Applying for US Social Security benefits at Manila FBU

[Pib]

In the "makes no sense" weblink Chicksaw gave about there is one stat (see image below) I totally disagree with based on my own calling experience to the "SSA 1800 number", repeat their central 1800 number,  over the last 2 years for myself and helping others.   It says the average wait time to get a human on the line is 16 minutes.  My experience is it's more like 45 to 60 minutes if a person decides to actually wait that long.  I almost always call around 9pm-11pm Thailand time which is around 9am-11am or daylight savings time 10am-12 noon U.S east coast time.

 

But the good thing is at the very beginning of the call the SSA  interactive voice system will estimate your wait time to get a human on the line...then give you the option to leave your number and they will call back at the end of the wait time or just wait for the human to come on line while you run up a possible phone bill.  I've found the call back from the 1800 number to be very close to the estimated wait time.

 

Example: if you were told your wait time will be 45 minutes, you leave your number for call, then in approx 45 minutes you do get a human calling you back.  Now that human may not be able to answer your question but they do call back from that 1800 number.   The answers available from the human at the SSA 1800 are generally nothing more than what is available at the website....and they can usually tell you the status of an application but really can't help it resolving it as actual processing of your application (or whatever issue) is handled by other departments---not the the SSA Main Call Center.  

 

However calls to other SSA numbers, like a telephone number given for issues related to your specific social security number at the Baltimore office.  Well, those call-backs probably where they say  they will call back on 2-3 business day don't happen at a high percentage based on my experience (or have not in my calls).  In my personal experience probably only around 10%.   Well, I may need to raise that to 15-20% as just last night as I got a call-back from one of those social security number specific number reps regarding an application issue with one of my family members (an issue caused by a mistake by the Manila).  But it took Baltimore approx 5 business days to call back.  Fortunately the problem is getting resolved, but this one mistake made by Manila while taking the application during the telephone interview is going to take 2 to 3 months to correct since various SSA offices are involved in the correction process....the correction time will be longer than the 6 weeks or so it took to originally approve the application.  Correction is important as it will mean about $35 extra per month for a lifetime.  The error didn't come to light until the application was approved.  After an application is approved correction can be harder/take longer than if the errors were spotted/corrected before the application was approved.   The interviews that Manila does to take an application over the phone are definitely a good thing especially for folks clueless about the application process, but the interview can also be prone to errors by the Manila rep not correctly hearing something the applicant said during the interview, the Manila rep entering something wrong in the online application they are completing while they are interviewing you ( i.e, a typo), etc.  But every time I have got to talk to a Baltimore rep (not a SSA 1800 Call Center rep) who actually works application issues/problems I've found them to be very knowledge, friendly, and when the call is over you feel like they are truly concerned in fixing the issue as soon as possible.   I'm just glad a social security pension application only occurs once in your lifetime.   When they go through error-free and with no or little extra documentation requirement the process is smooth and fast, but when an error by some one occurs and/or extra supporting docs are required then the application process can be stressful/painful for some.  Then again, it's just a once in a lifetime event.  

 

Stat from weblink

 

[Jingthing]

I have an interesting story. I did end up opening a myssa account and the did an online application to start a claim. Then crickets. So I emailed Manila. Crickets. Then called the Baltimore international number and left my number for promised 2 day call. Crickets. So feeling frustrated I went on the help system on my myssa account and requested a 15 minute callback. They did. It's not the international service office. It in Pennsylvania but they can see your claim information. I was probably emphasis on probably able to resolve my issue on that phone call. It wouldn't work for all or complex issues though.

 

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[Pib]

How long had your application been in the system?  Technically the application might not even be looked at for 60 days but generally they are processed much faster...like within 30 to 45 days--or less.

Edited September 20, 2018 by Pib

[Langsuan Man]

I applied online and used my US address and a Majic Jack telephone number, while in Thailand. (just remember to apply during US business hours, even online)  My only interaction was with the Social Security Office that handled my US geographical area (Scranton, PA) and that was limited to a phone call to verify my start date

 

They must have some legal requirement because the lady droned on on how much I would get if it started receiving funds on several different dates and I had to agree on which date to use

   

[Jingthing]

2 hours ago, Pib said:

How long had your application been in the system?  Technically the application might not even be looked at for 60 days but generally they are processed much faster...like within 30 to 45 days--or less.

