Testosterone, steroids, etc.

WaveHunter · March 31, 2019

1 minute ago, mokwit said:

Yes that is the one.

Thanks! If it is back in distribution, maybe it will show up here in Pattaya. If not, perhaps a bus trip into the "big City" might be in order ????

mokwit · March 31, 2019

Yes, but Proviron was ALWAYS from Brazil manufactured for Thai market. TurkishProviron only appeared after the shortage. Could have been legit alternative from Bayer or could have been grey market. Bayer told me P out of stock untiol Q2 2019 - never mentioned Turkish alternative. Don't know provenece of Testoviron available before.

Edited March 31, 2019 by mokwit

WaveHunter · March 31, 2019

1 minute ago, mokwit said:

Yes, but Proviron was ALWAYS from Brazil manufactured for Thai market. TurkishProviron only appeared after the shortage. Could have been legit alternative from Bayer or could have been grey market. Don't know provenece of Testoviron available before.

My understanding is that Bayer has been re-organizing their distribution centers worldwide and that supposedly accounts for the shortages for the last 8 months. It's not just testosterone but as you mentioned, proviron, and even good old Bayer Aspirin. I got that tidbit of information from "Sheryl", the incredibly well-informed Mod here on ThaiVisa.

WaveHunter · April 1, 2019

17 hours ago, hyku1147 said:

Morning wood is a sign that T and E are in the safe range.

Now that's a good benchmark that I think everyone can agree on ????

WaveHunter · April 1, 2019

Concerning OPTIMUM blood values while on TRT

Everybody who has their blood tested knows the recommended reference ranges but I thought it would be interesting to discuss optimum ranges since they are often far different. I've done a lot of reading on the subject but am interested in what other think. This will definitely be a debatable topic ????

Here is my list (i.e.: my personal targets). I am not going to validate/defend the numbers now but will do so if they are open to debate. If they are age-dependent, I'll note that. I hope others will chime in because optimal levels are very much a debatable topic and different points of view could be illuminating for all of us.

As a benchmark, this chart shows the typical "normal" blood test reference ranges for Total Test, Free Test, and SHBG you are likely to see. It's based on a general male population cross-sectional study I found.

Here is a chart that is the basis for how I derive the optimal values. It shows the Total Testosterone levels of men in the bottom five and ten percentiles as well as the Testosterone levels of the men in the top 95%. Again, It's based on a general male population cross-sectional study I found. Obviously, I shoot for the 95th percentile ????

And here is a list of other related blood test value that I personally consider to be my target values (in no particular order or relevancy to TRT):

VITAMIN D3: 50 - 70 ng/dL
HDL CHOLESTEROL: above 55 mg/dL
LDL CHOLESTEROL: Under 100mg/dL
TRIGLYCERIDES TARGET: Under 100mg/d
GLUCOSE: 70-85 mg/dL (fasting)
Insulin: 5mg/dl (fasting)
Total Cholesterol: 180-200mg/dL
Total Cholesterol / HDL Optimum Ratio = 3.5
TRIGLYCERIDES/HDL ratio: under 1.8
DHEA-s: 350-490 μg/dL
Estradiol: 26-30 pg/mL
Total Testosterone: 900 ng/dL
Free Testosterone: 20-25 pg/mL
VITAMIN B12: TARGET: above 600 ng/dL (really only an issue for Vegans)
IGF: 350-400
Red Blood Count: 4.15 - 5.8
Hematocrit:
BUN: 6-20
Creatinine: 0.7-1.2
2-Hour Insulin Glucose Challenge Test
- Glucose: 80mg/dl (resting), not above 110-120mg/dl after 1, 2 hr checks
- Insulin: less than 5mg/dl (fasting), not above 30mg/dl after 1,2 hr checks

Edited April 1, 2019 by WaveHunter

WaveHunter · April 1, 2019

forgot to fill in hematocrit; should be 42-54%

eezergood · April 2, 2019

On 3/30/2019 at 8:47 AM, TDCNINJA said:

One and the same.

This guys is doing amazing work with vets also! Super interesting field he works in .....

TDCNINJA · April 3, 2019

I have a few questions for you guys:

I am waiting on my police clearance to arrive. If it arrives on time, I will be in Phuket around May 1.

