"We are not coming back" : Tourists give the thumbs down to Khao San Road changes

[mommysboy]

57 minutes ago, BuckleUp said:

Finally can walk in peace without someone shoving (15 baht) tee-shirts for 350 baht in your face every few meters.

Now if only the rest of the country can clean up their footpaths....

And this happens does it?  Do you live in Khao San?

[Small Joke]

I'm all for individual  freedoms,  but with those, come individual responsibilities. 

Those responsibilities include accepting and adhering to agreed standards. 

I'm no fan of Singapore,  but they got the street food thing aced. 

You can get great affordable delicious 'street' food in any community. 

The 'hawker centers' are either underground in main thorofares,  or away from wheeled traffic areas.

The problem here is that  they suddenly decide to impose order over chaos as a cockamamie  veneer,  rather than think hard, create regulated designated market zones, and spend money on the infrastructure to preserve the best while cleaning up the rest. I could care less about keenok tourists, and their ersatz quest for 'authenticity'  let them go to India if they cherish filth, crowds and chaos.

Here Thais desperately need to clear the clogged streets, streets exist for traffic, not dining tables and dildo vendors. 

One day there will be a vast city fire,  that starts in a place packed with humans, then we shall see how high the price of streets choked with vendors can be. 

 

[manjara]

On 8/7/2018 at 5:00 AM, cmsally said:

The problem is that "the nice shops with taxis waiting" can be found anywhere else, including the many useless and energy wasting malls.

People come to see and experience things unique but many people don't seem to realise this. Thailand used to have many places and people that were totally unique. Most of these have become diluted or disappeared completely, consequently tourists will disappear also.

Of course, people come to see the things that Thailand is known for around the world, so the authorities need to work out how to replace these things. 

Thailand has to modernize and get away from some of the reputations it has had in the past, but if you want tourists, then you have to provide the things they are looking for! 

I had an idea for a bar (actually that big one near the JW Marriott on Suk) to bring the street vendors inside the bar and make it a bit nicer than a pavement area. That way the girls wouldn't have to go outside to get their Som tam and if you get the best food vendors, you will be popular!

The authorities could do this on a larger scale with Khao San road and other areas, e.g. Soi Cowboy in a style a bit more like Amsterdam. 

i.e. accept it is needed, embrace it and 'disney-fi' it. 

I just don't think Thais have the capability to do Grand Schemes. They are more a 'patch it up with string and duct tape' kind of nation!

[mommysboy]

“Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.”

― H.L. Mencken,

[billd766]

54 minutes ago, CLW said:

I think this orderly thinking and especially walking is a farang obsession.
How many Thais are walking more than 100m?

 

If some Thais could do it they would even take their cars INTO a 7/11 and save the 3 metre walk.

[geriatrickid]

9 hours ago, The manic said:

They spend tons of money.  All year round and it's money that goes directly to Thai families and small businesses.  The backpackers have created enormous wealth around Banglampoo.  When I first stayed on the KSR about 1990 there were no hotels.  The authorities destroyed vibrant areas and thriving communities elsewhere in BKK. Its authoritarian nonsense and bullying.

Unfortunately, your assumptions are incorrect. Let's deal with the facts which are quite clear;

1. The commercial  activities on the street and sidewalks were illegal. They were facilitated in part through the paying of bribes and protection money to the local mobsters who controlled who was allowed to work there. There is no such thing as a legitimate permit system for these street vendors.  The continued presence of illegal  commercial operations is making gangsters rich.

 

2. These vendors have been stealing electricity off the grid for years, dumping  untreated food waste like cooking oil in the sewers  and making a right mess of the area for years. They have paid nothing towards the upkeep of the area. Other commercial businesses have been paying taxes and assessments which these  vendors have not.

 

3. The backpackers of KDR do not bring large amounts of money to Thailand. Yes, they spend on hostels, beer and basic food, but this is a zero baht  proposition because the  costs they create in sanitation, energy use , public services  etc. are not covered by the  income they generate. Now, don't twist this out of context to  say they are worthless because that is not what I am saying. My point is that this visitor segment generates far less than the family of 4 visiting from Sweden, China or Australia and that's what Thailand is trying to attract.