I got initial approval very quickly and a start date of payments was listed. I contacted Manila and then Baltimore because the address and phone format was messed up on MySSA and nobody had contacted me about an interview or request for documents. They did actually migrate the foreign address and phone number to MySSA. MySSA doesn't support foreign phone numbers but it does support foreign addresses (after the account has already been created with a U.S. address presumably). I was told by the domestic office that even though it says initial approval decision on MySSA, it's basically done and no interview or documents at all will be needed. The domestic office was able to fix the address problems which apparently existed in both the MySSA account and the actual benefit account. I said probably before, but now I can see definitely on that. I'll know for sure that the info about nothing further needed (interview/documents) is actually true if I get the first check on the stated date.

 

Edited September 20, 2018 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

30 minutes ago, Langsuan Man said:

I applied online and used my US address and a Majic Jack telephone number, while in Thailand. (just remember to apply during US business hours, even online)  My only interaction was with the Social Security Office that handled my US geographical area (Scranton, PA) and that was limited to a phone call to verify my start date

 

They must have some legal requirement because the lady droned on on how much I would get if it started receiving funds on several different dates and I had to agree on which date to use

   

Well that means that your annual proof of life letters are/will be sent to that U.S. address, right? That could be an issue for people actually living in Thailand. 

[Pib]

If two addresses are used like your actual physical address such as a Thailand address and another address is used for your mailing address say like a U.S. address, the Thailand address will be used to determine if/how often you get the "are you still alive" letter.    So a person could be living in say Chiang Mai which triggers a once a year "are you still alive letter" but it will be mailed to your U.S. address.  

 

I have two address in my SS file....my Bangkok foreign address for my physical/residential address and my U.S. mailing address which is an APO address here in Thailand.  All my SS mail comes to the APO address to include the are you still  alive letter.  Now when you look at the SSA regulation on how often "are you alive letters are mailed" it depends on what country your live in.....some countries are once a year such as Thailand and some are every two years....and an APO address is every two years.  However, I still get my are you alive letter once a year which tells me the "are you alive letters" frequency/requirement is keyed in on your physical address and not your mailing address.

 

[Jingthing]

I wasn't aware they will store two addresses. However, in my case  there is no ambiguity. I want them to mail those letters to Thailand.

Edited September 21, 2018 by Jingthing

[Pib]

Yes, in addition to the physical/residential address a person can have a separate mailing address.   It's part of the application, to include the online application.  If including a mailing address that is what will appear on your mySSA online account for your address but your separate residential address is still the key address on file with the SSA for determination of various things like if/how often a "are you still alive letter" gets mailed out.  Below is a redacted snapshot summary of an online application regarding addresses.

 

 

 

 

And here's a link to the SSA regulation talking the mailing of the Foreign Enforcement Program form (i.e., are you still alive form) on either an annual or biennial schedule based on where you live outside the U.S.....and  the schedule is based on a person's "residential" address on file versus mailing address on file if a person also happens to have a separate mailing address which could be U.S. or foreign.

 

https://secure.ssa.gov/apps10/poms.nsf/lnx/0302655005

[Jingthing]

Thanks. 

I don't recall that form looking like that when I recently did it.

But that could be because I wasn't interested in adding more than one address.

Yes, I'm aware some nations need to do the letter annually and some biannually.

People can watch the dates of when they expect the letter, and if it doesn't arrive, request a resend in time to hopefully avoid any cutoffs.  

 

Here's a fun related question. 

So you get the letter. 

You mail it.

Is there a way to confirm that it's been recorded that they received it?

Like on MySSA or by email to Manila FBU?

 

It seems to me they should consider alternative ways of doing this that are more efficient. Like Fidelity brokerage does voice print ID. They could get voiceprints of people and then people could call during a annual period confirming their I.D. and accomplish the same proof of life. Yeah, I know, they won't. 

Edited September 21, 2018 by Jingthing

[Langsuan Man]

On 9/20/2018 at 9:29 AM, Jingthing said:

Well that means that your annual proof of life letters are/will be sent to that U.S. address, right? That could be an issue for people actually living in Thailand. 

