Chomper Higgot Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 Just now, CG1 Blue said: Ok; defending the right of women to wear an item of clothing that represents the oppression of women. Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app Once again a false accusation. Try this: Defending the right of people to choose what they wear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CG1 Blue Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 who appointed you to judge what's oppression of women and what not? Can you explain to me how it is not oppressive then?Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blazes Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said: I suspect he’s referring to the Chatuchak market variety. I also suspect, given his previous posts in this topic, the only part the ‘pearls’ have in his comment is as a prop to introduce the ‘swine’. Lovely, lovely....clearly you read only the Koran (though your previous posts would suggest otherwise) and not the Bible, where, as you seem not to know, the phrase "pearls before swine" can be found..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chomper Higgot Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 21 minutes ago, blazes said: Lovely, lovely....clearly you read only the Koran (though your previous posts would suggest otherwise) and not the Bible, where, as you seem not to know, the phrase "pearls before swine" can be found..... The only thing you can be sure I’ve read is the forum rules. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolboy Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 3 hours ago, CG1 Blue said: Ok; defending the right of women to wear an item of clothing that represents the oppression of women. Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app It's clear that the burka represents repression to you. The question is whether it represents repression to all of the women who wear it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naam Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 4 hours ago, CG1 Blue said: 4 hours ago, Naam said: who appointed you to judge what's oppression of women and what not? Can you explain to me how it is not oppressive then? can you explain to me how it is oppressive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvinmelvin Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 letterbox clothing is not widely used in muslim countries abayas, and veils in some countries, are widely used abayas are quite fancy today compared to 10-15 years ago, a dress of fashion it is now i love it when in biz class on emirates or qatar flying from doha to dubai, always plenty ladies in the cabin as soon as the doors are closed and they start taxiing they stand up and take off the abaya pretty sexy clothes underneath - tight jeans and blouses with generous openings funny world Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7by7 Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 14 hours ago, My Thai Life said: It’s appalling that a few forum members continue to support the abuse of these women even in the light of evidence of their abuse. What’s even weirder is that these members have convinced themselves they are standing up for these oppressed women. It is appalling that you and others support the removal of freedom of choice from women just because you don't like the religion they follow. None of you have commented on, let alone condemned, the dress codes other religions 'force' on their women; or if you have it's only to call references to such irrelevant. We are talking about Muslim women in the UK, not Saudi, not Iran, not Afghanistan or any other country where the rights and freedoms we enjoy in our democracy are non existent. It is not weird that you and those like you want to remove that freedom from Muslim women; it is expected. 14 hours ago, My Thai Life said: Here’s the view of Qanta Ahmad. You may wish to read her view in conjunction with the posts and links I’ve made of Sadiq Kahn (the muslim Mayor of London), Elham Manea, (a Professor and Swiss-Yemeni citizen and the author of Women and Sharia Law) and Dr Taj Hargey, (the imam at the Oxford Islamic Congregation)…….. As already said, opinions vary; even among Muslims. For every quote you can come up with from a Muslim condemning the Burka, I can find one supporting a women's right to wear it is she chooses. I have linked to some previously from British Muslim women explaining that they choose to wear the veil, and why. BTW, you obviously have still not read the Sadiq Khan interview you mention yet again; he did not say what you want us to think he said. He has also since spoken out in favour of women being allowed to wear the clothing of their choice: 'I don't think anyone should tell women what they can and can't wear. Full stop.' I haven't checked, but I do have to wonder if you have cherry picked from your other sources as much as you have from Khan. BTW, still awaiting the answers to several questions asked of you; why are you dodging them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7by7 Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 15 hours ago, Grouse said: On 8/19/2018 at 3:42 PM, 7by7 said: 1) I want to communicate with people; I cannot understand people with a thick Scottish accent. Ban Scots people until they can speak received pronunciation! 2) Kilts and the associated Victorian fantasies are hideous. Ban them. 3) Both of the above increase my blood pressure. Ban them Do you actually believe any of the statements you have made above? No, you are attempting to elicit a vexed response from me. That is trolling and I shall take action Ok, number 3 is not true. As I have said many times, I believe in a person's right to wear what they choose; even if it is ridiculous looking Victorian fancy dress. The many and varied accents of these islands are also a source of pleasure, even if I can't always understand them; Geordie's another one I have difficulty with.. However, I was trying to make a point about the petty prejudice exhibited in your post On 8/19/2018 at 3:36 PM, Grouse said: On 8/19/2018 at 3:17 PM, 7by7 said: No, but we should respect the right of minorities to make their choices as long as that choice does not impinge on the rights of the majority. So tell us; how are your rights reduced by women wearing the clothing of their choice? I've told you before 1) I want to communicate with people. One cannot communicate with a Burkha 2) They are hideous. They make any scene ugly. An insult to Allah 3) They increase my blood pressure Ban them Your reaction is ample evidence that I succeeded! