Trump claims NATO victory after ultimatum to go it alone

[roobaa01]

trump wants to have the lame duck merkel removed for she is braking the countries development. with her being removed the way cleared for a grand coalition between cdu/csu and afd alternative for germany currently second strongest party 17.5 %. thus giving germany a strong new government with strong commitment towards us relationship and defence budget of more than 2 %.

 

wbr

roobaa01

[farcanell]

1 hour ago, roobaa01 said:

trump wants to have the lame duck merkel removed for she is braking the countries development. with her being removed the way cleared for a grand coalition between cdu/csu and afd alternative for germany currently second strongest party 17.5 %. thus giving germany a strong new government with strong commitment towards us relationship and defence budget of more than 2 %.

 

wbr

roobaa01

??

sooo... with Germany being placed well above the USA in the 2017 prosperity index, wouldn’t it be more correct to call the US a lame duck.... even trump acknowledged it as a wealthy country.... but don’t let that get in the way of your narrative.

 

regards the defense budget.... 2% contribution was hammered out well before trump, with a 2024 implementation date. Everything’s going along great... or was till trump turned up, so this blah blah is just blah blah to give his rigbys wood.

 

regards German imports of energy from Russia.... the US is now becoming a net exporter of energy.... (just now, not twenty years ago when Germany started buying gas from Russia)... so perhaps his ire at Germany buying from Russia is a bully tactic to influence future purchases from the USA instead of Russia.

 

however, that would require defaulting on existing contracts.... responsible governments balk at that.... unlike trump, (ergo he’s not a responsible politician)

 

now.... curiously, he did not attack the eu states that take 100% of their energy needs from Russia.... I don’t know why... perhaps because he’s a hypocrite, or perhaps because those countries are to small to make a significant impact on potential energy trade.

 

i wonder which of the hook, line or sinker is hardest to swallow

[Rimmer]

A number of off topic and troll posts have been removed, also replies

[farcanell]

7 minutes ago, Rigby40 said:

Yes my yellow little friend. The very fact that you can't love everyone demonstrates that you still harbor hatred and resentment(which manifests as anger). You don't have to display anger on these boards to prove you have it.

 

Btw I don't hate LGBT people, I love them but I don't accept their lifestyle or playing along with the transgenders mental illness. I have gay people in my life and I don't treat them any differently.

 

I don't think I've been insulting, I haven't called you stupid or anything. I worked with what you gave me.

 

I guess the best way to answer that question is that I had a revelation of God through his taking away my anger. It's at that point that I returned to him. The last 2 years-ish I had a great appreciation for Christian values as I became more conservative but always struggled with the spiritual aspect and belief in God. It had always been on my mind, wondering how to go about asking him to reveal himself to me, never got around to asking him outright. But then once I confronted my anger and forgave my parents, my life changed as he had forgiven me for my past as I forgave others of theirs.

Like I mentioned before, the light ptsd(stemming from a violent traumatic time you only see in movies) and more mild depression was taken away practically overnight. I was able to truly love my parents and family again. I'm now able to really have a strong relationship with my father and I actually enjoy spending time with him now haha ? I'm no longer emotional and I don't feel the need to spend money all the time to fill the void. Saving money again!! And I actually feel like a real man, I never wanted kids, I could never see myself as a father, now I want a huge family ? 

Words will never truly express how my life has changed unfortunately.

 

I know you probably won't think much of my experience or the others just like mine but that's ok. I totally understand and cannot judge you for that. I was an atheist for a long time and was on the other side of this conversation for many years.

Oh.... love everyone... got it... yep, that’s never going to happen, some people deserve to die horribly.... but then, you seem to be expressing Hillary hatred, so perhaps your comment on this matter is hypocritical

 

that said, not loving everyone, is far from not being able to love or be loved.... perhaps I use a higher standard in who I invest emotions in... but then again... you condemning MS13 earlier, didn’t sound loving to me, so more hypocracy ( thanks bristolboy for your warning on conflicting evidence... I did note my failure there... thought I had covered it over ???)