I assume so, even though I have never received the "are you alive letter" in 4 years, and if I had,  it would have been forwarded with my mail like everything else is when I am in Thailand 

[ubonjoe]

13 hours ago, Langsuan Man said:

I assume so, even though I have never received the "are you alive letter" in 4 years, and if I had,  it would have been forwarded with my mail like everything else is when I am in Thailand 

That is probably because the  SSA does not know you are living here. They only send them to those living outside the states.

[Pib]

At LSM,

   I expect you only have a U.S. address(es) on file with the SSA.  Like ubonjoe said SSA don't even know you are living in Thailand. 

 

     If/when SSA ever finds out you really live in Thailand then they'll probably send you another form asking to confirm, mention the requirement to report any address change of over 30 days, possible benefit suspension until the address thing is cleared up, etc.  But I expect the chance of that occurring are very low until maybe someday in the future  SSA computers start talking to Customs/Border Control computers kinda like how apparently Australia SSA-equivalent agency computers talk to each other and usually know when a pensioner has left Oz and hasn't returned with x-period....I remember several posts over the years by Oz ex-residents talking that.

 

 

[NancyL]

1 hour ago, Pib said:

At LSM,

   I expect you only have a U.S. address(es) on file with the SSA.  Like ubonjoe said SSA don't even know you are living in Thailand. 

 

     If/when SSA ever finds out you really live in Thailand then they'll probably send you another form asking to confirm, mention the requirement to report any address change of over 30 days, possible benefit suspension until the address thing is cleared up, etc.  But I expect the chance of that occurring are very low until maybe someday in the future  SSA computers start talking to Customs/Border Control computers kinda like how apparently Australia SSA-equivalent agency computers talk to each other and usually know when a pensioner has left Oz and hasn't returned with x-period....I remember several posts over the years by Oz ex-residents talking that.

 

 

Fortunately, good old USG still pays our SS no matter where we live in the world, unlike the Brits who can have their annual increases frozen if they move to certain parts of the world (like Thailand) and I think the Aussies can run into problems in getting their pensions if they're not in Oz for so many months a year.  

[billd766]

1 hour ago, NancyL said:

Fortunately, good old USG still pays our SS no matter where we live in the world, unlike the Brits who can have their annual increases frozen if they move to certain parts of the world (like Thailand) and I think the Aussies can run into problems in getting their pensions if they're not in Oz for so many months a year.  

 

OTOH the good old US government taxes its citizens on ALL their income and savings worldwide. The UK government doesn't, but I can't comment on the Aussies as I have no idea of their rules.

[marcusarelus]

On 9/21/2018 at 11:43 AM, Jingthing said:

Thanks. 

I don't recall that form looking like that when I recently did it.

But that could be because I wasn't interested in adding more than one address.

Yes, I'm aware some nations need to do the letter annually and some biannually.

People can watch the dates of when they expect the letter, and if it doesn't arrive, request a resend in time to hopefully avoid any cutoffs.  

 

Here's a fun related question. 

So you get the letter. 

You mail it.

Is there a way to confirm that it's been recorded that they received it?

Like on MySSA or by email to Manila FBU?

 

It seems to me they should consider alternative ways of doing this that are more efficient. Like Fidelity brokerage does voice print ID. They could get voiceprints of people and then people could call during a annual period confirming their I.D. and accomplish the same proof of life. Yeah, I know, they won't. 

I don't really know but I think you are asking if you EMS it.  I get a receipt and email receipt and phone receipt using EMS to mail the "I'm not dead yet letter."

[NancyL]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

 

OTOH the good old US government taxes its citizens on ALL their income and savings worldwide. The UK government doesn't, but I can't comment on the Aussies as I have no idea of their rules.

The U.S. has something like 77 tax treaties with different countries, including one with Thailand that gives U.S. citizens some important benefits.  Canned tax software like TurboTax doesn't take these treaties into consideration.  You should seek the advice of an tax accountant familiar with U.S. expat rules for your country of residence.

[Pib]

3 hours ago, NancyL said:

Fortunately, good old USG still pays our SS no matter where we live in the world, unlike the Brits who can have their annual increases frozen if they move to certain parts of the world (like Thailand) and I think the Aussies can run into problems in getting their pensions if they're not in Oz for so many months a year.  