Does anyone know where I can purchase Testosterone Cypionate?

I've only used the American style vials. How do you use those 250mg vials that you have to break off the glass tops?

Is it hard to find labs in Phuket (Chalong) that do sensitive estradiol assays?

Thanks in advance

eezergood · April 3, 2019

9 minutes ago, TDCNINJA said:

I have a few questions for you guys:

I am waiting on my police clearance to arrive. If it arrives on time, I will be in Phuket around May 1.

Does anyone know where I can purchase Testosterone Cypionate?

I've only used the American style vials. How do you use those 250mg vials that you have to break off the glass tops?

Is it hard to find labs in Phuket (Chalong) that do sensitive estradiol assays?

Thanks in advance

Im in Phuket - pm me buddy

mokwit · April 3, 2019

14 minutes ago, TDCNINJA said:

I have a few questions for you guys:

I am waiting on my police clearance to arrive. If it arrives on time, I will be in Phuket around May 1.

Does anyone know where I can purchase Testosterone Cypionate?

I've only used the American style vials. How do you use those 250mg vials that you have to break off the glass tops?

Is it hard to find labs in Phuket (Chalong) that do sensitive estradiol assays?

Thanks in advance

As far as I am aware legit pharma grade Cypionate is local brand Cypionax, Pharma enanthate is Bayer Testoviron (coming out of short supply) and Rotexmedica.

I think no sensitive estrogen from local lab - I could not get in Bangkok but ask if maybe can send to Singapore which is what I think was done with my DHT @bt4000.

I am told best to use a plastic tube like a pen barrel to break off

Edited April 3, 2019 by mokwit

WaveHunter · April 3, 2019

1 hour ago, TDCNINJA said:

I have a few questions for you guys:

I am waiting on my police clearance to arrive. If it arrives on time, I will be in Phuket around May 1.

Does anyone know where I can purchase Testosterone Cypionate?

I've only used the American style vials. How do you use those 250mg vials that you have to break off the glass tops?

Is it hard to find labs in Phuket (Chalong) that do sensitive estradiol assays?

Thanks in advance

Here is how to use one-use ampules: Those one-use "break-open" ampules scared me a lot at first LOL. My first concern was glass chards getting in the solution when you break open the ampule. In the US, they sell special syringe needles that filter out the glass chards, but they are not available in Thailand. According to my Thai doctor, there is very little chance of getting glass chards into your injection syringe and it's not something to worry about. Still makes me a bit concerned but...what are ya gonna do. I've been using ampules for about a year now and have had no issues.

The other thing I found out is that it's very easy to cut your thumb when you break open the ampule if you do it improperly...and it hurts like a son-of-a-bitch; it's like a paper-cut type of pain, times 100...OUCH!! When you break open a ampule you want to be sure that the green dot on the ampule is facing away from you (that's where it has been pre-scored for opening). What I do to protect myself more is use the barrel of a 3ml syringe to hold the ampule (the ampule top fits snugly inside the barrel). That way, when you snap open the ampule, the break occurs inside the barrel, thus your thumb is protected. It's wise to wipe the ampule with an alcohol pad prior to snapping them open. You open them with a quick snapping motion.

Since the ampules contain 1ml of solution which is more than a single dose for TRT users, what you do is draw out the contents of the ampule into a syringe with an LONG 18g needle (long needle so you can get deep enough into ampules to get all solution without having to tilt ampules too much), and then transfer your dose to another syringe for injection and carefully cap the drawing syringe to keep it sterile for future doses. Naturally you need to store the drawing syringe at room temperature. Best to put it back in the sterile wrapper just to keep it dust-free. As for the injection syringe, personally I find insulin syringes perfect for sub-Q injections (1ml syringe with 25, 26 or even 27 gauge needles). I use Terumo U-100 syringes (1mL, 27G, 1/2"). I've heard of some people using an even finer gauge needle (up to 31 gauge) but I think 27 gauge is just as good. 27-gauge is a very fine needle but the oil-based solution still flows fairly well. Dosed injection takes about 10 seconds.

NOTE: The reason you have to draw with a larger bore 18 gauge needle is that it's almost impossible to draw out an oil based solution without anything finer gauged. You can inject with a finer gauge but you can't draw out with one.

