UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[billd766]

6 hours ago, oilinki said:

I was just pointing out how silly the demands for EU to change its rules, because one exiting member, really are. 

 

Yet you think we should change our rules in our country to suit you and the EU.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

Yet you think we should change our rules in our country to suit you and the EU.

What rules?

[billd766]

5 hours ago, oilinki said:

This topic and any Brexit discussion is about my country, EU. 

 

I meant that UK has had special love/hate relationship towards EU the whole time. Half in, half out. Now finally the labile position is going to be over and UK will be all out. That creates stability.

 

It may have escaped your notice but the EU is not actually a country. If you discount the UK the EU is actually 27 separate sovereign countries that the EU sees as vassal states.

[billd766]

21 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Juncker is the best secret weapon that the leave campaign has ever had.

 

“Jean-Claude Juncker has insisted that there must be limits to the freedom of the press as he accused British media of trampling over the human rights of politicians.” From Today's Guardian.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/06/juncker-criticises-british-media-and-urges-limits-to-press-freedom

I particularly like this little snippet fro Juncker in the Guardians post.

 

"In an outspoken interview at a crunch point in the Brexit negotiations, the European commission president also lamented that the former prime minister, David Cameron, had blocked him from campaigning during the 2016 referendum.

 

“If the commission intervened, perhaps the right questions would have entered the debate,”

 

Juncker told a group of Austrian newspapers. “Now you discover new problems almost daily, on both sides. At that time, it was already clear to us what trials and tribulations this pitiful vote of the British would lead to. I am always amazed about what I am always blamed for.”

 

I have put in bold and underlined the bit that makes me laugh. The EU wants to get rid of the UK and Brexit yet they also wanted to interfere and ask THEIR OWN questions.

 

Strangely enough they will not allow a referendum in any country of the EU.

[billd766]

18 minutes ago, oilinki said:

What rules?

 

Please go back several pages to the post that you and I were talking about, read them slowly and try to answer the simple question.

[aright]

1 hour ago, candide said:

Well, there's not a wide agreement with your diagnostic on each of these issues.

Personally I feel my national identity is well protected in the EU, in particular from powerfull Russian, American or Chinese interference, or even from German interference. Better than if we had to deal with them directly with them.

The threatening comments made by the Chinese about future post-Brexit deals, after British ships patrolled with the US navy, is quite instructive in this perspective.

Are you saying your national identity is defined by your neuroses about  Russian, American and Chinese interference in the affairs of the EU?  I find that illogical and astonishing. 

You seem to not want to define your national identity beyond telling us how frightened you are.

 

 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

Please go back several pages to the post that you and I were talking about, read them slowly and try to answer the simple question.

If you talk about the pension fund rules, I believe I answered to that already. Please go back several pages... 

[billd766]

5 minutes ago, oilinki said:

If you talk about the pension fund rules, I believe I answered to that already. Please go back several pages... 

Try reading post #4081 and no you didn't answer it.

[candide]

10 minutes ago, aright said:

Are you saying your national identity is defined by your neuroses about  Russian, American and Chinese interference in the affairs of the EU?  I find that illogical and astonishing. 

You seem to not want to define your national identity beyond telling us how frightened you are.

 

 

I used the word 'protect', not 'define'. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Try reading post #4081 and no you didn't answer it.

Eh.. no, I don't really think you should change your pension funds rules, no, not really. Really not no. Not really.

 

Then again.. stipping off the pensions from people who voted to leave, to cover the costs of Brexit, might be an idea worth investigating.. 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

6 hours ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

I think we can agree on that difference.

 

The UK voted to join the EEC - an economic alliance of similar nations. We never voted to be part of a federal Europe comprising 28 countries.

 

I am surprised  that Fins don’t have a stronger national identity.

Same here, but I think it's probably safer to keep such appraisals on a person to person basis, to be fair.

 

Maybe Herra Oilinki is in the minority? As the Finns I have met (I have couple of Finnish mates in BKK) seemed to have a far stronger sense of national identity and their allegiance always seems very much to Finland and not the EU.

 

Each to their own I suppose, after all the USSR was adored by a select few that weren't buried under the 'road of bones' or banished to the goulag. 

????

 

Edited October 6, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

35 minutes ago, billd766 said:

I particularly like this little snippet fro Juncker in the Guardians post.

 

"In an outspoken interview at a crunch point in the Brexit negotiations, the European commission president also lamented that the former prime minister, David Cameron, had blocked him from campaigning during the 2016 referendum.