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quidio Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 Although I am pretty liberal and I have no particular problem with Muslims or any other group, I think it is well within the bounds for governments to put limits on what people may wear in public. These limits are never totally right or wrong, but they do make life a little easier for everyone. I don't like people with a full face helmet on when they aren't riding a motorcycle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7by7 Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 I have posted the views of British Muslim women who live in the UK and who choose to wear the veil previously, here are four more: UK Muslim women on Boris Johnson's racist 'burka' comments (I don't agree with the use of the word 'racist' in this context; but it's misuse by the author does not invalidate these women's comments in any way.) Quotes from the remarks by all four women, but members should, of course, read the whole article. Quote I'm not oppressed - because wearing the niqab is my choice. It's like I have to prove to people I'm not being oppressed. I think it's a form of misogyny to put a woman in a position where she has to constantly justify her actions. ……... Nobody should have pressure to conform to a certain way of dressing - it's all about personal choice...……. I don't think that I am oppressed. I am a geneticist by training - and last week I passed level one of solo sky-diving to become a licensed sky-diver. I can't be oppressed if I do all these things. Women have been choosing to wear the veil out of choice for centuries - it's never been about the Islaminisation of Europe or Britain, it's just about a woman who chooses to wear a certain piece of fabric to practise her faith...….. I see myself as a proactive Muslim - but the best thing I ever did in my life was to put on the niqab. I have been wearing it for more than five years but I regret not wearing it earlier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 On 8/14/2018 at 3:40 PM, bristolboy said: Is this what you are referring to? "ANd how many have actually been killed? And how many secular or moderate Muslim women are there in the UK? Do you have any data for that? Or are you just spewing baseless allegations?" Is this your idea of a personal attack? I challenged what you said. I wrote nothing about your personal qualities or condition or nationality at all. Accusing me of spewing baseless allegations is both personal and an attack. If you don't understand that, there is no point in debating it with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 9 hours ago, 7by7 said: I have posted the views of British Muslim women who live in the UK and who choose to wear the veil previously, here are four more: UK Muslim women on Boris Johnson's racist 'burka' comments (I don't agree with the use of the word 'racist' in this context; but it's misuse by the author does not invalidate these women's comments in any way.) Quotes from the remarks by all four women, but members should, of course, read the whole article. I absolutely support women's right to wear whatever they like, as long as it's appropriate to the environment. No one would dream of walking down Regent St wearing a Brown Shirt uniform complete with swastika because it would be inappropriate, so it's also inappropriate to wear a full face covering on Regent St. If they really want to dress like that, there are many countries where they can do so without problems. Strangely though, they don't seem to want to go live in Afghanistan or Saudi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 10 hours ago, 7by7 said: It is appalling that you and others support the removal of freedom of choice from women just because you don't like the religion they follow. None of you have commented on, let alone condemned, the dress codes other religions 'force' on their women; or if you have it's only to call references to such irrelevant. We are talking about Muslim women in the UK, not Saudi, not Iran, not Afghanistan or any other country where the rights and freedoms we enjoy in our democracy are non existent. It is not weird that you and those like you want to remove that freedom from Muslim women; it is expected. As already said, opinions vary; even among Muslims. For every quote you can come up with from a Muslim condemning the Burka, I can find one supporting a women's right to wear it is she chooses. I have linked to some previously from British Muslim women explaining that they choose to wear the veil, and why. BTW, you obviously have still not read the Sadiq Khan interview you mention yet again; he did not say what you want us to think he said. He has also since spoken out in favour of women being allowed to wear the clothing of their choice: 'I don't think anyone should tell women what they can and can't wear. Full stop.' I haven't checked, but I do have to wonder if you have cherry picked from your other sources as much as you have from Khan. BTW, still awaiting the answers to several questions asked of you; why are you dodging them? For the umpteenth time, while full face coverings may be worn by Muslim women, they are not Islamic dress but cultural. There is no requirement in the Koran for full face covering, hence it is not required in Islam ie NOT Islamic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vogie Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 "It’s time for feminists (male or female) to bring some clarity to the debate about the burqa. The discussion at the moment is dominated by two arguments that defend the burqa from criticism, both coming mainly from female Muslim academics who work and publish from comfortable posts in prominent universities in the United States or Europe, who do not live under the constraints of Sharia law." https://newhumanist.org.uk/articles/4199/why-feminists-should-oppose-the-burqa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolboy Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 9 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said: I absolutely support women's right to wear whatever they like, as long as it's appropriate to the environment. No one would dream of walking down Regent St wearing a Brown Shirt uniform complete with swastika because it would be inappropriate, so it's also inappropriate to wear a full face covering on Regent St. If they really want to dress like that, there are many countries where they can do so without problems. Strangely though, they don't seem to want to go live in Afghanistan or Saudi. Because it's not "appropriate"? Appropriate to what purpose exactly? There was a time when miniskirts weren't considered