Too old for Thailand?

[poanoi]

......sounds lovely, but death sounds a whole lot more attractive then needing

my arse wiped and powdered

[colinneil]

42 minutes ago, neeray said:

Colin, this is the first post of yours where you did not mention your dual duty, hard working, great caring wife. I always enjoy reading your tributes to this fine Thai woman.

Sorry mate getting old, i surely missed that out, not intentional i assure you.

As i have stated before, i would be lost without her, she is my rock.

[NancyL]

2 minutes ago, poanoi said:

......sounds lovely, but death sounds a whole lot more attractive then needing

my arse wiped and powdered

That's a sentiment Hubby expressed recently, as in "if I ever get to that point just take me out and shoot me."  Instead, I said if it ever got to that point, I'd check him into McKean where their flock of nursing trainees descend on the patients each morning to give baths.  My friend who is bedbound there says it's the high point of his morning to have half a dozen young giggling Thai ladies swoop into his room and handle his privates.  When I pointed this out, Hubby asked if he could check in now.

[poanoi]

i guess thats a half glass empty/full kinda thing, but i am mr negative and

stand by my principle

Edited May 7, 2018 by poanoi

[Dick Crank]

17 minutes ago, poanoi said:

......sounds lovely, but death sounds a whole lot more attractive then needing

my arse wiped and powdered

Everything is worth experiencing at least once

[JLCrab]

10 minutes ago, poanoi said:

i guess thats a half glass empty/full kinda thing, but i am mr negative and

stand by my principle

... as long as you can still stand, anyway.

[Juan B Tong]

Come live in Thailand.

Lots of old gimp duffers where I live.

Many wheelchaired, many three wheel motorbikes.

Cheaper than the West.

No place is perfect

If it doesn't work you can always go home.

 

Or do a jumper! (Ha ha)

 

 

[colinneil]

20 minutes ago, poanoi said:

......sounds lovely, but death sounds a whole lot more attractive then needing

my arse wiped and powdered

Well i disagree with you, being paraplegic i need that done for me.

 

[Muzarella]

If you are an American Vet, or you have health insurance from your country that is valid here, Thailand is the best place to be if you are an old man, even disable. I know many good Thai women that will take care very well of all your needs. If not married, or living with you, many Thai women are willing to take care of elders for a monthly salary of not more than $500.00 a month, but it is easy to find a nice woman for a commited relationship, if you are not looking for somebody 30 years younger than your self. Also there are many retirement/care resorts in Thailand a lot more afordable than those in Western countries, with services and amenities only available in a lot more expensive places in other countries. If your retirement or monthly income is about $2,500.00 a month you will get your NO visa and retirement extension without any problem, even easier if you are an American citizen. With that income, you can get a nice small home or condohotel apartment on non tourist areas, close to all services, and even your own transportation with driver. If you need any info about, just send me a message. I live in Phayao, 30 minutes driving to Chiang Rai, probably one of the best and cheapest areas to retire in Thailand.

[JLCrab]

12 minutes ago, Muzarella said:

<snip> but it is easy to find a nice woman for a commited relationship, if you are not looking for somebody 30 years younger than your self. <snip2>

Well OK -- I wasn't looking but she did the looking.

[Dick Crank]

1 hour ago, NancyL said:

Yes, as I pointed out you can arrange 24/7 care from certified nursing assistants for about $2500 per month.  The labor cost is cheap, but you also have to factor the cost of specialized equipment and this can get expensive here.  For example, a manual patient hoist that sells  $700 - 1000 in the U.S., with free delivery, will run 50,000 - 70,000 baht here because of import duty.  Same thing with hospital beds.

 

But, if someone is anticipated to need long-term care, it can be arranged for less than half the cost of what you'd pay in the U.S.  Remember, too, that the assisted living centers in Chiang Mai are a very good bargain compared with the U.S.  The most popular Dok Kaew Gardens, part of McKean Rehab Center, is 32,000 baht/month for someone who still has some independence and 45,000 baht/month for higher care, as for those with dementia. The high-end assisted living center here is Vivo Bene, like staying in a five star resort.  The cost there ranges from 80,000 -100,000 baht/month.  Less than $4000.  Ten years ago my father was in a facility in the U.S. that cost $5000 per month and was nowhere near as nice as Vivo Bene, maybe more like Dok Kaew.  That was ten years ago; I shutter to think what it costs now. 

