A crime or a right? Some Danish Muslims defy face veil ban

[cmsally]

36 minutes ago, simple1 said:

Where on earth did you get the figures that the majority of Muslims from Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran or indeed from any other Muslim country live in Europe? You do know the vast majority of Muslim refugees live in Muslim majority countries?

 

BTW if you are interested be good idea to research some colonial / foreign policy / economic history which generated the context for initial influx and ongoing of Muslims into the West. It is interesting to note the beginning of Islamist Salafi ideology actually commenced in the late 19th Century in British controlled Egypt which went on to influence a number of today's Islamist terror groups.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salafi_movement

Quote

came the breakdown of many of these societies and hence the mass immigration. That is why the majority of them are in Europe,

I was referring to only the populations in Europe. Therefore the majority of those in Europe (not the muslim population as a whole).

[Opl]

30 minutes ago, duanebigsby said:

Who cares?

Do you now want to ban cross dressing?

I can't always tell if someone in drag is male or female either. Big deal.

who cares.. you oppose the ban and defend women's dress choice .. it's a little bit more significant than garment free choice  right,

just days ago, 

"He put the death toll at 29, with 81 wounded, adding that the victims included children. Provincial police chief Gen. Raz Mohammad Mandozai confirmed the presence of two suicide bombers, adding that the assailants were wearing burqas to hide their weapons and explosives.

http://afghanistan.asia-news.com/en_GB/articles/cnmi_st/features/2018/08/03/feature-04

Edited August 5, 2018 by Opl

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, duanebigsby said:

I think we'll have to agree to disagree there. I don't think the Danish women were Muslim extremists.

 

I do believe, given time, Muslim women will abandon the veil without abandoning their faith, but it needs to be done on their own accord.

They can abandon the burka (and comparing it to a veil is disingenuous) NOW, without meaning that it's " abandoning their faith".

[duanebigsby]

2 minutes ago, cmsally said:

Just as some "extremist Islam" movements could be argued to be partially the result of "Western Imperialism"; logically there will be movements sprouting up in the West which will push against the islamification of our society.

Absolutely some of reasons for the conditions in the Middle East have been created by the West, but certainly not all. Just as it is argued that the Muslims rejected westernisation by becoming extreme, you will find that will work in the other direction. Major changes appearing in the west through mass migration will see an extreme reaction from the native population.

Agreed.

I worry about both the extremism from the Muslim community and the reaction of the Western countries. Both are over the top reactions by minority radicals. I dislike the word "islamification" when the EU population of muslims is 4-5%. That just doesn't seem like the word applies.

[duanebigsby]

5 minutes ago, Opl said:

who cares.. you oppose the ban and defend women's dress choice .. it's a little bit more significant than garment free choice  right,

just days ago, 

"He put the death toll at 29, with 81 wounded, adding that the victims included children. Provincial police chief Gen. Raz Mohammad Mandozai confirmed the presence of two suicide bombers, adding that the assailants were wearing burqas to hide their weapons and explosives.

http://afghanistan.asia-news.com/en_GB/articles/cnmi_st/features/2018/08/03/feature-04

In Afghanistan, a country in full civil war,  where the burka is mandatory and everyone has one.

 

In Denmark approximately 250-300 regularly wear a hijab and there isn't widespread violence.

 

Apples and oranges.

[Opl]

4 minutes ago, duanebigsby said:

Agreed.

I worry about both the extremism from the Muslim community and the reaction of the Western countries. Both are over the top reactions by minority radicals. I dislike the word "islamification" when the EU population of muslims is 4-5%. That just doesn't seem like the word applies.

"over top reaction by minority radicals"

such as ..

"ISIS bans women from wearing burkas after chiefs attacked by veiled assassins "

https://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/isis-bans-women-from-wearing-burkas-after-chiefs-attacked-by-veiled-assassins/news-story/5356534a06f3213389835f34281ecf80

Edited August 5, 2018 by Opl

[Opl]

1 minute ago, duanebigsby said:

In Afghanistan, a country in full civil war,  where the burka is mandatory and everyone has one.

 

In Denmark approximately 250-300 regularly wear a hijab and there isn't widespread violence.