appropriate. By your lights they should have been banned. Really, I thought the fashion police was just a figure of speech. Apparently you want it to be a real thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chomper Higgot Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 13 minutes ago, vogie said: "It’s time for feminists (male or female) to bring some clarity to the debate about the burqa. The discussion at the moment is dominated by two arguments that defend the burqa from criticism, both coming mainly from female Muslim academics who work and publish from comfortable posts in prominent universities in the United States or Europe, who do not live under the constraints of Sharia law." https://newhumanist.org.uk/articles/4199/why-feminists-should-oppose-the-burqa You have, on numerous occasions in this thread, been presented with arguments relating to defending the right of individuals to choose how to dress/how not to dress. You now post a statement that there are only two arguments, excluding the one I have mentioned and that you are absolutely aware of. I’ll now add a fourth: You mention ‘prominent Universities in the US’, these are either private organizations or public ally funded. If at all publically funded the staff and students at those universities have the (First Amendment) right to dress as they please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chomper Higgot Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 43 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said: I absolutely support women's right to wear whatever they like, as long as it's appropriate to the environment. No one would dream of walking down Regent St wearing a Brown Shirt uniform complete with swastika because it would be inappropriate, so it's also inappropriate to wear a full face covering on Regent St. If they really want to dress like that, there are many countries where they can do so without problems. Strangely though, they don't seem to want to go live in Afghanistan or Saudi. The ‘Brown Shirt’ uniform and the ‘Swastika’ are symbols of a racist, racist ideology and hatred that cost the lives of tens of millions of people before its defeat. It is in no sense equivalent to religious forms of dress. However, your gross derogatory generalizations aimed at an ethnic/religious minority are right out of the ‘Brown Shirt’ playbook. I suggest you run your idea that people you don’t agree with should go live somewhere else past the history of the ‘Brown Shirts’ and while you are at it, have a read of ‘Magna Carta’ - it has something to say on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dick dasterdly Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said: I absolutely support women's right to wear whatever they like, as long as it's appropriate to the environment. No one would dream of walking down Regent St wearing a Brown Shirt uniform complete with swastika because it would be inappropriate, so it's also inappropriate to wear a full face covering on Regent St. If they really want to dress like that, there are many countries where they can do so without problems. Strangely though, they don't seem to want to go live in Afghanistan or Saudi. 2 hours ago, bristolboy said: Because it's not "appropriate"? Appropriate to what purpose exactly? There was a time when miniskirts weren't considered appropriate. By your lights they should have been banned. Really, I thought the fashion police was just a figure of speech. Apparently you want it to be a real thing. The miniskirt was a fashion - so entirely different to wearing a piece of cloth covering your face. Unless you think choosing to wear the burka is becoming something similar to a 'fashion statement' for the few Muslim women that genuinely choose to wear this piece of cloth covering their face? Although, thinking about it, perhaps it is - as there is clearly no religious or logical reason for wearing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chomper Higgot Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said: The miniskirt was a fashion - so entirely different to wearing a piece of cloth covering your face. Unless you think choosing to wear the burka is becoming something similar to a 'fashion statement' for the few Muslim women that genuinely choose to wear this piece of cloth covering their face? Although, thinking about it, perhaps it is - as there is clearly no religious or logical reason for wearing it. Once again you ignore the statements made by women who chose to wear these garments. Allow them to choose. Provided what they choose is not hurting anyone else, why should their choice bother you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dick dasterdly Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 4 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said: Once again you ignore the statements made by women who chose to wear these garments. Allow them to choose. Provided what they choose is not hurting anyone else, why should their choice bother you? How often do I have to say this? Because it is just a piece of cloth covering their face, for no logical or religious reason. Women in the uk have fought long and hard for equality, so this misogynistic piece of cloth is an affront to the equality for which, many have fought so hard. As I've also repeatedly said, it separates them from the rest of society. Most of us have no problem at all chatting and becoming friends with women showing their Moslem faith by wearing a headscarf - but are extremely unlikely to start a conversation/friendship with anyone wearing a nikab! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chomper Higgot Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 34 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said: How often do I have to say this? Because it is just a piece of cloth covering their face, for no logical or religious reason. Women in the uk have fought long and hard for equality, so this misogynistic piece of cloth is an affront to the equality for which, many have fought so hard. As I've also repeatedly said, it separates them from the rest of society. Most of us have no problem at all chatting and becoming friends with women showing their Moslem faith by wearing a headscarf - but are extremely unlikely to start a conversation/friendship with anyone wearing a nikab! Say it as often as you wish, it’s irrelevant to the point that you are advocating restring individual choice. I guess these women need you to save them, despite clearly stating they are making their own choices for their own reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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