Con man Or is he just outsmarted me?

[thesetat2013]

Let me propose a question about business in Thailand. Even when dealing with a farang. 

I couple of years ago, a friend bought into a gogo bar in Pattaya. Not seemingly a lot of money... 10% in shares. The owner of the bar is well connected with both the thai government and the local police, possibly even with the military. The total of the shares are split between a few foreigners... Each owning a small percentage. Since the major investor and the owner of the gogo bar never went into the bar and left all management into the hands of Thai girls, my friend stepped in and started to make some changes to improve business and improve the atmosphere of the bar at his own expense. He never did this himself. He never worked in the bar. However, he was there nightly having a few beers and watching how the business was operating. The owner never complained because it was not his money being spent. The other shareholders never think or care about this small investment and rarely make an appearance into Thailand. The owner has been secretive as to the actual expenses and income for the bar, showing only the things that can be easily verified by asking a worker. Requests by my friend to the owner about information regarding the other shareholders has been either ignored or insufficient. 

 

Now you have a short history to help understand the present situation. 

The owner of the bar has claimed now that the bar will close by the owner of the building for failure to pay a mil rent. Then he claims the bar was sold to someone else who will rent the same space and the bars name may change as well. This will cut any legal agreement my friend has with the owner concerning his shares and he will lose all. He has threatened my friend with a ban from the bar as well as threats to have him arrested and deported and blacklisted from Thailand. As to the owners claims about the rent, it is possible that there is collusion with the owner of the building and that this is just a means to gain 100% shares again and not lose anything with the bar. As for the threats. My friend never actually did any work there. So threats about having him arrested and blacklisted are probably on that, threats.  My friend has tried to find a lawyer but is so far unable to find anyone competent to talk with about his options. But, I feel this is a con game played by the owner to gain full control and to keep all the other shareholders money. 

Sorry this was a long read. But my friend is desperate for some advice and insight to his options. Including any legal advice or referrals. 

 

To the moderators, please move this to any and all appropriate forums for the best results in replies. There is a time issue involved in my friends loss of everything. 

 

 

[johng]

Sorry he is totally screwed, put it down to an expensive education as to why not to invest in "most" Thai business.

 

The % share of a bar/go-gos "scam" has been going on for ever.

[janclaes47]

I have always said, doing business with Thais is the way to go..................if you want to lose money

[simoh1490]

The same scam has been operated hundreds of times in Thailand. I know ex-customers from Nana Plaza in the late 1990's who lost millions courtesy of Richard who was an ex-SAS Mitty type who claimed to sell shares in the business, there was no shortage of buyers - he eventually flew the coop and ended up back in Plymouth where he lives still!

[FritsSikkink]

"Con man Or is he just outsmarted me?" My friend .........

 

If the bar is sold and he took 100% of the proceeds out of the company while not 100% owner, you have a case of fraud.

 

[thesetat2013]

2 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

"Con man Or is he just outsmarted me?" My friend .........

 

If the bar is sold and he took 100% of the proceeds out of the company while not 100% owner, you have a case of fraud.

 

Do you say the even though the owner of the property closed the doors due to non payment of rent? Because then the owner can claim it's closed... and get new lease with different name on bar.. and reopen with full ownership again. 

[thesetat2013]

13 minutes ago, janclaes47 said:

I have always said, doing business with Thais is the way to go..................if you want to lose money

Irrelevant reply as the owner of the bar is a foreigner

[FritsSikkink]

36 minutes ago, thesetat2013 said:

Do you say the even though the owner of the property closed the doors due to non payment of rent? Because then the owner can claim it's closed... and get new lease with different name on bar.. and reopen with full ownership again. 

He can get a new lease with a new company on the bar but that doesn't mean that the other company stops to exist. Do you have paperwork of the shares of the company?