 

“If the commission intervened, perhaps the right questions would have entered the debate,”

 

Juncker told a group of Austrian newspapers. “Now you discover new problems almost daily, on both sides. At that time, it was already clear to us what trials and tribulations this pitiful vote of the British would lead to. I am always amazed about what I am always blamed for.”

 

I have put in bold and underlined the bit that makes me laugh. The EU wants to get rid of the UK and Brexit yet they also wanted to interfere and ask THEIR OWN questions.

 

Strangely enough they will not allow a referendum in any country of the EU.

Unsurprising, the arrogance and pomposity of these people knows no bounds. Just another reason to get the hell out while the getting's good.

 

[My Thai Life]

A number of posters here seem to think that everything in the EU is rosy, but Moody's, the credit rating agency, takes a somewhat different view: 

 

"The next eurozone recession could be even worse as governments and central banks have run out of ammunition to fight a new crisis, credit ratings agency Moody’s has warned.

Governments in Italy, Spain and France have failed to meaningfully cut their debts, while the European Central Bank is still printing money under the quantitative easing (QE) programme.

As a result there will be little room to step in with financial support should the economy slump.

Moreover, countries with weak economies and high levels of unemployment have taken too few steps to reform during the recovery, so they remain uncompetitive."

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/10/01/eurozone-has-no-ammunition-fight-next-recession-hits-warns-moodys/

 

Edited October 6, 2018 by CharlieH
Oversized txt adjusted

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

3 hours ago, JAG said:

Speaking personally, absolutely on the contrary. As a result of the appreciation process which  I went through before deciding how to cast my vote, (I voted to leave) I decided that the medium and long-term interests of the UK would be served by leaving the UK. I voted accordingly and with absolutely no expectation that there would be any special deal for the UK. I also expected that the EU and the UK would sensibly co-operate in the process of arranging the departure, allowing for arrangements to control borders, collect tariffs if necessary, and allow matters such as aviation, supply and accreditation of medicines, and international cooperation on mutually beneficial projects to continue.

 

I concluded that in all probability, whatever the views of the various other member states would be, the EU commission and its other executive branches would be as difficult, truculent and obstructive as possible towards the UK. They would, I surmised, do this for three main reasons. First because the UK's withdrawal would leave a colossal hole in the EU's future budget plans, and the EU depends upon access to liberal and continuing  amounts of cash to maintain its march towards an "ever closer union". Second, the decision of the UK, in particular in the face of their intransigence towards David Camerons insistence on meaningful reforms, was a direct challenge to their authority, and therefore to be rebuffed - if Cameron's mission had resulted in any movement towards reform I was actually prepared to voter (holding my nose) to remain in the EU. Thirdly, I very much expected that the UK would be "made an example" to curb any other nations desire to leave.

A fourth point, which has subsequently occurred to me is a degree of dislike in the UK from amongst those in charge of the negotiations - Messrs Junker and Barnier, although this has I suspect flavoured rather than dictated their approach to the matter. I was also surprised by the EU's enthusiasm for keeping Northern Ireland effectively within their sphere of control - and I doubt whether this has any regard to the views of the majority of people in that unfortunate province! I personally tend to the view that the whole of the Island of Ireland should be one country, but I think that should principally be the decision of the people of Northern Ireland ( in conjunction with The Republic of Ireland) rather than the decision of the EU executive.

 

My ego has not been hurt one iota. I am however saddened that the continent in which I have lived and travelled widely over much of my adult life, and two of whose primary languages I speak, is being driven to harm my country, the UK, especially in view of the UK's significant contribution and commitment to Europe over the last century. And before you question or scoff at that contribution, walk through the cemeteries which are scattered so thickly across Northern France and Belgium. It is not just all about the economics...

A few important points very well made! 

 

Cue the inevitable abusive retorts and accusations of being a backward looking, little-Englander. Almost as if the crucial events of the past century count for nothing and haven't shaped the continent so indelibly. Or, that we have the right as supposedly a 'sovereign nation', to act as we see fit, and for our decision to be respected.

 

It is the snide remarks and baying for punitive measures to be taken against the UK that bothers me most. The arrogance and duplicity of it is simply stunning, especially when the events of the last century are taken into consideration, as they should be!

 

It certainly isn't all about economics and never was for myself and great a many more who voted Leave.

 

I find it very interesting that almost the entire pro-remain argument is based on perceived financial gain with a very few minor extras thrown in. The fact that perceived short term personal gains or losses seem to be at the forefront of a great many people's minds, rather than the fundamental issues of sovereignty, legislation, our ability to control our own affairs including economic ones and of course - democracy (or the lack of it) - is discouraging to put it mildly. Viewed from this self-serving perspective many of the truly bad developing totalitarian states would have looked pretty good too...in their early days at least.

