggest keep your assets safe and pay to play on a monthly basis at most,

to keep her loyalty & affection, cause affection end at the moment you pay up"

/end quote

[KittenKong]

Your uncle will be neither the first nor the last loopy old farang to give millions of Baht to some Thai whom he thinks loves him. He will be just one more name on a very long list.

Apart from having him declared incapable by a court I dont see that there is much you can do about it apart from watch him make a complete fool of himself and be around to lend him some money when the Thai GF has sucked him dry.

[steven100]

You only have one sensible option ....   Get him to buy a condo ( in his name )   that way he can purchase something and he won't be left standed if all goes bad.

If she is his wife then there's not that much you can do about his money ....  as it's also hers in reality.

[MaeJoMTB]

If he married her and is 75, it's all hers anyway.

She will inherit.

 

 

[crazykopite]

His best bet would be to buy a condo in his own name , he cannot own land or a house in his name but he can own a condo . I would try that avenue of persuasion but at his age he is going to do what others don’t want him to do also make sure he makes out a will. It is very easy to find out if he is legally married as it has to be registered if it’s just a monks blessing which it may well be he is not officially married. Hope you can get him sorted before he loses everything .

[tifino]

 A Condo seems well worth losing 200,000 for...

[crazykopite]

5 hours ago, MaeJoMTB said:

If he married her and is 75, it's all hers anyway.

She will inherit.

 

 

If he leaves a Thai will he can pick and choose who he wants to leave his riches to I was always under the impression if he did not make a will 50% goes to his wife and 50 % goes to his children 

[BarnicaleBob]

Your uncle is an old man in is final years and he seems to know it.  I see an old man who has found a lady to take care of him and is very grateful to her.  He wants to thank her for being there for him and would like to see that she has a place to live after he passes.  It is his money and he should be able to spend it in a way that makes him happy. 

Of course he should protect himself at the same time.  If he has not yet legally married, he should go through with the house purchase before getting married if it is his plan to be married.  When the house is purchased and placed in the ladies name and at that same time a usufruct and / or lease registered at the land department should be drawn up to protect him with a place to live.  Then if he marries her later, his rights to the property are something that he had prior to the marriage and therefore if a divorce should happen rights would stay 100% in his name. 

Finally, there is the old saying that all of us who have lived here for a while know "Never invest more than you can afford to throw away in Thailand". 

[warriorbangkok]

She'll dump him and grab it all for herself. If the house is in her name, then he has no rights whatsoever. Not even residency rights.

Love drunk and knocking on. She'll hang him out to dry and she'll make a nice profit from it. It's a classic trick.

You've tried your best. He won't listen. He'll learn the hard way or he'll die before he realizes what he's signed over.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[HerbalEd]

Post is w--a--y to l--o--n--g to read. I gave up.

Edited March 7, 2018 by HerbalEd

[InMyShadow]

I have a mate in Jomtien who is in a similar situation . Bought  a 5million baht guesthouse in her name 5 years ago, same age gap and she is still with him..she could have walked at any time . Surprised me thats for sure I thought his goose was cooked

[scubascuba3]

I have a mate in Jomtien who is in a similar situation . Bought  a 5million baht guesthouse in her name 5 years ago, same age gap and she is still with him..she could have walked at any time . Surprised me thats for sure I thought his goose was cooked

The ladies are patient, they can wait considerable time.

Nothing in this story surprises me except I'd expect her to be younger

[Thaifly88]

The 'better to buy a condo' idea raised by some posters is a much better idea, in terms of him being protected from any relationship failure. He should also establish a will in Thailand and pass the condo to her on his death. I have a friend who did this and then the relationship broke down. He then made a quick trip to the lawyer and had her name removed from the will, very easy.

If he does in fact stay with this girl for a number of years and then passes away, she can do with it what she wants - rent it out, sell it etc. If she has looked after him and provided him with company for a period (hopefully long) of time, then surely it's not unreasonable to do this. Why should she walk away with nothing ?

 

Having said all the above, I understand your concerns, but guess what, he worked all his life for what he has and is entitled to do with it whatever makes him happy. 

 

The beneficiaries of his will in farang land should take a leaf out of his book, and go to work for a few decades, save their money, and then, they too will have the pleasure of doing with it what they want in their old age.

 

[Andyfez]

I understand your concern.

I acknowledge there are risks.

But it sounds like you're trying to run his life, and are reluctant to accept the 'fiance' might be the real thing.

After all she is above marriagable age in Thailand.

 

Perhaps this is a good investment for the rest of his life. Only time will tell.

I hope he will be happy.

[1130bobs]

if you care about him.  fly over immediately and confront what is really happening.  If not, wish him luck while he still remembers who you are.

simple.  

[cheeryble]

I go to dinner with up to about a dozen friends each week.

All have Thai partners including one gay.

All have had long term relationships, have not been ripped off and will not be ripped off by their other halves. 

It's not a question of "they're willing to wait a long time", these are at least working relationships.

Caution aint bad, but I feel sorry to hear of constant disdain for the Thai as a gold digger.

Perhaps those that get bad relationships' attitudes are a reflection of themselves.

 

The OP didn't seem to think assets and income were relevant.

What could be more relevant than if the subject of the post can survive comfortably if the worst came to the worst. He has no pension?

[Destiny1990]

Tell him that he should just give all his money to his Girl she will know best how to invest it.

 

[robertson468]

18 hours ago, theguyfromanotherforum said:

It's his money and he has the right to spend it as he sees fit.

My view exactly and I have to wonder what the OP's concern is.  His Uncle's or his own possible inheritance?  I am 73 and have been living in Thailand for over 12 years now.  We built Villas, a house for ourselves and an extra Town House.  I have thoroughly enjoyed living in our own House and the rentals have provided on average 100,000 baht per month.  I trust my Thai Wife 100%, but must admit that her Family have their own very comfortable life, so was not a "fortune seeker".  We lived together for over a year, then got married and three years after that, once I was totally sure of her I then turned the business over to her.  She is 47 years old now.  People need to understand.  Some relationships will work, some will not, but it is a matter of personal judgement of the other Party is you can trust them 100%.  No doubt at the moment he will be inclined to say yes, but he only needs to read of the other disasters that get published both on this Forum and the Papers.  If he lives to say 85+ one might think this is a fair thank you for her care of him?