UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[nauseus]

38 minutes ago, sandyf said:

That is the shorthand version, the detail is in the TFEU.

You can argue the toss on the terminology but this is what brexiteers would prefer to forget.

" the right of residence depends on their having sufficient resources not to become a burden on the host Member State’s social assistance system, and having sickness insurance."

 

This is what I was referring to when I mentioned "conditions and restrictions but these are difficult to control or are not well applied". 

 

It is not so easy to send people away and enforcing the rules is time-consuming and costly. EU Citizens have several other EU rights to fall back on if they face removal back to their home nations. Just yet another sub-web of control and imposition from the EU.

Edited October 2, 2018 by nauseus

[CG1 Blue]

26 minutes ago, tebee said:

 

There is no deal in the offing that seems acceptable to both sides - indeed there is no deal in the offing that seems acceptable to both sides of the Conservative party!

 

We are heading towards no deal   anyway - the government is preparing us for that.

 

So should we have a vote on the choice between no deal and remain?

I think they'll agree a deal at the last minute. There is a lot of posturing going on at this stage, but a deal will be done in the end IMO.

 

The problem with your proposal (I assume that's what you would like?), is there are too many unknowns.

 

- By what date will we know a deal is definitely not going to be done, and how long would that give us to run a referendum?

- Can we unilaterally reverse Article 50? (that is still unclear)

- Will the EU remove the UK's existing concessions if we were to technically re-join?

- How will Leave voters react if Remain scrapes a win this time? Large scale civil unrest I suspect

 

 

 

 

Edited October 2, 2018 by CG1 Blue

[dunroaming]

13 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

I'd be happy with that - a 2nd referendum with the only options on the ballot paper being different versions of leaving the EU.

With regard to your comment: "But surely the peoples vote would be after the negotiations are completed", the thing is, the EU would still know during the negotiations that we're going to have a 2nd referendum. Unless we keep it a secret from them until negotiations are complete? ????

 

No reason to confirm a final vote at all.  Theresa May keeps saying everyday that there isn't going to be one.  I think she agrees with you about weakening our position if we announce one.  That makes sense to me.

 

Interesting that you would be happy with a second vote if it was on the deal we would accept.  Looking at the way the government is split, they may be the options the country is left with anyway.

[Orac]

 
No reason to confirm a final vote at all.  Theresa May keeps saying everyday that there isn't going to be one.  I think she agrees with you about weakening our position if we announce one.  That makes sense to me.
 
Interesting that you would be happy with a second vote if it was on the deal we would accept.  Looking at the way the government is split, they may be the options the country is left with anyway.

The problem with leaving the remain option off any future referendum would be spoilt ballots which do count in the final totals. There were only 25.3k rejected ballot papers in the previous vote so not enough to cause a problem but, should a concerted effort be made to by voters to not check either box or both then you could end up with no clear majority for either option and a massive protest vote which would cause yet more division.

Any future referendum, whether it includes a remain option or not, is a recipe for disaster since it is, in effect, a request to govt/parliament to carry out a particular action and the current bunch of politicians , on all sides, is woefully incapable of delivering on any plan involving significant change.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[dunroaming]

13 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

- How will Leave voters react if Remain scrapes a win this time? Large scale civil unrest I suspect

 

Sorry to butt in as the post wasn't directed at me.

 

I think there would be civil unrest and a considerable amount of it.  But also if there is a no deal conclusion.  Might not come from the same people but just as vitriolic I would have thought.  That is what makes this whole Brexit thing so toxic and the blame game is likely to go on for years.

[nauseus]

11 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

I think they'll agree a deal at the last minute. There is a lot of posturing going on at this stage, but a deal will be done in the end IMO.

 

The problem with your proposal (I assume that's what you would like?), is there are to many unknowns.

 

- By what date will we know a deal is definitely not going to be done, and how long would that give us to run a referendum?

- Can we unilaterally reverse Article 50? (that is still unclear)

- Will the EU remove the UK's existing concessions if we were to technically re-join?

- How will Leave voters react if Remain scrapes a win this time? Large scale civil unrest I suspect

 

 

 

 

 

This answers some of your questions I think:

 

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2016/577971/EPRS_BRI(2016)577971_EN.pdf

 

An extension of A50 is possible if both sides agree but a reversal is not mentioned.

 

Rejoining again see A49.

 

Interesting to note that A50 section 2 says: "In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union".

 

So, from the above, I suppose that the Council guidelines are just to reject any and all proposals and also refuse to come up with anything sensible themselves? Great stuff!

 

 

[dunroaming]

3 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

The problem with leaving the remain option off any future referendum would be spoilt ballots which do count in the final totals. There were only 25.3k rejected ballot papers in the previous vote so not enough to cause a problem but, should a concerted effort be made to by voters to not check either box or both then you could end up with no clear majority for either option and a massive protest vote which would cause yet more division.