 

4 hours ago, cmsally said:

Whilst espousing the doctrine of advancement, it would be helpful to know what the proposed model should be. Surely not another mass of concrete poured into the ground , eating up scarce resources with its constant air conditioning and sanitation issues of its own except often not visible because all the trash is at the back of the hotel/mall.

People throw around the labels of development and advancement but a lot of the people I talk to say Bangkok is not good economically and hasn't been this bad in years. So where is the great prosperity that should arrive with all these 5 star hotels and new shopping malls?

Although your concern has been addressed up thread, I will respond again by pointing out that this is a thoroughfare intended to help traffic move along. That is what it was built for. It was not built as a market, of which there are many in Bangkok. You make the assumption that progress is defined by a shopping mall  and that the area will be replaced by a shopping mall. How about, that the road will be used as it was intended?  And there is prosperity in Thailand.

The country has transformed in a short time. When I first arrived  as a university student, DMK was the  prinicipal airport, Patong was still relatively quiet and I could stay at the Sheraton Royal Orchid and the Dusit Thani in Phuket for a pittance. The hospitals  had minimal  modern equipment etc. Not so today. Some of the hospitals have very expensive modern equipment, and there are modern airports everywhere. The country has moved on.

 

1 hour ago, CLW said:

Lol. Progress by all means and for who? You? Who benefits from all this progress? The rich are getting wealthier everyday while the lower class has to struggle to make money for their everyday lives.
One of the key advantages Thailand is / was so attractive is also the low cost of everything here. By your proposed progress locals and tourists suffer.

The low costs you crave come at a cost: The suffering of the workers and the production of low quality and/or unsafe products. Thailand has full employment and has a labour shortage. Usually, in a free market, wages would rise. However, in Thailand, successive governments have kept wages lower than they would be otherwise.  Yes, you benefit from those low wages, but the poor worker does not. If you really were advocating for the working poor, you would accept some very large cost increases. For example, people love to gripe about the taxi fares. A more realistic  cost would be double what they are now.

 

56 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Try Singapore... or Switzerland, maybe.  Has it ever crossed your mind that it's you out of place?

Why are you afraid of Thailand moving on? Why do so many older foreigners resist the Thais advancing? Is it wrong to desire potable water, or proper sanitation, or  roads that  are less congested etc? These advances require a trade off, a shedding of the outdated and cumbersome eyesores of the past. Adapt or perish.  Thailand's educated youth want similar quality to what  exists in Hong Kong, Japan, South Korea and Singapore.

You won't believe this, but the influx of KPop and J Pop  bands and their accompanying TV shows profiling their lives have highlighted the order, modernity and sophistication of other Asian cities, and young Thais want those things, (as well as the carnal delight of these performers). The urban young don't want dirty street vendors. Old farnags may want them, but those farangs should not try to impose their outdated colonial fantasies on the new youth.

 

 

[CLW]

Of course, people come to see the things that Thailand is known for around the world, so the authorities need to work out how to replace these things. 
Thailand has to modernize and get away from some of the reputations it has had in the past, but if you want tourists, then you have to provide the things they are looking for! 
I had an idea for a bar (actually that big one near the JW Marriott on Suk) to bring the street vendors inside the bar and make it a bit nicer than a pavement area. That way the girls wouldn't have to go outside to get their Som tam and if you get the best food vendors, you will be popular!
The authorities could do this on a larger scale with Khao San road and other areas, e.g. Soi Cowboy in a style a bit more like Amsterdam. 
i.e. accept it is needed, embrace it and 'disney-fi' it. 
I just don't think Thais have the capability to do Grand Schemes. They are more a 'patch it up with string and duct tape' kind of nation!

In my area the BMA has cleared the roadside that is now blocked with motorcycles. The vendors have moved to the sub-sois therefore the problem is not solved just moved to somewhere else.
Meanwhile there is a empty shop building (used to be a Tesco Lotus Express) including a roofed area that sits idle for almost 3 years now.
With very little work and initiatives this could be perfectly converted to a food court and shops that are similar to the hawker centers in Singapore.
Why the BMA doesn't focus on converting things instead of just simply banning them?