 

Apples and oranges.

you do not need thousands of fanatics to cause heavy fatalities, refer to the last events in Europe, 

[duanebigsby]

1 minute ago, Opl said:

over top reaction by minority radicals;;

"ISIS bans women from wearing burkas after chiefs attacked by veiled assassins "

https://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/isis-bans-women-from-wearing-burkas-after-chiefs-attacked-by-veiled-assassins/news-story/5356534a06f3213389835f34281ecf80

See my previous post.

Why don't you just come out and say you hate all Muslims and anything they wear will set you off in angry hysteria.

[duanebigsby]

1 minute ago, Opl said:

you do not need thousands of fanatics to cause heavy fatalities, refer to the last events in Europe, 

Which kind of makes my point.

There is a small number of extremists causing a lot of damage.

You are condemning a billion Muslims for the actions of perhaps 100,000.

[Opl]

2 minutes ago, duanebigsby said:

See my previous post.

Why don't you just come out and say you hate all Muslims and anything they wear will set you off in angry hysteria.

who do you think someone opposing radical political islamism in western Europe is automatically a muslims hater?

do you suppose all muslims living in the west automatically oppose the face veil ban  just because they are muslims?

your reasoning is really extreme

Edited August 5, 2018 by Opl

[duanebigsby]

7 minutes ago, Opl said:

who do you think someone opposing radical political islamism in western Europe is automatically a muslims hater?

do you suppose all muslims living in the west automatically oppose the face veil ban  just because they are muslims?

Your rhetoric points me that direction.

Muslims living in the west, I assume, oppose the veil ban on a civil rights level not just because they are Muslim

Edited August 5, 2018 by duanebigsby

[Opl]

6 minutes ago, duanebigsby said:

Your rhetoric points me that direction.

Muslims living in the, I assume, oppose the veil ban on a civil rights level not just because they are Muslim

Your rhetoric says the opposite. 

The links I posted show that even in some Muslim countries the ban is used for diverse reasons , so stop blaming western non muslim countries in the name of so called civil rights.  

there is a law - don't defy - even more when only 300 trespassers.   

Edited August 5, 2018 by Opl

[cmsally]

I think there is a very big problem in allowing the wearing of a burqa or face veil because it is a civil rights issue. I think it is just as much a right to be able to confirm a persons identity , and as humans we do this by facial recognition. unless of course we start microchipping them! But it's not really the same is it?

 

Just as a matter of interest , who in this argument is female?

As a female I must add that I am very much against this practice being allowed in the west. Just forget about the religion part of it for a moment  and imagine a family made their daughters follow this practice, it would be a pretty extreme form of child abuse. To me it is just a terrible system of abuse covered up by the umbrella of religion.

 

[duanebigsby]

10 minutes ago, Opl said:

Your rhetoric says the opposite. 

The links I posted show that even in some Muslim countries the ban is used for diverse reasons , so stop blaming western non muslim countries in the name of so called civil rights.  

there is a law - don't defy - even more when only 300 trespassers.   

I disagree with the ban in Muslim countries as well.

It's not democratic and it stifles human rights to tell someone they can't wear religious outfits.

So I don't care about your links.

[duanebigsby]

2 minutes ago, cmsally said:

I think there is a very big problem in allowing the wearing of a burqa or face veil because it is a civil rights issue. I think it is just as much a right to be able to confirm a persons identity , and as humans we do this by facial recognition. unless of course we start microchipping them! But it's not really the same is it?

 

Just as a matter of interest , who in this argument is female?

As a female I must add that I am very much against this practice being allowed in the west. Just forget about the religion part of it for a moment  and imagine a family made their daughters follow this practice, it would be a pretty extreme form of child abuse. To me it is just a terrible system of abuse covered up by the umbrella of religion.

 

I also think it's abuse for a parent to force this on their children.Every bit as much as a parent forcing the kids to church and wearing a crucifix.  But as an adult the women should have a right to choose.

[giddyup]

10 minutes ago, duanebigsby said:

I also think it's abuse for a parent to force this on their children.Every bit as much as a parent forcing the kids to church and wearing a crucifix.  But as an adult the women should have a right to choose.

But do they have "free choice" or are they so indoctrinated and brainwashed they are incapable of making a choice? I was made to go to Sunday school when I was young, but I dropped all that religious claptrap when I was old enough to make informed decisions.