And of course, it goes without saying, be a responsible guy and dispose of opened ampules, and used syringes/needles in a Sharpes container.

Edited April 3, 2019 by WaveHunter

WaveHunter · April 3, 2019

1 hour ago, TDCNINJA said:

I have a few questions for you guys:

I am waiting on my police clearance to arrive. If it arrives on time, I will be in Phuket around May 1.

Does anyone know where I can purchase Testosterone Cypionate?

I've only used the American style vials. How do you use those 250mg vials that you have to break off the glass tops?

Is it hard to find labs in Phuket (Chalong) that do sensitive estradiol assays?

Thanks in advance

Regarding availability of Testosterone Cypionate: I think you'll find it difficult to find outside of the USA. Most injectable testosterone here is Thailand is testosterone enanthate. For all intents and purposes, it is the same. The only real difference is simply that Enanthate is manufactured widely throughout the world, while cypionate is less common outside the USA.

If you want to get real technical, the only real difference pharmacologically is that Enanthate has a 7-carbon ester chain while cypionate has an 8-carbon ester chain. The more carbons the ester group has, the more soluble in oil and the less soluble in water it becomes. As a result, cypionate has a slightly slower release and longer active life (10-12 days vs 8-10 days). In practical terms it is not a big difference. Also, due to being one atom lighter, enanthate has more testosterone per mg. The difference is insignificant though, perhaps a few milligrams amount of steroid more.

The only other difference that I can think of is that Enanthate is suspended in sesame oil; cypionate is suspended in cottonseed oil. So, I dunno, maybe some people might be allergic to sesame oil???

Edited April 3, 2019 by WaveHunter

Ks45672 · April 3, 2019

5 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

Here is how to use one-use ampules: Those one-use "break-open" ampules scared me a lot at first LOL. My first concern was glass chards getting in the solution when you break open the ampule. In the US, they sell special syringe needles that filter out the glass chards, but they are not available in Thailand. According to my Thai doctor, there is very little chance of getting glass chards into your injection syringe and it's not something to worry about. Still makes me a bit concerned but...what are ya gonna do. I've been using ampules for about a year now and have had no issues.

The other thing I found out is that it's very easy to cut your thumb when you break open the ampule if you do it improperly...and it hurts like a son-of-a-bitch; it's like a paper-cut type of pain, times 100...OUCH!! When you break open a ampule you want to be sure that the green dot on the ampule is facing away from you (that's where it has been pre-scored for opening). What I do to protect myself more is use the barrel of a 3ml syringe to hold the ampule (the ampule top fits snugly inside the barrel). That way, when you snap open the ampule, the break occurs inside the barrel, thus your thumb is protected. It's wise to wipe the ampule with an alcohol pad prior to snapping them open. You open them with a quick snapping motion.

Since the ampules contain 1ml of solution which is more than a single dose for TRT users, what you do is draw out the contents of the ampule into a syringe with an LONG 18g needle (long needle so you can get deep enough into ampules to get all solution without having to tilt ampules too much), and then transfer your dose to another syringe for injection and carefully cap the drawing syringe to keep it sterile for future doses. Naturally you need to store the drawing syringe at room temperature. Best to put it back in the sterile wrapper just to keep it dust-free. As for the injection syringe, personally I find insulin syringes perfect for sub-Q injections (1ml syringe with 25, 26 or even 27 gauge needles). I use Terumo U-100 syringes (1mL, 27G, 1/2"). I've heard of some people using an even finer gauge needle (up to 31 gauge) but I think 27 gauge is just as good. 27-gauge is a very fine needle but the oil-based solution still flows fairly well. Dosed injection takes about 10 seconds.

NOTE: The reason you have to draw with a larger bore 18 gauge needle is that it's almost impossible to draw out an oil based solution without anything finer gauged. You can inject with a finer gauge but you can't draw out with one.

And of course, it goes without saying, be a responsible guy and dispose of opened ampules, and used syringes/needles in a Sharpes container.