 

you have been insulting in assuming the worst of me... stating I’m angry and unloving etc.... not nice (or Christian of you)... and it had nothing to do with working with what you were given, but more about working with your prejudices.... but whatever

 

as to your changed attitudes due to finding the unicorn, I’m happy for you, if it’s changed your life to the extent that you describe... and even if I cannot understand anyone believing in a god, any god, if by believing, your a better person, then I’m all for you believing.... some people need help being the best that they can be.... you’ve found the help you need... congratulations. (And better, you didn’t try thrusting a deity down anyone’s throat, but replied fully when asked... that’s refreshing), but you would be wrong in assuming that others need help, just because you did

 

your post clearing up things wrongly led me to believe you were intolerant of lgbt... apologies... (But I was clear about being unsure about that)

 

[GroveHillWanderer]

4 hours ago, roobaa01 said:

it will be 2 % right away and 4 % thereafter. then it is a matter how to define the contributions if expenses like building roads, bridges etc can be taken into that calculation fine that would be bona fide. it would be investment which makes sense militarily, stratigically and commercially.

No, it is scheduled to be 2% by 2024 and that's it. There is no commitment to anything beyond that. Even then, not all of the allies actually have their plans to reach this target fully developed. Here's what it says in the final declaration, which was signed by all the leaders including Donald Trump.

 

Quote

All Allies have started to increase the amount they spend on defence in real terms and some two-thirds of Allies have national plans in place to spend 2% of their Gross Domestic Product on defence by 2024.

NATO Brussels Summit Declaration 2018 

 

I'm not aware of any NATO stipulation or document whereby spending on roads or bridges would be considered part of a country's defence budget.

Edited July 14, 2018 by GroveHillWanderer

[Guest]

7 hours ago, tumama said:

 

So stop spending so much on the military then. You don't need hundreds of bases all over the globe. 

This I fully agree. USA is nuts with military spending as somehow military has become their 'father', who keeps them safe. At least that seems to be narrative we get.

 

Europe is by far more pacifistic entity these days. We want to live in peace and don't want wars.

 

Currently there is only one military threat to Europe and it's Russia. Not the average Russians, who also want to live their lives in peace, but the labile political powers, who still uses wars and foreign threats to gain popularity (quite like USA does as well). 

 

In Europe UK and France have moderate amount of nuclear weapons. Russia has so many, that it could bring the world to the end, simply by nuking itself.. and so does the USA.

 

Russia was our friend for two decades. Both sides benefitted greatly from this co-operation and everybody wanted it to last. Then came the wars in Crimea, Syria, etc. Putin wanted to show his power mostly to internal matters. He wasn't so popular anymore. These acts of aggressions got everyone worried in Europe and that's the reason European countries have to increase their military funding, even if they know that money wasted on military is money away from things that benefit the people, education, healthcare, science etc.

 

So how can we start over? How can Europe and Russia start trusting each other again?

[mikebike]

3 hours ago, Rigby40 said:

Hillary hatred?

 

No, actually that's your problem right there, emotions. Real love is not emotional. So i'll go ahead and stop you right there.

 

How is allowing killers into your country and in your neighborhood love? Your idea of emotional love is very silly and twisted, very female in nature based in feelings instead of truth and what's right. Love is protecting your family and loved ones from murderers, not bending over to them(MS-13) and letting them do as they please, that's sick.

 

And yes I love MS-13 gang members, I hope they find a way out of their hell, come to terms with what they've done but coddling criminals is not love, that's evil.

 

The most Christian thing someone can do is loving you enough to be honest with you. I would argue most Christians you've encountered are very weak and don't actually have your best interest in mind. So it's actually very Christian of me!

 

I can't convince you God exists. Nobody can, it only comes through revelation. That's why so many so called Christians turn from God because they never had the belief to begin with, they place their faith in humans instead. For example all the catholics who turn because of evil child molesting priests. They had their faith in priests, not God. And LOL! losing ptsd, depression and addiction(non-drug) is a little more than a change in attitude wouldn't you say?

 

I don't assume others need help, I can see it plain as day. I encounter weak men on a daily basis with all sorts of issues, you name it. I've walked in some of their shoes before I know what it's like.

But being blinded by anger you'll never be able to see all the negatives in your life and that's alright.

You really do not understand anger at all do you?

[tomacht8]

14 minutes ago, oilinki said:

This I fully agree. USA is nuts with military spending as somehow military has become their 'father', who keeps them safe. At least that seems to be narrative we get.