 

The fact that some of us see that but many others don't worries me quite a bit.

 

Edited October 6, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[CharlieH]

Off topic removed.

 

Please keep it civil and dont get personal in your remarks toward others.

7) You will respect fellow members and post in a civil manner. No personal attacks, hateful or insulting towards other members, (flaming) Stalking of members on either the forum or via PM will not be allowed.

 

[JAG]

25 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

snip...It is the snide remarks and baying for punitive measures to be taken against the UK that bothers me most. The arrogance and duplicity of it is simply stunning, especially when the events of the last century are taken into consideration, as they should be! ,,,snip.

3

Yes, and what bothers (no surprises and saddens me) is that so often these cries come from citizens of the UK! It's almost as if the unfettered ability to guzzle St Ager bleu, drink cheap Bordeaux and access ones holiday cottage in the Dordogne without having to show a passport outweighs (I was going to say "trumps" but that has unfortunate connotations these days!) any consideration about the medium and long-term future of the country.

 

What really annoys (grips my sh*t in the vernacular) is the accusation that anyone who does not hold the remain camp's views is ignorant, ill-educated, stupid, old and holds extreme right-wing views - I think that I am quite well educated, reasonably intelligent ( I know lots of long words like wheelbarrow and marmalade) and hold fairly liberal conservative views (note the use of the lower case). I will admit to being a little bit oldish...

 

I think that the result of the referendum has stirred up such bitterness because it has overturned a rather cosy long-standing consensus amongst the political and politicised classes, perhaps (obviously) not one which was shared by the majority.

Edited October 6, 2018 by JAG

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

It is the snide remarks and baying for punitive measures to be taken against the UK that bothers me most. The arrogance and duplicity of it is simply stunning, especially when the events of the last century are taken into consideration, as they should be!

Ok, good, you understand how bothering is it to hear snide remarks of your country or your people. I assume you can then also relate to snide and false remarks like,

 

EUSSR, unelected EU crooks, EU need us, more than we need them, etc. etc. what we have heard here and even by UK government. 

 

Here is UK's foreign secretary comparing EU to USSR. That is not speech by an adult and not definitely by a foreign secretary of any country.

 

Here is UK's MEP at the European parliament, saying lies earlier.

 

And notice the difference the way EU's Tusk responses. That's an adult response.

 

[vogie]

5 minutes ago, oilinki said:

Ok, good, you understand how bothering is it to hear snide remarks of your country or your people. I assume you can then also relate to snide and false remarks like,

 

EUSSR, unelected EU crooks, EU need us, more than we need them, etc. etc. what we have heard here and even by UK government. 

 

Here is UK's foreign secretary comparing EU to USSR. That is not speech by an adult and not definitely by a foreign secretary of any country.

 

Here is UK's MEP at the European parliament, saying lies earlier.

 

And notice the difference the way EU's Tusk responses. That's an adult response.

 

Why don't we compare leaders oli. It seems to me you have lost the moral high ground.

 

 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

30 minutes ago, oilinki said:

Ok, good, you understand how bothering is it to hear snide remarks of your country or your people. I assume you can then also relate to snide and false remarks like,

 

EUSSR, unelected EU crooks, EU need us, more than we need them, etc. etc. what we have heard here and even by UK government. 

 

Here is UK's foreign secretary comparing EU to USSR. That is not speech by an adult and not definitely by a foreign secretary of any country.

 

Here is UK's MEP at the European parliament, saying lies earlier.

 

And notice the difference the way EU's Tusk responses. That's an adult response.

 

 

I'm not necessarily supporting all of their sentiments here, although I would second much of what Hunt said and Farage to my mind, is the most honest person in the whole EU Parliament. BUT I take your point that diplomatic language should be used in place of ad-hominem attacks and the like. I have to say though, that this has been the preserve of the remain side of the argument in the UK, far more than that of Leave. So you or others on the other side really cannot take the moral high ground!

 

The key difference here too is the fact that comparisons between the USSR and EU are totally valid and the people who run the show within the EU are 100% unelected. Any personal attacks or slurs are the result of tit-for-tat quips, insults and similar remarks. None of it necessary, I'd agree. But be honest, you can't really be suggesting that the EU and staunch Europhiles are not guilty of very similar defamation..? I could bring up links to a host of videos of Hr. Schultz, Sgnr. Barroso or Mssr. Juncker making very similar derogatory comments too.