I can draw and inject with a 25g

Breaking amps is easy

They are scored along a weak point where they're designed to break

I usually chop the top of with the dull side of a kitchen knife but have used keys and even 10thb coins in the past and all worked fine

NightSky · April 3, 2019

On 3/31/2019 at 12:31 PM, NightSky said:

Should I first increase vitamin d to normal levels and try to increase t naturally?

Will that reverse the gyno symptoms or should I go straight to trt?

im just 40’s with no kids and so preferable to maintain natural production for as long as possible but I need to reverse early signs of gyno

Any ideas what I should expect to be prescribed? Any thoughts appreciated.

I had my follow up and was prescribed 2 months of danazol to try to reduce gyno symptoms.

The doc offered a choice of this med or a t injection every month

do they start you on a monthly injection normally as routine or should it be 2 a month or more?

i chose the danazol to begin with see how that goes since In my case it is a good choice for gyno. Its meant to lower shbh, block estrogen receptors in the boobs and increase free t levels even though it might reduce hormone production overall

I got hold of tamoxifen from a store in case I need that later too.

If my t and e ratios don’t go back over time after finishing danazol I will go for testoviron every 7-10 days although my doc seemed to suggest once monthly which was confusing

anyhow im trying danazol for gyno to begin with.

Edited April 3, 2019 by NightSky

WaveHunter · April 4, 2019

8 hours ago, NightSky said:

I had my follow up and was prescribed 2 months of danazol to try to reduce gyno symptoms.

The doc offered a choice of this med or a t injection every month

do they start you on a monthly injection normally as routine or should it be 2 a month or more?

i chose the danazol to begin with see how that goes since In my case it is a good choice for gyno. Its meant to lower shbh, block estrogen receptors in the boobs and increase free t levels even though it might reduce hormone production overall

I got hold of tamoxifen from a store in case I need that later too.

If my t and e ratios don’t go back over time after finishing danazol I will go for testoviron every 7-10 days although my doc seemed to suggest once monthly which was confusing

anyhow im trying danazol for gyno to begin with.

Not sure if you are addressing this to me or someone else. I don't know much about Danazol (vs Testosterone injections) other than it is supposed to do what you say.

As for testosterone, if your doctor is saying once a month, he is probably planning for you to use Testosterone undecanoate. Since it has a significantly longer half life of 18-24 days whereas enanthate (i.e.: Testoviron) is 4-5 days, you only need one injection of undecanoate per month so that's the biggest advantage of the two. Enanthate on the other hand should be injected once a week, or better is to split up weekly dosage into two injections per week.

The disadvantage of undecanoate is that it is more costly than enanthate. I'm not sure how easy it is to buy on your own in a pharmacy, so you may only be able to get it through a hospital and that could prove VERY expensive.

As for undecanoate's efficacy and safety profile, they've been well studied and just as good as Enanthate (i.e.: Testoviron). (see https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19225035).

The pharmaceutical company NEBIDO is the main supplier of undecanoate. Their website is https://www.nebido.com/en/patients/. They explain the drug in more detail but keep in mind their positive statements are obviously biased. I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing but obviously they are not going express any negative views about their own product.

This is just my personal opinion but if I were to choose one or the other I would choose Enanthate since it is cheaper, readily available in Thai pharmacies, and for all intents and purposes just as effective. Don't be put off by the frequency of injections. If you self-inject (very easy to learn to do) and you do it sub-cutaneously, it very quick to do and painless.

Edited April 4, 2019 by WaveHunter

TDCNINJA · April 5, 2019

This injectable testosterone preparation is better known as Nebido and is used in Europe and Scandinavian countries. Recently, Aveed of Endo Pharmaceuticals has become available in the US. Theoretically, it is a perfect formulation because it has a very long half-life and is injected only once every 10 to 14 weeks.68 In practice, many men who have used it claim to suffer from the normal ‘valleys’ expected from a longer acting testosterone ester losing its effectiveness toward weeks 7–10. It has also anecdotally been found to rarely raise testosterone levels above the midrange of ‘normal’ (when measured between 4-8 weeks into therapy). What is most concerning is the idea of having higher estrogen with very little exogenous testosterone left from the original injection while waiting for the next injection to come. Aveed as of a recent report, is now allowing clinicians to titrate therapy by decreasing the duration between injections.