 

Europe is by far more pacifistic entity these days. We want to live in peace and don't want wars.

 

Currently there is only one military threat to Europe and it's Russia. Not the average Russians, who also want to live their lives in peace, but the labile political powers, who still uses wars and foreign threats to gain popularity (quite like USA does as well). 

 

In Europe UK and France have moderate amount of nuclear weapons. Russia has so many, that it could bring the world to the end, simply by nuking itself.. and so does the USA.

 

Russia was our friend for two decades. Both sides benefitted greatly from this co-operation and everybody wanted it to last. Then came the wars in Crimea, Syria, etc. Putin wanted to show his power mostly to internal matters. He wasn't so popular anymore. These acts of aggressions got everyone worried in Europe and that's the reason European countries have to increase their military funding, even if they know that money wasted on military is money away from things that benefit the people, education, healthcare, science etc.

 

So how can we start over? How can Europe and Russia start trusting each other again?

There is a lot of truth in it.
Europe must be able to cooperate with Russia.
In the past, Europe has supported far too much the adventurers of the United States.
I think with the orange clown the desire of many EU countries has passed away to support them further.
Many may still remember Gorbachev or Lech Wałęsa.
If Europe could confidently resolve the conflicts with Russia, who would need the weapons of the United States? The normal citizens, no matter from Europe, or those from Russia are not in the mood for war.
Whether this is going on with Putin is unclear. But overall, more danger is currently coming to Europe from the US than from Russia.

[Scott]

Troll post and replies removed.

 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, tomacht8 said:

There is a lot of truth in it.
Europe must be able to cooperate with Russia.
In the past, Europe has supported far too much the adventurers of the United States.
I think with the orange clown the desire of many EU countries has passed away to support them further.
Many may still remember Gorbachev or Lech Wałęsa.
If Europe could confidently resolve the conflicts with Russia, who would need the weapons of the United States? The normal citizens, no matter from Europe, or those from Russia are not in the mood for war.
Whether this is going on with Putin is unclear. But overall, more danger is currently coming to Europe from the US than from Russia.

I remember Brezhnev and Andropov. The years when Soviet Union was in turmoil. 

 

While I realistically think that Crimea is in fact part of Russia, admitting it publicly is saying "Hey Russia, it's ok for you to occupy your neighbouring countries". That's a message which no European country wishes to send.

 

How to get out of this gridlock? Perhaps Russia could give Crimea autonomy for 5 years and the people in Crimea could vote after that time wether they wish to be part of Ukraine or Russia.. or if they wish to stay as independent country.

 

Most likely the result would be that Crimea would become part of Russia, but at least we could unlock this mess.

 

Then there are, the far more important things, like Russias involvement to dissolve EU and western co-operation. Perhaps we could find solution by including Russia as our friend to our table. Not yet the trusted partner, but a friend who might become one. We already buy a lot of natural resources from Russia.

 

Anyway, we need to find real and stabile solutions to the problems we have in European arena. 

[tomacht8]

1 minute ago, oilinki said:

I remember Brezhnev and Andropov. The years when Soviet Union was in turmoil. 

 

While I realistically think that Crimea is in fact part of Russia, admitting it publicly is saying "Hey Russia, it's ok for you to occupy your neighbouring countries". That's a message which no European country wishes to send.

 

How to get out of this gridlock? Perhaps Russia could give Crimea autonomy for 5 years and the people in Crimea could vote after that time wether they wish to be part of Ukraine or Russia.. or if they wish to stay as independent country.

 

Most likely the result would be that Crimea would become part of Russia, but at least we could unlock this mess.

 

Then there are, the far more important things, like Russias involvement to dissolve EU and western co-operation. Perhaps we could find solution by including Russia as our friend to our table. Not yet the trusted partner, but a friend who might become one. We already buy a lot of natural resources from Russia.

 

Anyway, we need to find real and stabile solutions to the problems we have in European arena. 

True.
The advantages are apparent.
Russia has the largest natural resources in the world.
Russia has 17,098,242 km² area
Canada has 9,984,670 km² area
United States has 9,826,675 km² area.
China has 9,596,961 km² area,
Brazil has 8,514,877 km² area.