[cmsally]

The backpacker scene has evolved in the last 20-30 years and Khaosan has evolved with it. Although it may not be as charming as a few years back, it is one of the last areas in the city centre where you get any kind of atmosphere.

One of the main arguments for getting rid of the street vendors seems to be to open up the street to traffic. That is the last thing that is needed in BKK, no one needs to encourage more cars.Not a good move for the "concrete" shops either as many are open restaurants and no one wants their customers having to suck up even more exhaust fumes.

There is a lot of talk about "development" and "increase in wages" but are these really going to happen just because of the change in outer appearance. If so I think it would have happened by now. Presumably if they can get rid of the backpacker section of the market everyone will be earning amazing wages working for 5 star international hotel chains ? Well maybe not.

[BobBKK]

Cultural destruction is a form of cultural genocide and Tourists don't go to those markets to see spick and span sanitized shopping. That can be found anywhere. They go to FEEL and engage with local paradigms.  

 

It's an absurdity wrapped up in dumb and dumber thinking clothed as 'progression'.  What next?  get rid of the Wats and make them into car parks?

[LomSak27]

Just now, cmsally said:

There is a lot of talk about "development" and "increase in wages" but are these really going to happen just because of the change in outer appearance. If so I think it would have happened by now. Presumably if they can get rid of the backpacker section of the market everyone will be earning amazing wages working for 5 star international hotel chains ? Well maybe not.

?   hehe

 

The powers that be want to transform Bangkok into Singapore. To do that Lee closed Bugis street and transformed it, transformed the city back in the late 70's.

Sadly for the dreamers in the current government I think Singapore had a lot more going for it back then than BK does today, regarding the economics that drive the place. You can tear things down and build a new mall but who is going to buy things there, taxi drivers and noodle salesmen? Same old story

[mommysboy]

43 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

Unfortunately, your assumptions are incorrect. Let's deal with the facts which are quite clear;

1. The commercial  activities on the street and sidewalks were illegal. They were facilitated in part through the paying of bribes and protection money to the local mobsters who controlled who was allowed to work there. There is no such thing as a legitimate permit system for these street vendors.  The continued presence of illegal  commercial operations is making gangsters rich.

 

2. These vendors have been stealing electricity off the grid for years, dumping  untreated food waste like cooking oil in the sewers  and making a right mess of the area for years. They have paid nothing towards the upkeep of the area. Other commercial businesses have been paying taxes and assessments which these  vendors have not.

 

3. The backpackers of KDR do not bring large amounts of money to Thailand. Yes, they spend on hostels, beer and basic food, but this is a zero baht  proposition because the  costs they create in sanitation, energy use , public services  etc. are not covered by the  income they generate. Now, don't twist this out of context to  say they are worthless because that is not what I am saying. My point is that this visitor segment generates far less than the family of 4 visiting from Sweden, China or Australia and that's what Thailand is trying to attract.

 

Although your concern has been addressed up thread, I will respond again by pointing out that this is a thoroughfare intended to help traffic move along. That is what it was built for. It was not built as a market, of which there are many in Bangkok. You make the assumption that progress is defined by a shopping mall  and that the area will be replaced by a shopping mall. How about, that the road will be used as it was intended?  And there is prosperity in Thailand.

The country has transformed in a short time. When I first arrived  as a university student, DMK was the  prinicipal airport, Patong was still relatively quiet and I could stay at the Sheraton Royal Orchid and the Dusit Thani in Phuket for a pittance. The hospitals  had minimal  modern equipment etc. Not so today. Some of the hospitals have very expensive modern equipment, and there are modern airports everywhere. The country has moved on.

 

The low costs you crave come at a cost: The suffering of the workers and the production of low quality and/or unsafe products. Thailand has full employment and has a labour shortage. Usually, in a free market, wages would rise. However, in Thailand, successive governments have kept wages lower than they would be otherwise.  Yes, you benefit from those low wages, but the poor worker does not. If you really were advocating for the working poor, you would accept some very large cost increases. For example, people love to gripe about the taxi fares. A more realistic  cost would be double what they are now.