 

If someone is bedbound and needs tube feeding, daily dressing changes and other regular nursing services, they can live at McKean Rehab Center.  I've assisted one man who had high care needs and was in a very nice, private room at McKean.  His monthly bills were about 80,000 baht/month for daily wound changes, daily physical therapy, bedbaths, and other attention needed because he couldn't leave the bed.   Less than $3000, about 1/3 what this level of service would have cost in the U.S. and chances are it would have been given by disinterested caregivers.  At McKean, the nurses are sweet and kind and have a nice rapport with the patients.

 

Yet for many expats, especially those living pension-check-to-pension-check just on a gov't pension, these numbers seem astronomical.  There are many retirees here getting by on 30,000 - 40,000 per month.  This is not a realistic income to support assisted care here and people in this situation should have a plan in place to return to their home countries when the time comes so they can avail themselves of public assistance.

Thanks nancy. Vivo bene is within my means. That gives me the option of coming and checking out the facility and checking in at some point if I ever needed to.

 

knowing I had somewhere potentially to go makes all the difference.

 

I remember being in bkk several years and just the thought of not being able to manage and being stuck in a rented apt somewhere with no options seemed like a nightmare.

[janclaes47]

5 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

I believe Nancy quoted a monthly salary of THB10,000/15,000 per person rather than a total for the pair, both working 12 hour shifts, which seems like a sensible salary.

 

And Colinneil quoted a price of 450 - 500 Baht/day for a helper ( you notice no "s" at the end ?), and a working day is 12 hours average in Thailand isn't it?

 

Now multiply this with the numbers of days there are in a month.

 

By the way, I lately get quoted quite a lot by someone on who's ignore list I am.

 

 

[1FinickyOne]

It really depends on the extent of your disability - and what you want from life... it is not going to be much fun anywhere for all of us as we age and have health issues to deal with... but there are many variables such as health insurance and what your financial situation might be... surely, one variable is that hiring an assistant here, a nurse or live in companion is going to be far cheaper...

 

I would start by making lists of pros and cons - - not sure when you were here last, but the internet brings a lot of entertainment into your home here... not sure where you are, but the warm weather, getting out of a city center and being in lush vegetation and tropical surroundings sure does my mood well as opposed to a bleak winter... 

 

feel free to pm me if you need help with your decision making process.

[Farang99]

I am 83 and have lived here since I retired, 20 years ago. Living here cured my main health problem, but of course, getting older means more and more health problems will occur. Even so (and concerned about the cost of future health problems), I have a better quality of life than anything I could have in the UK.

 

And remember the saying (was it Groucho or WC Fields?) A man is as old as the woman he feels.

[Gecko123]

OP:

Thailand is aging very rapidly. Demand for elder care is increasing, and the cost for caregivers is likely to increase as well. If you moved over here, you would not only be looking for companionship, but someone to function as a caregiver. These dual needs make the odds of you prematurely leaping into a relationship above average, which is risky. As you yourself said earlier, it takes time to find out whether someone is trustworthy, and because of your age and your mobility problems, you may not have the luxury of taking time to discover someone's true nature.

 

There is a guy in my area who seems to have established a relationship similar to what you are dreaming of, i.e., in exchange for having built her a house, presumably paying all living expenses, and buying a life insurance policy which will provide for her after he passes, she has agreed to take care of him. The problem is that his wife plays cards and dominoes all day while the guy, who suffers from untreated diabetes, whiles away his time playing video games, smoking, drinking, and for all intents and purposes, waiting to die. The wife doesn't seem to have any awareness of there being any wifely duty to intervene medically on his behalf.

 

My sense is that you already know the answer to your questions, and you can probably guess based on the above comments what I think about the advisability of your plan. Ability to learn a new language in your late 60's early 70's is something else to consider. I moved here in my early 50's, not waiting until I was older, out of many of the fears of moving later in life which have already been mentioned. Don't enjoy being in the position to discourage dreams, but sometimes you just have to accept that the ship has already sailed.