USG does "not" pay regardless of where you live in the world.  There are some countries where payments can not be made to and the payment will be withheld until you move to a country the USG is authorized to make a payment to.   Various countries have payment restrictions.  And the SSA has various other restrictions depending on your citizenship status, how the pension was originally earned (your record or a spouse), etc.  And with Manila's area of responsibility covering a lot of countries with all types of pensioners with all kinda of situations I expect it can get very complicated for some cases.   See below AARP and SSA weblinks/partial quotes for more info.

 

https://www.aarp.org/work/social-security/question-and-answer/countries-to-which-the-united-states-will-not-send-social-security-payments/

 

 

https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10137.pdf

[billd766]

4 hours ago, NancyL said:

The U.S. has something like 77 tax treaties with different countries, including one with Thailand that gives U.S. citizens some important benefits.  Canned tax software like TurboTax doesn't take these treaties into consideration.  You should seek the advice of an tax accountant familiar with U.S. expat rules for your country of residence.

 

The good news for me is that I am a Brit and retired and so I have no other source of income apart from my pensions. The bad news is that they froze my state pensions and tax the other two.

[Chicksaw]

An update since I started this topic.

 

I just received my first SS payment, 7 months back pay actually into my US credit union. So, hooray, I am officially a geezer.

 

What I've learned from the process which started in Dec. last year with a phone interview Bkk-Manila:
1. Have patience. SS is slow. I am not blaming them. They are known to be short-staffed. And they are not highly automated.

2. I called Manila and Baltimore multiple times since last Dec. Each call took several tries (sometimes dozens) before getting a live person. Did these calls help expedite my case? Good question, I don't know. It did though make me feel better to talk to someone.

3. Best times to call? Manila around 8am there. I couldn't figure anything for Baltimore. Seemed random if someone would pick up.

4. Emails to Manila never got answered. Ah, well.

5. SS doesn't like early claimants like me to work. I had to submit a doc from my employer saying that the part-time work I am still doing is less than 45hrs/month. That's their limit. I am not sure what happens beyond.

6. I had another issue which slowed my case down. I get 3000b/mth from Thai SS so had to send an official doc, in Thai, to Manila to this effect. That ended up being a double whammy. First the doc disappeared for official translation somewhere in Baltimore for about 4 months. Then I got docked a "windfall" penalty, about $30 from my monthly pay, for what I am getting from Thailand. Ok, not much. 

 

That's all I can think of. To summarize, the process isn't difficult. It's just long and you have to be patient and dogged. Don't expect to retire, call up FBU and start enjoying benefits in a month. Figure nearly a year.

 

Good luck to everybody in the process.

 

 

[Rhys]

Going through the same process, working 44 hours per month, for a few more months, then away with that  BS... I have send the letter as well.... and waiting...for a further update...

 

 

[Pib]

Chicksaw,

   Great post....totally agree.

 

   From my own application and helping a neighbor and family member through their applications I definitely agree that SS can be slow whenever certain additional documentation is required or something goes wrong like an error on the application....an error caused by the applicant or by Manila taking the application (i.e., a typo, misheard/misunderstood something, etc).  Manila causing an error (which they admit to) is an issue I'm working right for a family member.   

 

     Regarding additional docs slowing the application's final approval that can be simply the time to get some straight forth docs "mailed" to Manila as they are now getting less receptive to receiving scanned/emailed docs.  And for some docs it may need to be the original or embassy notarized copy is required, like a passport, birth certificate, naturalization certificate, etc.  Or your case which also required SSA to translate the doc.   The additional docs requirement is going to vary from individual to individual. 

 

   Many applicants will not have to provide any additional docs like me when I applied through Manila a couple years ago...smooth and quick application.  But some applicants may have to provide original or a certify copy of some docs, others may just have to complete some standard SSA form(s) and mail it in, some may have to provide foreign income docs like you did, etc.  Yeap, the additional docs will vary from individual to individual/case to case.....and can range from easy to get/complete to far from being easy.

 

     And communicating with Manila or Baltimore can be extremely frustrating....in many ways it's like how if something goes into a "black hole" in outer space such as even light going into a black hole that light will not come out again.   Like if trying to communicate with Manila or Baltimore via email or phone....well, your inbound communication goes into the SS but no communication may ever come back out.  Or if a response is received it simply does not answer the question your asked or is vague and/or cryptic. 