Edited August 5, 2018 by giddyup

[cmsally]

If you were living in a community where most others were wearing a veil and it was accepted out in normal society just imagine how difficult it would be to resist the pressure! In a lot of cases teenagers would have to break themselves off completely in order to make that choice and that would be a feat very few would be capable of. They are dependent on parents for accommodation, money, food, schooling; just about everything. At least if these ( veils)were banned out in society , they might be able to work towards making that choice. Unless banned I would say on a realistic level that choice is not available.

[duanebigsby]

1 minute ago, giddyup said:

But do they have "free choice" or are they so indoctrinated and brainwashed they are incapable of making a choice?

Different argument which could be leveled at any religious person.

They still have the right of choice.

[duanebigsby]

7 minutes ago, giddyup said:

But do they have "free choice" or are they so indoctrinated and brainwashed they are incapable of making a choice? I was made to go to Sunday school when I was young, but I dropped all that religious claptrap when I was old enough to make informed decisions.

Agreed.

But like the Muslim women in the hijabs, many of your peers hung onto that Christian indoctrination. Would you ban them from wearing a crucifix?

[giddyup]

1 minute ago, duanebigsby said:

Different argument which could be leveled at any religious person.

They still have the right of choice.

Some muslim women in the UK chose to adopt a western lifestyle by using makeup, pursuing a career and dating a western man, and have been murdered for their choices.

[giddyup]

2 minutes ago, duanebigsby said:

Agreed.

But like the Muslim women in the hijabs, many of your peers hung onto that Christian indoctrination. Would you ban them from wearing a crucifix?

A crucifix doesn't cover your face, in fact in most cases it's probably concealed by clothing.

[duanebigsby]

7 minutes ago, cmsally said:

If you were living in a community where most others were wearing a veil and it was accepted out in normal society just imagine how difficult it would be to resist the pressure! In a lot of cases teenagers would have to break themselves off completely in order to make that choice and that would be a feat very few would be capable of. They are dependent on parents for accommodation, money, food, schooling; just about everything. At least if these ( veils)were banned out in society , they might be able to work towards making that choice. Unless banned I would say on a realistic level that choice is not available.

These are adult women protesting.

According to your logic we should be banning Sunday school and crucifixes and Bar Mizvah

[duanebigsby]

2 minutes ago, giddyup said:

Some muslim women in the UK chose to adopt a western lifestyle by using makeup, pursuing a career and dating a western man, and have been murdered for their choices.

And that's an outrageous crime I don't condone. What's your point?

 

[duanebigsby]

2 minutes ago, giddyup said:

A crucifix doesn't cover your face, in fact in most cases it's probably concealed by clothing.

So what? You are using security issue to perpetuate an anti-Islam diatribe.

[giddyup]

Just now, duanebigsby said:

And that's an outrageous crime I don't condone. What's your point?

 

If that kind of pressure is brought to bear, what choices do they have, submit or die. I thought that was pretty obvious.

[cmsally]

2 minutes ago, duanebigsby said:

These are adult women protesting.

According to your logic we should be banning Sunday school and crucifixes and Bar Mizvah

In my honest opinion it would be Stockholm Syndrome related. Sometimes people go to great lengths to justify what they have to suffer.

[giddyup]

5 minutes ago, duanebigsby said:

So what? You are using security issue to perpetuate an anti-Islam diatribe.

I'm anti brainwashing and subjugation, christian or muslim. I'm also anti TV preachers and religious fanatics of any denomination.

Edited August 5, 2018 by giddyup

[duanebigsby]

2 minutes ago, giddyup said:

If that kind of pressure is brought to bear, what choices do they have, submit or die. I thought that was pretty obvious.

And it's a terrible crime. I said that already.

The women in Denmark didn't seem to be under that threat.

They're expressing their dislike of the law restricting their clothing decisians.

[duanebigsby]

5 minutes ago, giddyup said:

I'm anti brainwashing and subjugation, christian or muslim. I'm also anti TV preachers and religious fanatics of any denomination.

I agree with that, although I never see your anti Christian debates.

Just constant Muslim bashing.

I do absolutely agree with you that all religions are bad, but we need the right to choose if we want to follow garbage. Hence my defence of the Muslim ladies to protest.

[giddyup]

Just now, duanebigsby said:

And it's a terrible crime. I said that already.

The women in Denmark didn't seem to be under that threat.

They're expressing their dislike of the law restricting their clothing decisians.

You don't know what threat or what brainwashing has occurred, and quite honestly I'm bored discussing it with you any further. All I can say is that I applaud the Danes decision and I just hope they don't waver.