It should also be noted Aveed’s website offers a very stern warning of the risk of “serious pulmonary microembolism (POME) reactions and anaphylaxis” upon injection. This is due to the chemical particulates in the injectable formulation (to extend its half-life) being potentially harmful to some users.

Campbell, Jay. The Definitive Testosterone Replacement Therapy MANual: How to Optimize Your Testosterone for Lifelong Health and Happiness (pp. 63-64). Archangel Ink. Kindle Edition.

Edited April 5, 2019 by TDCNINJA

Destiny1990 · April 5, 2019

8 minutes ago, TDCNINJA said:

This injectable testosterone preparation is better known as Nebido and is used in Europe and Scandinavian countries. Recently, Aveed of Endo Pharmaceuticals has become available in the US. Theoretically, it is a perfect formulation because it has a very long half-life and is injected only once every 10 to 14 weeks.68 In practice, many men who have used it claim to suffer from the normal ‘valleys’ expected from a longer acting testosterone ester losing its effectiveness toward weeks 7–10. It has also anecdotally been found to rarely raise testosterone levels above the midrange of ‘normal’ (when measured between 4-8 weeks into therapy). What is most concerning is the idea of having higher estrogen with very little exogenous testosterone left from the original injection while waiting for the next injection to come. Aveed as of a recent report, is now allowing clinicians to titrate therapy by decreasing the duration between injections.

It should also be noted Aveed’s website offers a very stern warning of the risk of “serious pulmonary microembolism (POME) reactions and anaphylaxis” upon injection. This is due to the chemical particulates in the injectable formulation (to extend its half-life) being potentially harmful to some users.

Campbell, Jay. The Definitive Testosterone Replacement Therapy MANual: How to Optimize Your Testosterone for Lifelong Health and Happiness (pp. 63-64). Archangel Ink. Kindle Edition.

So daily injecting is better? With nebido its a big amount to inject in one time and once its in than u stuck with it for atleast 8 weeks.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Destiny1990

TDCNINJA · April 5, 2019

6 minutes ago, Destiny1990 said:

So daily injecting is better? With nebido its a big amount to inject in one time and once its in than u stuck with it for atleast 8 weeks.

I don't use Nebido and I never will because of the risk of pulmonary microembolism.

I believe that the medical evidence out there proves that lower doses and more frequent injections (doesn't necessarily have to be every day) lead to lower estrogen, as well as stable hematocrit and hemoglobin.

I'm not a doctor and I can't tell you what's best for you.

But what I've found is best for me is daily, low dose injections. For me, this has resulted in no increase (at all) in estrogen. Because I have had no increase in estrogen I haven't had to take an AI. I have had no increase in hematocrit and only a very minor rise in hemoglobin. Daily injections have resulted in very stable levels of serum testosterone in my bloodstream. I also don't suffer from the peaks and valleys that many users complain about.

Lastly, I understand that what works for me might not work for you. I do, however, feel that my way offers the fewest medical complications.

YMMV

Destiny1990 · April 5, 2019

5 minutes ago, TDCNINJA said:

I don't use Nebido and I never will because of the risk of pulmonary microembolism.

I believe that the medical evidence out there proves that lower doses and more frequent injections (doesn't necessarily have to be every day) lead to lower estrogen, as well as stable hematocrit and hemoglobin.

I'm not a doctor and I can't tell you what's best for you.

But what I've found is best for me is daily, low dose injections. For me, this has resulted in no increase (at all) in estrogen. Because I have had no increase in estrogen I haven't had to take an AI. I have had no increase in hematocrit and only a very minor rise in hemoglobin. Daily injections have resulted in very stable levels of serum testosterone in my bloodstream. I also don't suffer from the peaks and valleys that many users complain about.

Lastly, I understand that what works for me might not work for you. I do, however, feel that my way offers the fewest medical complications.

YMMV

Yes Ofcourse can only speak for urself that’s clear.

so since u do daily a shot of T is it subq in belly or? And What amount of T u daily inject?

NightSky · April 5, 2019

As a side note I was researching TRT and stumbled upon these meds I believe are new in the USA..?

Xyosted injection

Jatenzo softgels

The Insulin type pen injection Xyosted looks interesting although Im sure if new its also got 'new med' price attached to it and wont easily be available. Interesting though!