 

Why are you afraid of Thailand moving on? Why do so many older foreigners resist the Thais advancing? Is it wrong to desire potable water, or proper sanitation, or  roads that  are less congested etc? These advances require a trade off, a shedding of the outdated and cumbersome eyesores of the past. Adapt or perish.  Thailand's educated youth want similar quality to what  exists in Hong Kong, Japan, South Korea and Singapore.

You won't believe this, but the influx of KPop and J Pop  bands and their accompanying TV shows profiling their lives have highlighted the order, modernity and sophistication of other Asian cities, and young Thais want those things, (as well as the carnal delight of these performers). The urban young don't want dirty street vendors. Old farnags may want them, but those farangs should not try to impose their outdated colonial fantasies on the new youth.

 

 

Have you actually been there recently? Or at all?  It's already evolved- you don't see counterfeit id sellers, etc.  The only counterfeit stuff is crap t shirts, etc, and surely that can be solved if the authorities choose to do so.  The surrounding streets are wonderful imo.

 

KSR is a bit rough, but clearly the problem- if it is to be seen that way- comes from the loud bars and night clubs that have replaced some of the more quaint bars.  Another problem is outside Macdonalds where drunks tend to congregate after getting plastered.  

 

Most else you write concerning pollution and externalising costs is laughable when one considers the damage done by multi-nationals to the planet.  And in any case the food vendors are already cleaning up their act.

 

But above all, you are clearly in the wrong country.  Wouldn't you be best suited to Europe for instance, or Japan maybe?

[newatthis]

58 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

Adapt or perish.  Thailand's educated youth want similar quality to what  exists in Hong Kong, Japan, South Korea and Singapore.

You won't believe this, but the influx of KPop and J Pop  bands and their accompanying TV shows profiling their lives have highlighted the order, modernity and sophistication of other Asian cities, and young Thais want those things, (as well as the carnal delight of these performers). The urban young don't want dirty street vendors. Old farnags may want them, but those farangs should not try to impose their outdated colonial fantasies on the new youth.

This is the most important thing. It doesn't matter what we expats, visitors or backpackers want. the future of Thailand belongs to its youth. If they want their country to progress towards being another Taiwan, Japan or Singapore then so be it. 

Whatever happens, we go with the flow and adjust our lives accordingly.

[newatthis]

2 hours ago, mommysboy said:

Try Singapore... or Switzerland, maybe.  Has it ever crossed your mind that it's you out of place?

But if he likes the changes, why should he "try" somewhere else?

[cmsally]

10 minutes ago, newatthis said:

This is the most important thing. It doesn't matter what we expats, visitors or backpackers want. the future of Thailand belongs to its youth. If they want their country to progress towards being another Taiwan, Japan or Singapore then so be it. 

Whatever happens, we go with the flow and adjust our lives accordingly.

Certainly at the moment Thailand does not belong to its youth. It belongs to its "leaders" and corporate backers. If it belonged to the youth, they would be having a say in how things were run.

[utalkin2me]

Peru has Machu Picchu, Thailand has a place like Khao San Road. 

 

This has to be a good thing. Get rid of the street, let Thailand reidentify itself. It may have been cool in the past, but that place is not cool now I know that for a straight fact. 

[moontang]

speaking of the changing tastes of Thai youth..have you noticed how many can't eat spicy nowadays?  Shocking.  Seems to go along with the local obesity explosion.

Edited August 12, 2018 by moontang

[cmsally]

So if Khaosan Road is not cool, then what could be regarded as cool ?

7-11's are not cool, maybe we should just get rid of them.

[mommysboy]

20 minutes ago, newatthis said:

This is the most important thing. It doesn't matter what we expats, visitors or backpackers want. the future of Thailand belongs to its youth. If they want their country to progress towards being another Taiwan, Japan or Singapore then so be it. 

Whatever happens, we go with the flow and adjust our lives accordingly.

KSR is very popular with young Thais, but perhaps you have never been there.

 

KSR is a tourist area of course.

 

Everyone wants to see better residential areas with cleaner streets. Actually the streets surrounding KSR are quite pleasant.