Russia and Europe certainly have the opportunity here to help their people work together. '

The impulse must now come from Europe.
Trump can indeed be the media-effective pre turner in the coming days.
After that, the government leaders with good Expertise can meet and make good agreements.
The world does not need Trump in this region.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

Russia and Europe certainly have the opportunity here to help their people work together. '

The impulse must now come from Europe.
Trump can indeed be the media-effective pre turner in the coming days.
After that, the government leaders with good Expertise can meet and make good agreements.
The world does not need Trump in this region.

While I do agree that we need to be able to find how to live in peace and prosper, I do think that in this particular case it's Russia, which needs to send the impulse of co-operation.

 

It was Russia, who did wrong and therefore it's the responsibility of Russia to say "Sorry, I messed up". 

 

After that our relationship can become much better. But admitting wrongdoing requires a lot of balls. That's what I want to see from Russia, having big balls while doing something good for the world peace. 

[tomacht8]

2 minutes ago, oilinki said:

While I do agree that we need to be able to find how to live in peace and prosper, I do think that in this particular case it's Russia, which needs to send the impulse of co-operation.

 

It was Russia, who did wrong and therefore it's the responsibility of Russia to say "Sorry, I messed up". 

 

After that our relationship can become much better. But admitting wrongdoing requires a lot of balls. That's what I want to see from Russia, having big balls while doing something good for the world peace. 

I am sure that will come from Russia.
The problem with Ukraine and the Crimea is solvable.

The prospect of russia working closely with the EU is certainly economically attractive.

Since the orange clown can spread as much hot wind as he wants,
Putin is certainly not stupid.

[Rigby40]

14 hours ago, farcanell said:

Oh.... love everyone... got it... yep, that’s never going to happen, some people deserve to die horribly.... but then, you seem to be expressing Hillary hatred, so perhaps your comment on this matter is hypocritical

 

that said, not loving everyone, is far from not being able to love or be loved.... perhaps I use a higher standard in who I invest emotions in... but then again... you condemning MS13 earlier, didn’t sound loving to me, so more hypocracy ( thanks bristolboy for your warning on conflicting evidence... I did note my failure there... thought I had covered it over ???)

 

you have been insulting in assuming the worst of me... stating I’m angry and unloving etc.... not nice (or Christian of you)... and it had nothing to do with working with what you were given, but more about working with your prejudices.... but whatever

 

as to your changed attitudes due to finding the unicorn, I’m happy for you, if it’s changed your life to the extent that you describe... and even if I cannot understand anyone believing in a god, any god, if by believing, your a better person, then I’m all for you believing.... some people need help being the best that they can be.... you’ve found the help you need... congratulations. (And better, you didn’t try thrusting a deity down anyone’s throat, but replied fully when asked... that’s refreshing), but you would be wrong in assuming that others need help, just because you did

 

your post clearing up things wrongly led me to believe you were intolerant of lgbt... apologies... (But I was clear about being unsure about that)

 

If you cannot love even your enemies then you don't know true love.

 

And pointing out evil and being honest with people is the most Christian thing one can do actually.

 

Losing ptsd and depression is a little more than a change in attitude ?

[Ron19]

Flame post removed

[Ron19]

off topic post removed

[xtrnuno41]

On 7/13/2018 at 11:55 AM, bristolboy said:

Would you rather see its members go to war? By your standard, what alliances are doing anything? I guess the US alliance with the Kurds, the Russian and Iranian alliance with the Syrians. I'm sure there are a few more out there. Is that your idea of a good thing?

So what they did about Syria? They let it escalate. What about Yugoslavia and so? What about some countries in Africa? What they do for North Korea people? Kurds and Turks? Israeli and Palestines? do i need to go on as the list is endless?

[bristolboy]

6 minutes ago, xtrnuno41 said:

So what they did about Syria? They let it escalate. What about Yugoslavia and so? What about some countries in Africa? What they do for North Korea people? Kurds and Turks? Israeli and Palestines? do i need to go on as the list is endless?

Nato is a European -American-Canadian alliance dedicated to defending its members from outside attack. So why should it be incumbent upon Nato to be involved in areas where its members aren't located? It can choose to get involved as it did in Yugoslavia, where it put a stop to the Serbian brutality.

[bristolboy]

Trump fundamentally undermines NATO, suggests 'aggressive' Montenegro may attack Russia to start World War III

President Donald Trump returned to undermining NATO on Tuesday by singling out the alliance's smallest and newest member, Montenegro, following a European tour that Republicans heavily criticized for misrepresenting US values.