Any future referendum, whether it includes a remain option or not, is a recipe for disaster since it is, in effect, a request to govt/parliament to carry out a particular action and the current bunch of politicians , on all sides, is woefully incapable of delivering on any plan involving significant change.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

I am sure behind closed doors there are countless committees looking at trying to find the least damaging conclusion to Brexit.  The least damaging concerning the response by the people to whatever deal (or no deal) is struck.  Johnson continues to whip up the crowd along with JRM, not that Jacob could whip up anything much, while May tries to pull the party together. 

[adammike]

1 hour ago, CG1 Blue said:

But how can 'Remain' be an option on any ballot paper without it incentivising the EU commission to give us a really bad deal? I don't think it can.

Because it's the will of the people there are now more remainers than leavers, just deal with it,brexit has been well and truly <deleted>..ed up ,you brexiteers just can't deal with the facts you live in some rule Brittania fantasy world.Just wait and see what sort of shit storm you have stirred up on the island of Ireland.You will be fine in your offshore tax haven.

[CG1 Blue]

50 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

Interesting that you would be happy with a second vote if it was on the deal we would accept.  Looking at the way the government is split, they may be the options the country is left with anyway.

It is hard to see how a deal would get through parliament at the moment. Labour will vote against any deal the Tories bring to the table, because they want a GE. And between the Lib Dems and the hard Remainers from all sides of the house, I'm almost certain the deal would be voted down.

 

Where would that leave the government? I guess they can either say "ok, we leave with no deal", or they hand the power back to the general public and give them Ref 2, on the basis of deal or no deal. But even that decision would need parliamentary agreement!

[CG1 Blue]

6 minutes ago, adammike said:

2 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

But how can 'Remain' be an option on any ballot paper without it incentivising the EU commission to give us a really bad deal? I don't think it can.

Because it's the will of the people there are now more remainers than leavers, just deal with it,brexit has been well and truly <deleted>..ed up ,you brexiteers just can't deal with the facts you live in some rule Brittania fantasy world.Just wait and see what sort of shit storm you have stirred up on the island of Ireland.You will be fine in your offshore tax haven.

 

You didn't answer the question.

[adammike]

38 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

 

I am sure behind closed doors there are countless committees looking at trying to find the least damaging conclusion to Brexit.  The least damaging concerning the response by the people to whatever deal (or no deal) is struck.  Johnson continues to whip up the crowd along with JRM, not that Jacob could whip up anything much, while May tries to pull the party together. 

May is more concerned about her legacy she will already go down as a terrible home secretary and she will go down as one of if not the worst PM ever.Thatcher was saved by the Falklands the only hope May has is her version of Brexit saving her against all the odds at least it shouldn't cost the lives of a bunch of British and Argentinan lads,though it may well shorten the lives of the disabled and disadvantaged.

[adammike]

1 minute ago, CG1 Blue said:

 

You didn't answer the question.

There is no deal to be had you will be in the EU or out and that's what will be on the ballot.

[CG1 Blue]

8 minutes ago, adammike said:

Because it's the will of the people there are now more remainers than leavers, just deal with it,brexit has been well and truly <deleted>..ed up ,you brexiteers just can't deal with the facts you live in some rule Brittania fantasy world.Just wait and see what sort of shit storm you have stirred up on the island of Ireland.You will be fine in your offshore tax haven. 

Just when the discussion was becoming all civilised, you managed to bring it back down to football chanting level

[CG1 Blue]

Just now, adammike said:

There is no deal to be had you will be in the EU or out and that's what will be on the ballot.

Ok, so you don't understand the question.  That's fair enough.

[adammike]

2 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Just when the discussion was becoming all civilised, you managed to bring it back down to football chanting level

Yo Snowflake, you just can't handle the truth. 

[My Thai Life]

Many remain posters reiterate the cliche that the EU is just following rules and rules can’t be changed. I have maintained that there are numerous examples of the EU flexing rules or introducing new rules, especially when driven by the interests of the major player - Germany.

 

Norbert Röttgen, Germany’s de facto leader in the EU and, the German parliament’s foreign affairs committee chairman illustrates my point in today’s Guardian. By the way, I don’t agree with his proposal as it stands, but it illustrate two of my main points: the EU will flex rules when it needs to; and Germany is the prime mover.

 

“In one of the first signs that Germany may be willing to take up at least part of Theresa May’s Chequers proposals, Röttgen said the EU should be prepared to give the UK access to the single market in relation to goods, but not services, in return for the UK accepting EU rules and the customs union for goods.