[mommysboy]

30 minutes ago, newatthis said:

But if he likes the changes, why should he "try" somewhere else?

Because essentially he and others don't appear to like Thai culture and way of life.  And it's not his country.

[billd766]

1 hour ago, LomSak27 said:

?   hehe

 

The powers that be want to transform Bangkok into Singapore. To do that Lee closed Bugis street and transformed it, transformed the city back in the late 70's.

Sadly for the dreamers in the current government I think Singapore had a lot more going for it back then than BK does today, regarding the economics that drive the place. You can tear things down and build a new mall but who is going to buy things there, taxi drivers and noodle salesmen? Same old story

 

Bugis street was rough when I was there in the late 1960s and early 1970s. It was an "interesting" place to go at 2 or 3 am and dead during the daytime.

 

The last time I went to Singapore a few years ago it was a very clean, sterile and safe place but not much fun.

[sanemax]

2 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Because essentially he and others don't appear to like Thai culture and way of life.  And it's not his country.

Thai "culture and way of life" is not all about slumming it on KSR

[billd766]

40 minutes ago, newatthis said:

This is the most important thing. It doesn't matter what we expats, visitors or backpackers want. the future of Thailand belongs to its youth. If they want their country to progress towards being another Taiwan, Japan or Singapore then so be it. 

Whatever happens, we go with the flow and adjust our lives accordingly.

 

I have to disagree with you.

 

The future of Thailand does NOT belong to its youth.

 

It belongs to a few thousand very rich people and THEY are the ones who will decide how Thailand will progress.

 

Unless Thais are willing to stage a revolt against the powers that are in charge now (and it will be very bloody) Thailand will be locked into this time frame for many years.

[cmsally]

35 minutes ago, newatthis said:

This is the most important thing. It doesn't matter what we expats, visitors or backpackers want. the future of Thailand belongs to its youth. If they want their country to progress towards being another Taiwan, Japan or Singapore then so be it. 

Whatever happens, we go with the flow and adjust our lives accordingly.

When my daughter was studying at Chulalongkorn University she often visited Khaosan area with her friends. We often used to go to a number of coffee shops when I went to BKK. There always seemed to be space to park in one of the temple areas; sometimes you had to manhandle a very fat beagle to be able to reverse into the last space!

"Nostalgia" tourism is very big amongst the Thai market. Hence places like Ampawa, Samut Songkram, as well as the restaurants/cafes with an old world feel.

 

My impression at the moment is that govt/big money wants to get a high level of control over the quaint places because they are relatively big and stable earners.

[mommysboy]

37 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Thai "culture and way of life" is not all about slumming it on KSR

 

I didn't say it was, did I?

 

I'm not suggesting everywhere else should be like KSR. It's not a slum anymore at all.  No, Thai culture has many aspects in all sorts of places.  If you don't like any aspect then of course you avoid it. It's not as if KSR is in anyone's face so to speak, because it's small, not in a residential/office area, and is in fact rather difficult to get to.

 

Go there- see for yourself!  You will see that even along KSR the hotels have been modernised, and suit all tastes, even the well to do.  Further Rambutri Lek is quaint and has clean guest houses, as well as some very nice resorts.  Altogether, there is a village feel.

 

Overwhelmingly, the arguments presented against are rather tedious, and might be better aimed at general residential areas and the modern highways.  KSR area is primarily a tourist attraction and different rules apply as they do anywhere else in the world. You go there because you want to, presumably because you like what's on offer. There's a different standard of behaviour- just as there is in any tourist area.

 

Regarding the vendors, primarily the ban is preventing them setting up during daylight hours, which they claim is the time that is most lucrative. At this time, footfall is low anyway.  Moreover, this is a pedestrianised street, so nobody's path is being blocked.

Edited August 12, 2018 by mommysboy

[lamyai3]

50 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

This has to be a good thing. Get rid of the street, let Thailand reidentify itself. It may have been cool in the past, but that place is not cool now I know that for a straight fact. 