In an interview with Fox News host Tucker Carlson on Tuesday, Trump was asked why the US should answer the call to defend Montenegro — which was admitted to NATO in 2017 — in the event it was attacked...

But Trump added another wrinkle to the scenario and suggested Montenegro's "aggressive people" could spark a global conflict and drag the US with it.

http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-montenegro-nato-fox-news-interview-2018-7

[spidermike007]

On 7/13/2018 at 8:00 AM, wwest5829 said:

My outrage, as an American citizen does not have to be manipulated. It forms naturally when The Donald opens his mouth. His words, policies and actions are an anthemia. I judge him on his own merits...or lack thereof.

Thank you. There are no merits. There is no truth. Everything this man says or does is a fiction. Those that voted for him, really want to believe he is the change they were looking for. Just like I believed in Obama, for about 90 days. After 18 months, they are still drinking his kool aid. One instance after another, and they are still buying his nonsense. He lies, yet they believe. He fails, yet they believe. It is like a cult at this point. It is an astonishing thing to witness. 

 

Tiny Don. The art of I cannot make a deal to save my life. The art of making America worse by the day. The art of going into delicate situations totally unprepared, and getting upstaged by the far more savvy, prepared, smart, and cunning men and women in the room, every single time. The art of always getting played. The art of pissing off your closest allies, so that they all make deals around the world, without you. The art of coddling your enemies, and doing deals without getting anything in return, for the American people. The art of a tax deal, that offers nothing to 80% of all Americans, yet gives tax breaks to those that need it the least, the giant corporations. The art of making America less relevant by the day. 

Edited July 18, 2018 by spidermike007

[Paul Catton]

IMO President Trump is correct, put up or shut up, l

[bristolboy]

36 minutes ago, Paul Catton said:

IMO President Trump is correct, put up or shut up, l

He wasn't even correct in in the Montenegran example. Nato would not be liable to defend Montenegro if it attacked Russia. Only if it was attacked by Russia. What makes it even more ludicrous is that the Russians backed an attempt to assassinate the Montenegran PM and also massively interfered in its electoral process. What's more Montenegro has been assisting the US in Afghanistan.

He also claimed that the US foots 90% of the cost of Nato. It's actually 22%. It's almost impressive how many falsehood he can spout in so few minutes.

Edited July 18, 2018 by bristolboy

[mtls2005]

Amazed he didn't mention the Duchy of Grand Fenwick.

 

 

 

[Opl]

On ‎7‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 6:31 PM, xtrnuno41 said:

So what they did about Syria? They let it escalate. What about Yugoslavia and so? What about some countries in Africa? What they do for North Korea people? Kurds and Turks? Israeli and Palestines? do i need to go on as the list is endless?

 

Please, go dipper :

- Why it matters: The mutual defense pact is the bedrock of NATO, and the only time it has been invoked was after the September 11 attacks.

- The context:  Article 5 which says an attack "against one Ally will be regarded as an attack against us all." The Brussels Declaration reads: "No one should doubt NATO's resolve if the security of any of its members were to be threatened."

- Soldiers killed from U.S- allies countries in Afghanistan and Irak 2001-2018f

https://www.axios.com/trump-nato-nations-montenegro-war-fox-news-2ba7c46f-1ffc-40aa-b8bb-713d392d4ae0.html

[spidermike007]

The NATO summit was a complete failure on the part of Captain Chaos. He failed on every measurable level. He reduced long held alliances to rubble. He made Putin's position far more powerful. He alienated leaders we are going to need desperately, moving forward, he made America less relevant, and the only thing he succeeded in doing, was to not make America great again (an impossible task anyway, this is just not going to happen). It is time for his supporters to start admitting what an abysmal failure this experiment has been. The "Master" is incompetent. He is dangerous. He is only concerned about one thing, and one thing only. Don. That is all he considers day and night. Don. Nothing and nobody else. The last priority for this clinically insane man, is the American people. 

 

Much of the world hopes and prays that the democrats take over in November (looking increasingly likely thanks to Tiny Don's non-stop blunders) and impeachment proceedings begin without hesitation. 

Edited July 20, 2018 by spidermike007