 

    I've also found in dealing with Manila a lot will also depend on the claims examiner (a.k.a., rep) handling your application/case.  I must assume all reps have similar big workloads, but some reps seem much more efficient than others....and better able & willing to communicate.  And since the Manila reps rotate social security number assignments each year (a workload management thing and to ensure any rep don't get too cozy with any beneficiary), the rep who you previously dealt with regarding your pension will be a different rep each year.   So, if you had a great experience with a rep one year ago in resolving an issue, well, if the same issue needs resolving again a year later you will probably be dealing with a different rep and your experience may be very different.   That email address you had for a rep a year ago may be of no help for this year's issue.....you just need to email/call their central/catch all email address/phone number.

 

   Yeap, I'm sure social security folks at Manila and Baltimore have big workloads but I sure wish the ability to communicate with them was better.  Like being able to talk to the "right" human on their end vs a rep who is just taking all calls and supposedly relays a message to the rep/section handling your case which may never respond.  Oh yea, I'm pretty sure if Manila feels the answer can be easily found on their website then you are probably not going to get any answer or rarely get an answer.  But the communications I've been talking about deal with application-specific issues; not just general questions as I know Manila really don't have the time to answer general questions which a person can look-up for themselves on the web.

 

   Thank goodness a person's application for pension only needs to occur once in their life time.   My recommendation for those applicants which are U.S. citizens by birth and do not have any foreign income like Thai social security is to apply online and not apply through Manila. Applying through Manila can be problematic in waiting for a telephone interview and errors possibly caused during the telephone interview. Now if applying online you may still be contacted by Manila, but if your application is straight-forth you may not be contacted by Manila or Baltimore...your application simply gets approved in a month or so. 

 

  And welcome to the geezer club....I'm sure you'll be an outstanding and hopefully long living geezer.

 

Cheers,

    Pib

 

 

 

 

     

 

     

 

 

    

 

[Chicksaw]

Thanks, Pib.

 

One other thing from being on the phone with Baltimore yesterday. They send out "are you alive" letters first in Jan., and then, if no response, again in June.

 

I am not sure if these letters will be from Manila or Baltimore. In any case, it might be good to make a note that if nothing's been received by Feb. then get in touch with FBU. No reason to panic as there's the second letter midyear. But why wait?

 

Not responding to both will obviously lead to discontinuation of benefits and a massive pain in reviving them.

[marcusarelus]

12 minutes ago, Chicksaw said:

Thanks, Pib.

 

One other thing from being on the phone with Baltimore yesterday. They send out "are you alive" letters first in Jan., and then, if no response, again in June.

 

I am not sure if these letters will be from Manila or Baltimore. In any case, it might be good to make a note that if nothing's been received by Feb. then get in touch with FBU. No reason to panic as there's the second letter midyear. But why wait?

 

Not responding to both will obviously lead to discontinuation of benefits and a massive pain in reviving them.

They send them out in June in Thailand and again in October.

 

Don't think Baltimore has a clue. 

Edited October 20, 2018 by marcusarelus

[Jingthing]

My experience which I would highly recommend if you can do it and you have a simple straightforward application with no complications like still working, etc. Also suppose direct deposit to US account rather than Bangkok Bank which complicates things.

 

First get a Myssa account online if you can. Of course you'll need a US address and credit history for that.

 

Then apply online.

I got almost instant initial approval on that and no delay on my start date. Which you can see on the Myssa account.

 

However I didn't understand the phrase initial approval and assumed more would be needed like an interview and copies of ID documents.

 

I was wrong. The initial approval turned out to be the final approval.

 

I ended applying almost last minute and didn't miss any payment or have any delay in payment.

 

Keep in mind though that unless you were born on the first few days of a month the start will be for the following month. Also the payments are made end of month not beginning. In other words a September payment won't be paid until October.

 

Also Thai phone numbers won't be supported in Myssa so don't freak out if it's wrong. Also try to keep your Thai address as short as possible. Mine was cut off in both Myssa and the benefit record. I had them edit it later to fit.

 

To clarify this weirdness yes I added more text successfully on the application but important stuff like province was actuality cut off on the record. Again it was messed up both on the myssa profile and the benefit account record. The address they use to actually mail you stuff so very important.