Not cool by what standards? It's one of the most cool and iconic backpacker destinations in Asia among gap year kids and adventurous travellers, a reliable temporary stop on possibly their first exciting travel experience striking out on their own. Many of the comments on here showcase a sort of reverse ageism, like old people complaining about young people's taste in music, they'd probably like to ban rap and EDM as well. Leave them kids alone! 

[sanemax]

9 minutes ago, lamyai3 said:

Not cool by what standards? It's one of the most cool and iconic backpacker destinations in Asia among gap year kids and adventurous travellers, a reliable temporary stop on possibly their first exciting travel experience striking out on their own. Many of the comments on here showcase a sort of reverse ageism, like old people complaining about young people's taste in music, they'd probably like to ban rap and EDM as well. Leave them kids alone! 

They can still come to Thailand and visit KSR and other places..............there just wont be as many stalls on KSR .

   LOL. its just a few stalls from one road that have been removed , its not such a big deal

[lamyai3]

53 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Thai "culture and way of life" is not all about slumming it on KSR

Khaosan caters to much more than the dormitory backpacker. The contingent of smelly pierced deadlocked types is in a minority to the average person there, who looks just like a young person on a travel adventure. There's plenty of upscale "hipster chic" type accommodations and dining choices there with prices to match, along with all the usual gentrification (there's been Starbucks there for at least 15 years). Khaosan and the surrounding area also provide a microcosm of grassroots culture here, people can experience Thai massage, take cooking classes, buy ethnic handicrafts, arrange ongoing travel to more unusual places, find an enormous amount of literature in the bookstores on the whole region, and meet like minded people from all over the world. Where else in Bangkok fits that description? 

 

Anyway, the young people have spoken and given a big thumbs down to the changes round there. Bangkok has always been a major point of entry and hub city in Asia and this isn't going to change, so I hope you'll show the kids a warm welcome when they start venturing out into other parts of the city looking for more fun alternatives to hang out in. 

[sanemax]

47 minutes ago, lamyai3 said:

so I hope you'll show the kids a warm welcome when they start venturing out into other parts of the city looking for more fun alternatives to hang out in.

Yeah , there were a group of back-packers sitting behind me on a long distance bus journey recently , I smiled and nodded at them and they blanked me .

  They then started talking quite loudly about sex tourists and how promiscuous they are , taking advantage of the local girls and all that (aimed at me , as I was sat next to my Thai mrs) blah blah blah and talking about themselves sharing a room at their destination.

   I turned around and asked them (bf & gf) how long they had been together for , "We met on the boat from Koh phan gan" , they said proudly , I replied "We have been together for five years and we have a kid together, so huuuusssssh about the sex tourist accusations" I told them

   That quietenned them down a bit 

[lamyai3]

10 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Yeah , there were a group of back-packers sitting behind me on a long distance bus journey recently , I smiled and nodded at them and they blanked me .

  They then started talking quite loudly about sex tourists and how promiscuous they are , taking advantage of the local girls and all that (aimed at me , as I was sat next to my Thai mrs) blah blah blah and talking about themselves sharing a room at their destination.

   I turned around and asked them (bf & gf) how long they had been together for , "We met on the boat from Koh phan gan" , they said proudly , I replied "We have been together for five years and we have a kid together, so huuuusssssh about the sex tourist accusations" I told them

   That quietenned them down a bit 

There's the rub. Many backpackers indeed do view longer established expats this way, it seems like there's a mutual derision at work. Older versions of travel guides like Lonely Planet used to fan the flames by equating the bar districts of town with some level of trafficking, and the recent #MeToo thing has been generally emasculating worldwide, fostering more of these types of views. In reality, the comments from the male in the seat behind you were probably largely bs, given with the main intention of impressing the female. Given all of this though, doesn't it seem expedient that backpackers and long term expats should be able to do their thing away from each other? 

[hottrader77]

On 8/8/2018 at 2:45 AM, MaxYakov said:

Wow! A 297 word sentence (according to the Mac's UNIX wc utility) with only two commas and without an opening capitalized word and a closing period. This has to be some kind of record. It makes me tempted to doubt the quality of the content.

were you a headmnaster in a former life me and mates are all laughing at you ha ha