[poanoi]

what i have found out in life was that my instinct never, not once, failed me.

i havnt reacted in accordance with my instinct and suffer from that,

but my instinct never failed, so if your instinct says he ripped you off,

he most certainly did

[NancyL]

The time for your friend to have seen a lawyer was when he was considering investment in the business, not after he's on the losing end of the business shutting down.  The major partner should have been sharing financial statements with the other owners, which would have been spelled out in a partnership agreement, along with any recourse if the major partner failed to perform his duties properly, as in not paying the rent.  

 

Is there a way for the other partners to get together and act as one party to challenge what is happening?  This is what Hubby and I did when, in our young stupid days of just starting with investing, we invested in a "Real Estate Limited Partnership" when we lived in Texas.  Turns out the managing partner wasn't paying the property taxes on land that was suppose to be subdivided and sold as a housing development.  Yet, he was collecting the tax money from the other partners and sending us semi-annual reports of various roadblocks (turns out all were fake) as to why the land couldn't be subdivided and developed just yet, but soon, very soon.

 

Eventually, some of the limited partners started digging and found the managing partner wasn't paying the property taxes.  They went to the county prosecutor who did nothing, but these proactive limited partners got the other partners together and, with the concurrence of the other partners, took over the development and eventually we all got some level of compensation.  Not what was promised when the shyster got us into the Limited Partnership, but at least we didn't lose as much money as we would have if he'd been allowed to continue.

[janclaes47]

1 hour ago, thesetat2013 said:

Irrelevant reply as the owner of the bar is a foreigner

That would be a first that a foreigner can own a bar in Thailand.

[Brewster67]

I don't see why you are having a problem finding a lawyer... Just get your friend to walk into any lawyer's office and say you want to bring a case of fraud before the court and the lawyer should request to the court for the defendant to bring in ALL documentation pertaining to shareholders, share sale transactions, rent payments and proof of arrears and also to subpoena the building owner to make a legal statement before the court.

 

But first the lawyer should contact the major shareholder and let him know that this is the next step, I will bet my last dollar he will NOT want to step into a court room and will quickly attempt to pay your friend off.

 

As for being banned from the bar, that is the last place I would want to be, it is very easy to be followed out of a bar by people with sinister intentions.

[NancyL]

Perhaps the OP's friend is trying to hire a lawyer who will take the case on contingency.  They don't work that way here.  They want an upfront deposit and bill by the hour.  

[thesetat2013]

3 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

He can get a new lease with a new company on the bar but that doesn't mean that the other company stops to exist. Do you have paperwork of the shares of the company?

He has a legal contract agreement for his shares. i have seen it

[Unsane]

1 minute ago, thesetat2013 said:

He has a legal contract agreement for his shares. i have seen it

Could it go belly up and your 'friend' is also liable for any unpaid debts?  I don't know, that's why I'm asking.

[thesetat2013]

3 hours ago, NancyL said:

Is there a way for the other partners to get together and act as one party to challenge what is happening?

As I stated. Getting that information is proving difficult as the bar owner is reluctant to provide these details now. 

[Crossy]

 

6 hours ago, thesetat2013 said:

He has a legal contract agreement for his shares. i have seen it

So did all the "shareholders" in a certain Mel Brooks movie (definitely worth a watch, the remake is a pale imitation):-

 

 

Company goes bust, shares are worth zero, QED

 

 

[thesetat2013]

4 hours ago, thesetat2013 said:

Do you say the even though the owner of the property closed the doors due to non payment of rent? Because then the owner can claim it's closed... and get new lease with different name on bar.. and reopen with full ownership again. 

Yes..

[simoh1490]

3 hours ago, janclaes47 said:

That would be a first that a foreigner can own a bar in Thailand.

There are significant numbers of businesses in Thailand, including bars, that are owned by foreigners, mostly Americans under the Amity Treaty rules.

[janclaes47]

1 minute ago, simoh1490 said:

There are significant numbers of businesses in Thailand, including bars, that are owned by foreigners, mostly Americans under the Amity Treaty rules.