 

To talk to Baltimore go ahead and leave a message. They do return calls within 2 or 3 days.

 

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[Pib]

1 hour ago, Chicksaw said:

Thanks, Pib.

 

One other thing from being on the phone with Baltimore yesterday. They send out "are you alive" letters first in Jan., and then, if no response, again in June.

 

I am not sure if these letters will be from Manila or Baltimore. In any case, it might be good to make a note that if nothing's been received by Feb. then get in touch with FBU. No reason to panic as there's the second letter midyear. But why wait?

 

Not responding to both will obviously lead to discontinuation of benefits and a massive pain in reviving them.

They are sent/rec'd in the May/June time frame....they come from Baltimore.  You have 60 days  to respond.  If Baltimore doesn't  get a response around Sep they send out a second notice asking for your to confirm if you are still alive within 45 days.  If you don't respond to that one, then in Jan you get a third notice that you have not responded to two notices and if you don't respond right away your benefit payments will be suspended beginning the Feb payment.  

 

Below are some partial quotes/extracts from the SSA regulation regarding the Foreign Enforcement Program (FEP) which we lovingly call are the Dead or Alive Letters.

Quote

 

-1st Notice: The instructions for the initial Foreign Enforcement mailing in May/June of each year request that the form be returned in 60 days.

-2nd Notice: A second notice is usually mailed in September to those beneficiaries identified in the
Nonresponder File who did not return their FEQs in the initial 60 days.  Request a reply in 45 days.

- 3rd Notice: This letter is mailed about mid‐January and includes a warning explaining that if the FEQ form is not received right away, their benefits will stop with the February payment ﴾January benefits﴿.

 

 

 

 

[Pib]

47 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

 

To talk to Baltimore go ahead and leave a message. They do return calls within 2 or 3 days.

 

My experience is the promised returned call in 2 to 3 days happens around 20% of the time.

[Jingthing]

My experience is the promised returned call in 2 to 3 days happens around 20% of the time.

OK. Not my experience.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Chicksaw]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

First get a Myssa account online if you can. Of course you'll need a US address and credit history for that.

Yep, that's the problem. I thought at first to use my brother's address like I do for Fidelity. But then thought that this might screw things up in future with SSA assuming that I live at that address and never completed the mySSA process.

 

Interesting point here. SSA obviously has access to part of my tax records. How do I know? I never once in the application process sent them my credit union details but payments came right in there. The only mention of this ac. was in the initial interview when the Manila guy asked if I would like payments to my US ac. or Thailand. I said US to my credit union and he evidently knew about it, never was asked or sent the ac. number. The only place they could have got the ac. details would be my tax return.

 

Which also means they know my home address as recorded in my US tax return, obviously Thailand. So bottom line, do not try any monkey business with SSA, they crosscheck with other US gov agencies.

 

57 minutes ago, Pib said:

-1st Notice: The instructions for the initial Foreign Enforcement mailing in May/June of each year request that the form be returned in 60 days.

-2nd Notice: A second notice is usually mailed in September to those beneficiaries identified in the
Nonresponder File who did not return their FEQs in the initial 60 days.  Request a reply in 45 days.

- 3rd Notice: This letter is mailed about mid‐January and includes a warning explaining that if the FEQ form is not received right away, their benefits will stop with the February payment ﴾January benefits﴿. 

Great info, Pib. The lady last night obviously didn't know.  I haven't yet (I believe) missed anything from SSA. However, based on above, if I don't get an "you alive?" inquiry by July I will be calling both Manila and Baltimore leaving a message, Hi it's me I am not dead.

[Jingthing]

Well my recent experience with the address issue with MySSA.

I think the U.S. address you use must match what's on your current credit report, which mine did. If you can't get past the credit report barrier, you simply can't open a MySSA account.

Open that before the online application.

Preferably years before. But I opened mine basically last minute.

 

For the online application part of it, that supports entering a foreign address, but like I said, be careful, and keep it on the shorter side or it might get cut off. Even my Thai zip code was cut off. 

 

The record on the MySSA profile will then reflect your Thai address. Physical letters will come to your Thai address unless you change your address later.

 

Yes, S.S. should have your correct current address of residence, whether that's in the U.S. or abroad. As I did this, they do.  

Edited October 20, 2018 by Jingthing