[murraynz]

14 hours ago, Hummin said:

If I ever get singel at that age, I am going to find a nurse who can take care of me, pay her little bit over average wages, rent her a room in my house, and let her take me to massage and other fysioterapy places for my well being. Call in day care in house ;-) 

 

At least she have to keep me alive and happy to keep her job. 

as above, im 67 and of good health, but if that changes, i can afford to pay a livein nurse{seperate room and bathroom}.

i wouldnt reccommend moving to thailand ,if your health is not so good....better to stay in home country where there will be subsisdised healthcare or assistance..

unfortunately, most of us dont /wont get family support, like thai family give to the elderly...

[English Engineer]

I am currently building houses here in Hua Hin which are fully designed to be wheel chair friendly and with very low running cost. We have an area for a nurse to live. Cost for care is much cheaper here we would expect to pay around 30k per month for live in nurse. The climate in Thailand is also better for long term health.

[natway09]

You have raised some very interesting points in your post.

Having had the joy of working living in Thailand for 30 tears & obviously intermingle with fellow

expats every day I see some who are almost at the "existing stage".

Every person is different but from what I see many as they get older & pretty well given up the tits & bum show viewings  & if their health issues precludes say a golf game once a week many get a bit bitter & grumpy & some who have some disabilities pretty much live in a small apartment alone.

Here is the crunch,,if you are aware of health problems already  unless you have extended Thai family who

you can pretty much guarantee will look after you &  very good medical insurance please think the 

situation through before jumping on a plane back to Land of Smiles.

The place can bite & can be very lonely even when surrounded by masses of people.

On the other hand if you gotta go,,,,u gotta go somewhere

[PGSan]

Thank you, Nancy, for the very useful information and data about ageing and termination (or your choice of euphemism:-).  

 

Does anyone know anywhere in Central or SE Thailand that is anything like McKean?  Or anything like the other more or less luxurious places around Chiang Mai.

 

Thanks for any information.

[The Theory]

20 hours ago, NancyL said:

you'll see links to documents that list the assisted living facilities near Chiang Mai and their monthly costs. 

Nancy, I could not find any monthly cost in those 3 pages. Either I don’t see well or it’s not there.

[8OA8]

20 hours ago, NancyL said:

I'm involved with Lanna Care Net, an informal group of expats that assist other expats who have difficulties, usually medical problems in Chiang Mai.  http://www.lannacarenet.org/lessons-learned-at-the-end-of-life/

 

If you look at the page I posted from the LCN website, under "Lesson Two", you'll see links to documents that list the assisted living facilities near Chiang Mai and their monthly costs.  Chiang Mai seems to have better options than other parts of Thailand.  But, all of these facilities are outside the center of town and it's an effort for a resident to come into town to enjoy restaurants or shopping.  It can be done, but I wish there were organized assisted living options right in town, so the residents could easily get to malls and restaurants.

 

I know many western retirees living here who have some degree of a mobility problem.  But, few people come here already disabled.  Usually, they develop the problem after they've been here for time and have had a chance to build their own group of friends and acquaintances who can help or at least put them in touch with potential caregivers.  

 

That being said, foreign retirees who come to rely on assistance from hired caregivers in their home can find themselves very vulnerable to financial exploitation.  Often, they trust a caregiver with their ATM and PIN number to go pay bills and the results can be predictable.  

 

Some retirees have found a good Thai wife and extended family who promise to care for him for the rest of his life at home.  What they don't realize, however, is the difficulty of caring for a large man without special equipment -- the average Thai home isn't handicap friendly.  Also, they usually lack knowledge to cook easy-to-chew and digest food appealing to westerners.  Thai people think that rice porridge is the correct food for old people.

Ive looked at the information in the provided links and thanks for sharing.

I wonder if the people continue to pay their ever increasing health insurance plan on top of those monthly living costs as shown in the care survey grid? 

[JLCrab]

While I know it is the mantra on here that an extended Thai family will look after your elderly needs, I want my extended Thai family to be too busy with their own lives to do so as a necessity. With professional care readily available as long as you're willing to pay a reasonable price, I don't see why they should have to except in small doses.

Edited May 7, 2018 by JLCrab

[masuk]

One other factor with getting old is the increased need for prescription medicines.

As I recently mentioned on these pages, my Australian purchased medicine has now finished, and I'm paying over the counter prices in Chiang Mai.  My medicines bill has jumped from $28 per month to $135.00.