Really?

 

I don't know for Americans under the amity treaty, as they are only a very very small part of foreigners active in Thailand, but ALL other foreigners can not get a bar license or own more than 49% of the company that can own a bar.

 

I therefore also very much doubt that a significant number of bars is owned by a company run under the amity treaty.

[simoh1490]

10 minutes ago, janclaes47 said:

Really?

 

I don't know for Americans under the amity treaty, as they are only a very very small part of foreigners active in Thailand, but ALL other foreigners can not get a bar license or own more than 49% of the company that can own a bar.

 

I therefore also very much doubt that a significant number of bars is owned by a company run under the amity treaty.

I was responding to your statement where you wrote that a foreign-owned bar would be a first and clearly there are many such businesses, exactly how many constitutes a significant number, is subjective. In Chiang Mai I can think of two such businesses, one that is very popular and has five or six branches, I imagine in Phuket and Bangkok there must be loads. And then of course there's always  William Heinecke who is now a naturalised Thai but was born and raised as an American and subsequently grew one of Thailand's largest and most successful conglomerates, Minor Group, they own lots and lots of bars:  http://www.minorinternational.com/Home/Index.php

 

https://www.interactivethailand.com/corporate/foreign-business-ownership-in-thailand/

[thesetat2013]

21 minutes ago, janclaes47 said:

Really?

 

I don't know for Americans under the amity treaty, as they are only a very very small part of foreigners active in Thailand, but ALL other foreigners can not get a bar license or own more than 49% of the company that can own a bar.

 

I therefore also very much doubt that a significant number of bars is owned by a company run under the amity treaty.

i think this is irrelevant.. The owner I don't know whether he is american or not.. If he is not, then he is using a thais name for paperwork. Even if he is not american but owns 49% and sells off some of his %. He is still the major investor and calls the shots. 

Either way, the problem here still exists

[KittenKong]

It's a complete mystery to me why anyone would ever get involved in any sort of business venture in Thailand. Nothing but downsides.

[cyberfarang]

6 hours ago, thesetat2013 said:

He has a legal contract agreement for his shares. i have seen it

Has he? Who actually drew up the contract for him? Was this done via a lawyer?

 

It doesn`t appear your alleged friend has much, if any, ammunition to tackle the owner with. Even if he does, the legal fees could well outweigh what he paid for his 10% share in this bar, a business he does not seem to know much about, doesn`t even know who the other share holders are or what the bar`s income is.

 

Sorry, your friend sounds like a right wally to me. Can`t imagine he`ll get far with this, he may just as well write it off.

 

BTW, he`d be wise to peruse that contract more closely, there maybe liabilities attached to it.

 

 

[JAZZDOG]

3 hours ago, KittenKong said:

It's a complete mystery to me why anyone would ever get involved in any sort of business venture in Thailand. Nothing but downsides.

No mystery, I bought a company owning a business and I have earned in excess of my expectations from day one. Key was I didn't buy a bar/gogo.

[JAZZDOG]

Bad idea from the jump, move on and learn. Something that has served me well over the years. Be it real estate, business, car, boat , whatever, Concentrate as well about the day you will someday sell as much as the day you buy. Once you really think through how you are going to sell down the road the decision to buy or not becomes much clearer. In your friends case selling down the road would have been so cluttered with question marks he most likely would have passed.

[FritsSikkink]

7 hours ago, KittenKong said:

It's a complete mystery to me why anyone would ever get involved in any sort of business venture in Thailand. Nothing but downsides.

Nonsense

[FritsSikkink]

11 hours ago, thesetat2013 said:

As I stated. Getting that information is proving difficult as the bar owner is reluctant to provide these details now. 

Get a lawyer

[cornishcarlos]

17 hours ago, thesetat2013 said:

I couple of years ago, a friend bought into a gogo bar in Pattaya

 

I stopped reading there....

[starky]

Well both actually, he is a conman and he has outsmarted you.