 He said the EU could in return offer unspecified concessions on free movement. Setting up an architecture allowing the frictionless movement of UK goods – in effect inside a customs union – would effectively solve the Northern Ireland border problem, he claimed.

He said: “The EU is wrong to claim there can be no division between goods and services to maintain the integrity of the internal market. It is a position on which the EU has to change to find compromise. Britain, in order to resolve the border question, has to accept a frictionless regime of free movement of goods but without having any say on how the rules apply to Britain.”

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/oct/02/referendum-only-way-to-heal-brexit-divisions-says-top-german-politician

Edited October 2, 2018 by My Thai Life

[candide]

10 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Many remain posters reiterate the cliche that the EU is just following rules and rule can’t be changed. I have maintained that there are numerous examples of the EU flexing rules or introducing new rules, especially when driven by the interests of the major player - Germany.

 

Norbert Röttgen, Germany’ s de facto leader in the EU and, the German parliament’s foreign affairs committee chairman illustrates my point in today’s Guardian. By the way, I don’t agree with his proposal as it stands, but it illustrate two of my main points: the EU will flex rules when it needs to; and Germany ois the primer mover.

 

“In one of the first signs that Germany may be willing to take up at least part of Theresa May’s Chequers proposals, Röttgen said the EU should be prepared to give the UK access to the single market in relation to goods, but not services, in return for the UK accepting EU rules and the customs union for goods.

 He said the EU could in return offer unspecified concessions on free movement. Setting up an architecture allowing the frictionless movement of UK goods – in effect inside a customs union – would effectively solve the Northern Ireland border problem, he claimed.

He said: “The EU is wrong to claim there can be no division between goods and services to maintain the integrity of the internal market. It is a position on which the EU has to change to find compromise. Britain, in order to resolve the border question, has to accept a frictionless regime of free movement of goods but without having any say on how the rules apply to Britain.”

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/oct/02/referendum-only-way-to-heal-brexit-divisions-says-top-german-politician

Nothing new there. This point of view has been presented already in 2016.

http://www.worldcommercereview.com/html/pisani-ferry%2C-rottgen%2C-sapir%2C-tucker-and-wolff-europe-after-brexit.html

[dunroaming]

11 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Many remain posters reiterate the cliche that the EU is just following rules and rule can’t be changed. I have maintained that there are numerous examples of the EU flexing rules or introducing new rules, especially when driven by the interests of the major player - Germany.

 

Norbert Röttgen, Germany’ s de facto leader in the EU and, the German parliament’s foreign affairs committee chairman illustrates my point in today’s Guardian. By the way, I don’t agree with his proposal as it stands, but it illustrate two of my main points: the EU will flex rules when it needs to; and Germany ois the primer mover.

 

“In one of the first signs that Germany may be willing to take up at least part of Theresa May’s Chequers proposals, Röttgen said the EU should be prepared to give the UK access to the single market in relation to goods, but not services, in return for the UK accepting EU rules and the customs union for goods.

 He said the EU could in return offer unspecified concessions on free movement. Setting up an architecture allowing the frictionless movement of UK goods – in effect inside a customs union – would effectively solve the Northern Ireland border problem, he claimed.

He said: “The EU is wrong to claim there can be no division between goods and services to maintain the integrity of the internal market. It is a position on which the EU has to change to find compromise. Britain, in order to resolve the border question, has to accept a frictionless regime of free movement of goods but without having any say on how the rules apply to Britain.”

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/oct/02/referendum-only-way-to-heal-brexit-divisions-says-top-german-politician

 

Britain is a service driven economy.  The movement of goods is good, especially for the foreign car manufacturers in the UK (think Germany for one).  Not surprising then that Germany would be open to this plan

[dunroaming]

36 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

It is hard to see how a deal would get through parliament at the moment. Labour will vote against any deal the Tories bring to the table, because they want a GE. And between the Lib Dems and the hard Remainers from all sides of the house, I'm almost certain the deal would be voted down.

 

Where would that leave the government? I guess they can either say "ok, we leave with no deal", or they hand the power back to the general public and give them Ref 2, on the basis of deal or no deal. But even that decision would need parliamentary agreement!

 

I can't see much that's positive for either side at the moment and I agree that just about any deal presented will be rejected.  But somehow there has to be an endgame.

[candide]

19 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

 

Britain is a service driven economy.  The movement of goods is good, especially for the foreign car manufacturers in the UK (think Germany for one).  Not surprising then that Germany would be open to this plan

It's not a "German" plan. It's a personal position he has elaborated 2 years ago together with French, American and Belgian academics (see link in my previous post). Apparently, how interesting it may be, this position has not gained much acceptance since.

[CG1 Blue]

49 minutes ago, adammike said:

Yo Snowflake, you just can't handle the truth. 