With a 20% drop in the exchange rate of Thai Baht to Oz$ over recent years, it's certainly getting me worried.

As for mobility, the 8 to 10inch drop-offs from path to road makes it impossible for wheel chairs, leg disabilities, walking sticks to climb down.

[The manic]

21 hours ago, Dick Crank said:

How do you cope with necessities, cooking, daily tasks? Is it easy to hire assistants for that sort of thing and how much does that kind of help cost?

Yes. My friend is 72 and has a long time carer and sexual partener who he pays.

[Odysseus123]

37 minutes ago, masuk said:

One other factor with getting old is the increased need for prescription medicines.

As I recently mentioned on these pages, my Australian purchased medicine has now finished, and I'm paying over the counter prices in Chiang Mai.  My medicines bill has jumped from $28 per month to $135.00.

With a 20% drop in the exchange rate of Thai Baht to Oz$ over recent years, it's certainly getting me worried.

As for mobility, the 8 to 10inch drop-offs from path to road makes it impossible for wheel chairs, leg disabilities, walking sticks to climb down.

Yes.

 

I found it very difficult to get about in my last few months in Thailand.

 

I was also worried about the level of medical expertise and,as it turns out,I had every right to be.

 

The hot and humid weather meant that I tended to stay in an air conditioned room all day.Whereas now I live in a temperate part of the east coast of New South Wales,Australia.

 

I was none to sure about my Thai family either and became rather wary about the constant proclamations that the Thai always looked after the elderly.Some did and some did not.

[Sprigger]

Trouble with most posters on this topic is they have foolishly burnt their bridges with their more affluent home land. Now as they grow older and the party days are a distant memory, the reality and fear are coming home to roost. Never burn your bridges 6 months about is the ideal situation. 

[Old Croc]

I came to Thailand at age 62 knowing that some long term health problems would become a problem eventually.  I knew I couldn't rely on any family care in my own country (all deceased or living elsewhere) and  the only prospect for me, when I got to the stage of needing full time care, was entering the death zone - otherwise known as a nursing home. In Australia these abominations have become less about care for the elderly, more about owner's profit. I watched my mother slowly deteriorate, living on an oxygen machine, in one for years. At one stage she told me she hadn't showered for days because she didn't want the staff, a male, North African migrant, to wash her!  She later died after falling in the bathroom and lying on the tiles for hours waiting for help.

Western countries are more wheelchair friendly, but if you are past the stage of wheeling around the streets chasing a social life, the western death camps can be depressing.

My plan was to find a good Thai lady to live with on the understanding that she would look after me whatever may come, and in return she would inherit all my assets upon my demise. (I have bank accounts and income from several pension funds in Australia) She is aware she will be considerably well off eventually. She is 17 years younger. Our relationship is much more than just this agreement.

My income comfortably covers everything we need, including household, her family and whatever else she requires. It also covers my significant hospital and medication bills.  I have bought a house, car, bikes, furniture, etc, all in her name.  I do have legal tenure for life. 

In 2013, sooner than expected,  I had a major health crisis which left me bedridden for months and now, for nearly five years, in a wheelchair. For a while my lady had to wipe my arse and powder me, etc. (Not pleasant, but infinitely preferable to taking a high dive! That's only for people who have died mentally!)

Now approaching my 70th birthday I'm able to look after all my own personal needs and, although not readily able to scoot around the streets or bars, am quite happy with my lot.

When I came here I was already using a cane to walk and found high curbs and steps difficult to negotiate. Then, as now, in a chair, I found places I could access easily. They do exist in Thailand. When out and about, others look at restaurants for what it offers gastronomically, I look at the access to see if it's worth a visit. There are many westerners in wheelchairs here leading active lives. 

My world here now mainly revolves around internet TV, or sitting outside in our exotic garden with the view of mountains, farmland, buffalo and the occasional elephant wandering by. Sure beats playing bingo in a depressing asylum back home. 

If I deteriorate to the stage where I need complete nursing care, I would consider somewhere like the facility in CM to live out my days. It would be my lady's decision on whether I go there or stay at home in her care.

I know of two single men in their 80's living on Phuket who have young carers looking after them. Not sure of salary, but in the region of 20,000. I believe one has been promised the house when he goes.