WaveHunter · April 5, 2019

5 hours ago, Destiny1990 said:

Yes Ofcourse can only speak for urself that’s clear.

so since u do daily a shot of T is it subq in belly or? And What amount of T u daily inject?

Daily injections of Test E or Cyp are quite unnecessary for typical TRT dosages. The half life of both forms of Test assure acceptably stable serum levels throughout the week even if entire dose is taken at one time.

Estrogen, hematocrit, and hemoglobin levels react to serum testosterone levels, not injected amounts of exogenous Testosterone, particularly at the typically low TRT doses, and even more particularly if the dose is delivered sub-q into fat layers under the skin.

Most people who inject sub-q (including me) do two injections per week but the reason is just to avoid minor cosmetic lumps under the skin which can occur when injecting an oil-based drug sub-q.

Each to his own I guess, but the way I look at it is that every injection poses a slight risk of contamination. Even if the risk is quite low, it is still a risk. And if you inject IM, the risk is higher.

Injecting daily is also wasteful since a little bit of the solution stays in the syringe per injection (around 10mg) and is thus not delivered to the body. Wastage is even more if you use separate drawing and injecting syringes as is typical if you use 1mL one-use glass ampules.

Edited April 5, 2019 by WaveHunter

mokwit · April 6, 2019

11 hours ago, NightSky said:

Jatenzo softgels

I don't see how different this would be to Andriol. For oral Testosterone Undecanoate to be absorbed without first pass effect it has to be absorbed in the small intestine by being incorporated into lipid balls that are then absorbed (simplified non scientific explanation) - therefore you would likely get just the same from Andriol caps which are absorbed this way.

Edited April 6, 2019 by mokwit

WaveHunter · April 6, 2019

2 hours ago, mokwit said:

I don't see how different this would be to Andriol. For oral Testosterone Undecanoate to be absorbed without first pass effect it has to be absorbed in the small intestine by being incorporated into lipid balls that are then absorbed (simplified non scientific explanation) - therefore you would likely get just the same from Andriol caps which are absorbed this way.

The idea behind oral Jatenzo softgels is that it is supposed to have better bioavailability and less liver toxicity than oral Andriol, which had a very inconsistent track record (inconsistent absorption into the lymphatic system, insolubility issues and the influence of fat content in food). According to Jatenzo, their soft-gels overcome these issues. While Jatenzo soft gels have received FDA approval, that decision was not without controversy.

(see FDA Panel: Two Thumbs Down for New Oral Testosterone Drugs)

Personally I would stick with a tried and true delivery method; sub-Q injections of Test-E is my preference.

Edited April 6, 2019 by WaveHunter

mokwit · April 6, 2019

Andriol has zero liver toxicity - variability with absorption and spiking levels are issues for sure but I wonder to what extent Jatenzo can improve on this bearing in mind same compound absorbed in the same location in the same way - it is not immediately apparent what is different. Delivery mechanisms are patentable, T is not, so maybe they have found some improvement over Andriol. Actual studies show the amount of fat required with Andriol is not large - I put off trying it until I knew that as I had previously assumed an overly fatty diet would be required.

http://www.clarustherapeutics.com/content/product-development/formulation.htm

This is identical with Andriol:

'The active component of JATENZO is a T prodrug formed by the combination of T with a fat-like molecule, or fatty acid, to create the T-ester TU. JATENZO is a proprietary formulation (issued U.S. and foreign patents) of TU using a liquid, self-emulsifying drug delivery system, or SEDDS, in a softgel capsule. In the presence of the water naturally present in the stomach and small intestine, this formulation maintains the TU in solution so that the body can form lipoprotein particles containing TU that are preferentially absorbed through the intestinal lymphatic system, thus bypassing delivery to the liver. Once TU enters the circulation by this pathway, it is acted upon by endogenous enzymes throughout the course of the day to cleave off the fatty acid, yielding circulating T. The liberated fat-like molecule is metabolized like any other fatty acid present in food.'

Is Andriol US FDA approved?f not it seems they are just trying to get this typeof delivery approved - I note that are comparing it with Methyl T, which is the FDA approved Oral T but which has issues.