Wow, genius

[kwilco]

More fromthan "project fear" or to use the secret code word - "project critical thinking" (we can use this secret code word publicly as no Brexiteer knows what it means) ...

 

 

https://www.cer.eu/insights/cost-brexit-june-2018

 

There is now not a single car manufacturer in UK that regards Brexiteer as a good idea, most consider it catastrophic

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-45718930

 

[kwilco]

1 hour ago, dunroaming said:

 

Britain is a service driven economy.  The movement of goods is good, especially for the foreign car manufacturers in the UK (think Germany for one).  Not surprising then that Germany would be open to this plan

Until about 2 years ago UK was a prime mover in the EU with an economy set to grow bigger than Germany's by 2020

[BwindiBoy]

7 hours ago, kwilco said:

"Immigrants who come to work in Britain, should all be given an equal opportunity based on what skills they have. Nationality should not come in to it. Being a member of the EU makes that an impossible aim."

 

What a totally irrational think to say!

Unbelievable thinking, if you really mean that.

[BwindiBoy]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

That is the shorthand version, the detail is in the TFEU.

You can argue the toss on the terminology but this is what brexiteers would prefer to forget.

" the right of residence depends on their having sufficient resources not to become a burden on the host Member State’s social assistance system, and having sickness insurance."

 

So how come my home town is plagued with unemployed Romanians, who are assaulting, sexually assaulting, raping, and thieving their way to ruining the town? Their kids are terrorising the local kids (and adults), from the age if 6, riding around in gangs, robbing mobile phones, bicycles and other property out of the hands of frightened locals. How come these benefits leaching scum are able to stay here without "sufficient resources not to become a burden"?!

[welovesundaysatspace]

1 minute ago, BwindiBoy said:

How come these benefits leaching scum are able to stay here without "sufficient resources not to become a burden"?!

Because law and law enforcement are not the same thing. 

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, adammike said:

May is more concerned about her legacy she will already go down as a terrible home secretary and she will go down as one of if not the worst PM ever.Thatcher was saved by the Falklands the only hope May has is her version of Brexit saving her against all the odds at least it shouldn't cost the lives of a bunch of British and Argentinan lads,though it may well shorten the lives of the disabled and disadvantaged.

 

What a terrible way to try to make an even more terrible and non-comparison.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, kwilco said:

Until about 2 years ago UK was a prime mover in the EU with an economy set to grow bigger than Germany's by 2020

 

Funny stuff! 

[Janner1]

On 8/10/2018 at 6:27 AM, webfact said:

UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

NO WE SHOULD NOT!

The people of Great Britain and Northern Ireland took a democratic vote to leave the European Union, it was an all inclusive YES or NO vote for EVERYBODY with a Brish passport.

 

we did not at any time take any other vote for amendments, or deals, and the form of the question was forced on the Government by the remainers before the vote was taken because the original wording of the question was deemed to guarantee the vote would go the way it actually did, and they wanted to use the scare factor in a simple yes or no vote thinking that fear would prevail.

 

However they and the Government of the day completely misunderstood the ground root feelings of all of the people that fear would only win over the remainers and not the knowledgable people of Great Britain, and the remainers lost the DEMOCRATIC vote.

 

Now for those of you who have no idea here is a few facts for you to suck on.

 

when the vote was announced.

 

Leaders of countries around the world rushed to our shores to broker trade deals.

Manufacturing along with exports have literally gone through the roof.

job creation has taken off and we are now the envy of the European Union.

Unemployment has gone from a stagnant 12% to under 4% and still falling

These are just a few facts fully reported and substantiated and upon Brett many more benefits of being outside will be forthcoming.

 

Finally for the remainers and others who are trying all they can to userp the will of the people in a Democratic vote 

YOU LOST 

Now wake up and smell the coffee and get used to it.

 

And for those who live in Thailand or another country and think that Brexit is wrong just answer these questions.

How would you know?

When was the last time you LIVED in England?

Why did you leave England? You did not do it because you loved England, or because you cared about England.

You left because you wanted to live a lifestyle that gave you a freedom that you could not achieve in England because of restrictions, dictates and punitive taxes forced upon you by European controllers and I do not blame you in any way for that, but the fact is for whatever your reasons were, you exited your country so how can you justifiably say Brexit was wrong.

[Janner1]

41 minutes ago, BwindiBoy said:

So how come my home town is plagued with unemployed Romanians, who are assaulting, sexually assaulting, raping, and thieving their way to ruining the town? Their kids are terrorising the local kids (and adults), from the age if 6, riding around in gangs, robbing mobile phones, bicycles and other property out of the hands of frightened locals. How come these benefits leaching scum are able to stay here without "sufficient resources not to become a burden"?!

Because the EUROPEAN UNION said we must take them and give the sustenance