My current social life consists of hospital (and Immigration) visits, with only very occasional restaurant meals. A couple of mates are coming up from Australia in the next few days to help celebrate the birthday. No doubt my medical situation will be set back somewhat.

All in all I'm much happier and  better off here, although I do have the resources to cover all eventualities. It's for individuals to assess what is the best option for themselves. It's not one size fits all. 

[The Fugitive]

Yes.
 
I found it very difficult to get about in my last few months in Thailand.
 
I was also worried about the level of medical expertise and,as it turns out,I had every right to be.
 
The hot and humid weather meant that I tended to stay in an air conditioned room all day.Whereas now I live in a temperate part of the east coast of New South Wales,Australia.
 
I was none to sure about my Thai family either and became rather wary about the constant proclamations that the Thai always looked after the elderly.Some did and some did not.

Thank you for this practical and honest post. Certainly food for thought.

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[JLCrab]

27 minutes ago, Odysseus123 said:

<snip>

I was also worried about the level of medical expertise and,as it turns out,I had every right to be.

<snip2>

Well I've been here almost 15 years and I am a little envious of you guys who know so much more about the Thai medical system than I do because -- unlike yourselves -- I have had next to no first-hand exposure to the Thai medical system except one orthopedic surgery that went quite well.

[The Fugitive]

I came to Thailand at age 62 knowing that some long term health problems would become a problem eventually.  I knew I couldn't rely on any family care in my own country (all deceased or living elsewhere) and  the only prospect for me, when I got to the stage of needing full time care, was entering the death zone - otherwise known as a nursing home. In Australia these abominations have become less about care for the elderly, more about owner's profit. I watched my mother slowly deteriorate, living on an oxygen machine, in one for years. At one stage she told me she hadn't showered for days because she didn't want the staff, a male, North African migrant, to wash her!  She later died after falling in the bathroom and lying on the tiles for hours waiting for help.
Western countries are more wheelchair friendly, but if you are past the stage of wheeling around the streets chasing a social life, the western death camps can be depressing.
My plan was to find a good Thai lady to live with on the understanding that she would look after me whatever may come, and in return she would inherit all my assets upon my demise. (I have bank accounts and income from several pension funds in Australia) She is aware she will be considerably well off eventually. She is 17 years younger. Our relationship is much more than just this agreement.
My income comfortably covers everything we need, including household, her family and whatever else she requires. It also covers my significant hospital and medication bills.  I have bought a house, car, bikes, furniture, etc, all in her name.  I do have legal tenure for life. 
In 2013, sooner than expected,  I had a major health crisis which left me bedridden for months and now, for nearly five years, in a wheelchair. For a while my lady had to wipe my arse and powder me, etc. (Not pleasant, but infinitely preferable to taking a high dive! That's only for people who have died mentally!)
Now approaching my 70th birthday I'm able to look after all my own personal needs and, although not readily able to scoot around the streets or bars, am quite happy with my lot.
When I came here I was already using a cane to walk and found high curbs and steps difficult to negotiate. Then, as now, in a chair, I found places I could access easily. They do exist in Thailand. When out and about, others look at restaurants for what it offers gastronomically, I look at the access to see if it's worth a visit. There are many westerners in wheelchairs here leading active lives. 
My world here now mainly revolves around internet TV, or sitting outside in our exotic garden with the view of mountains, farmland, buffalo and the occasional elephant wandering by. Sure beats playing bingo in a depressing asylum back home. 
If I deteriorate to the stage where I need complete nursing care, I would consider somewhere like the facility in CM to live out my days. It would be my lady's decision on whether I go there or stay at home in her care.
I know of two single men in their 80's living on Phuket who have young carers looking after them. Not sure of salary, but in the region of 20,000. I believe one has been promised the house when he goes.
My current social life consists of hospital (and Immigration) visits, with only very occasional restaurant meals. A couple of mates are coming up from Australia in the next few days to help celebrate the birthday. No doubt my medical situation will be set back somewhat.
All in all I'm much happier and  better off here, although I do have the resources to cover all eventualities. It's for individuals to assess what is the best option for themselves. It's not one size fits all. 

Thank you for your post. Many of us will be in a similar situation at some point. I am pleased your health improved.

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