Edited April 6, 2019 by mokwit

WaveHunter · April 6, 2019

9 minutes ago, mokwit said:

Andriol has zero liver toxicity - variability with absorption and spiking levels are issues for sure but I wonder to what extent Jatenzo can improve on this bearing in mind same compound absorbed in the same location in the same way - it is not immediately apparent what is different. Delivery mechanisms are patentable, T is not, so maybe they have found some improvement over Andriol. Actual studies show the amount of fat required with Andriol is not large - I put off trying it until I knew that as I had previously assumed an overly fatty diet would be required.

http://www.clarustherapeutics.com/content/product-development/formulation.htm

This is identical with Andriol:

'The active component of JATENZO is a T prodrug formed by the combination of T with a fat-like molecule, or fatty acid, to create the T-ester TU. JATENZO is a proprietary formulation (issued U.S. and foreign patents) of TU using a liquid, self-emulsifying drug delivery system, or SEDDS, in a softgel capsule. In the presence of the water naturally present in the stomach and small intestine, this formulation maintains the TU in solution so that the body can form lipoprotein particles containing TU that are preferentially absorbed through the intestinal lymphatic system, thus bypassing delivery to the liver. Once TU enters the circulation by this pathway, it is acted upon by endogenous enzymes throughout the course of the day to cleave off the fatty acid, yielding circulating T. The liberated fat-like molecule is metabolized like any other fatty acid present in food.'

I'm just a big fan of TU mainly due its' long half-life. Specifically, the serum testosterone levels are highly variable from one dose to another. In other words, you get a serum level spike when you first ingest TU and then as you reach the half-life stage, you get a dip...valleys and peaks, a sawtooth pattern that many people using TU say is noticeable in how they feel. With Test E or Test Cyp, serum levels stay VERY stable from one injection to the next. TU may be more convenient, but provides too much variability in serum levels IMHO.

TDCNINJA · April 6, 2019

19 hours ago, Destiny1990 said:

Yes Ofcourse can only speak for urself that’s clear.

so since u do daily a shot of T is it subq in belly or? And What amount of T u daily inject?

I SubQ inject .05ml/10mg of T-Cyp daily.

NightSky · April 6, 2019

For anyone else who reads this thread, in my case vitamin d was deficient (below 20 ng/nmol) and the ideal range is between 40-60.

As my vitamin d is increasing so are my t levels. After one month on vit d supplementation of 40,000 iu/week my vit d was 28ng/nmol and my t went from 7.7nmol to about 9.6nmol which is a significant increase albeit still low. But vit d is also still insufficient.

im hoping my vit d will continue to increase along with my t levels.

heres some studies confirming this relationship (you need to sign up to read the full articles but it’s free)

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/845483

My point being get vit d level tested too before deciding to go for trt as vit d levels make a big difference to natural t levels.

Edited April 6, 2019 by NightSky

Ks45672 · April 6, 2019

On 4/5/2019 at 8:23 PM, Destiny1990 said:

So daily injecting is better? With nebido its a big amount to inject in one time and once its in than u stuck with it for atleast 8 weeks.

Once or twice a week is the most I'm willing to inject but if nebido was the same price as test e I would try it out

4 or even 5ml is OK in a large enough muscle

Hospitals use the ventro glute to inject babies because it is big and has relatively few blood vessels

Destiny1990 · April 6, 2019

4 hours ago, TDCNINJA said:

I SubQ inject .05ml/10mg of T-Cyp daily.

Do u agree with wave runner that if u would do one shot a week of 70 mg the outcome would be the same?

i dont want to set u guys up or anything i just enjoy following the conversation ????

TDCNINJA · April 7, 2019

16 hours ago, Destiny1990 said:

Do u agree with wave runner that if u would do one shot a week of 70 mg the outcome would be the same?

i dont want to set u guys up or anything i just enjoy following the conversation ????

No, not at all. Estradiol, hematocrit, and hemoglobin would rise and well as the peaks and valleys in a psychotic wave pattern. I prefer a nice, stable sawtooth pattern.

This whole once a week or once every two weeks is 1940's medicine. It's time for you guys to enter the 21st century.

As for nebido, you are taking your life in your hands every time you inject.

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