 

When a criticism is based in fact I take far less issue with it. Phrasing such criticisms maturely, aka in the least provocative way as possible, is perhaps something that both sides could do a bit better. The amount of vitriol in all of these proceedings has marred it from the off. Again I'd place the blame far more at the Remainers door, and I could literally bombard you with YT clips and slanderous articles proving it, if I were so inclined. ???? 

 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, vogie said:

Why don't we compare leaders oli. It seems to me you have lost the moral high ground.

Junker seems rather friendly after he has dropped in to a barrel of wine. It's also good to notice how EU country leaders are helping him during his difficult times. That's what EU is about. Life and support for us others. ???? 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

The key difference here too is the fact that comparisons between the USSR and EU are totally valid and the people who run the show within the EU are 100% unelected.

And here we go again.. 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

4 minutes ago, oilinki said:

And here we go again.. 

Yup!

 

The truth will out. Even if you'd rather it didn't.

 

This thread is (or at least should be) about debate surely? Rather than roll your eyes, how about actually providing me with some evidence to the contrary of what I and other informed posters have been stating?

 

I've seen precious little from you or anyone else from the other side. Just hot air.

Edited October 6, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[billd766]

I found this on another website about travel between the UK, Eire and the EU.

 

How accurate it is I have no idea but it seems to be sponsored and run by the Eire government.

 

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_abroad/freedom_of_movement_within_the_eu/common_travel_area_between_ireland_and_the_uk.html

 

Brexit

The UK’s withdrawal from the European Union (EU) will not affect the rights of Irish citizens and UK citizens within the Common Travel Area. The right to live, work and access public services in the Common Travel Area will be protected, regardless of the outcome of the Brexit negotiations.

 

You can read more about the UK leaving the EU in our Guide to Brexit.

 

http://www.citizensinformationboard.ie/en/

 

 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Yup!

 

The truth will out. Even if you'd rather it didn't.

 

This thread is (or at least should be) about debate surely? Rather than roll your eyes, how about actually providing me with some evidence to the contrary of what I and other informed posters have been stating?

 

I've seen precious little from you or anyone else from the other side. Just hot air.

The Truth really seems to be out in the wild now. I can not be the only one, seeing Brexit UK more and more like Trump's USA. 

 

Unfortunately arrogant and utterly impolite. I'm afraid the discussion will become even nastier as the time goes by. That's one of the reasons I wish that there will be a clear cut Brexit as soon as possible. No 2nd referendum, no time extension and no transfer period. Simply a clear cut out.

 

Related to what James Hunt said, this is one of your, UK's newspaper. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/conservative-party-conference-2018-jeremy-hunt-eu-soviet-union-ussr-comparison-brexit-europe-a8563816.html

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

14 minutes ago, oilinki said:

The Truth really seems to be out in the wild now. I can not be the only one, seeing Brexit UK more and more like Trump's USA. 

 

Unfortunately arrogant and utterly impolite. I'm afraid the discussion will become even nastier as the time goes by. That's one of the reasons I wish that there will be a clear cut Brexit as soon as possible. No 2nd referendum, no time extension and no transfer period. Simply a clear cut out.

 

Related to what James Hunt said, this is one of your, UK's newspaper. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/conservative-party-conference-2018-jeremy-hunt-eu-soviet-union-ussr-comparison-brexit-europe-a8563816.html

Yeh, there isn't a lot of sense coming out of the Independent anymore, clearly. ????

 

Plenty of people in the UK and around Europe will feel the same way as the reporter and you do, that's their prerogative and that's fine.  However, plenty also disagree with you, and that's fine too.

 

I know my history (especially of Europe) well enough to know that the comparisons are totally valid...

 

I can only hope the debate doesn't descend into further ad hominem, emotionally driven attacks. But as I have already said, that has definitely been the preserve of the Remain side including much of the MSM, who's coverage of Brexit, in particular the interviews of the key figures spearheading it, has been so utterly biased from the beginning that it's cringe-worthy and almost too hard to watch at times.

Edited October 6, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[welovesundaysatspace]

40 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

how about actually providing me with some evidence to the contrary of what I and other informed posters have been stating?

When you accuse someone of something, it's up to you to provide evidence for your accusations. What if someone asked you to providing some evidence that you're not a kiddy fiddler? 

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

 

I can only hope the debate doesn't descend into further ad hominem, emotionally driven attacks. But as I have already said, that has definitely been the preserve of the Remain side including much of the MSM, who's coverage of Brexit, in particular the interviews of the key figures spearheading it, has been so utterly biased from the beginning that it's cringe-worthy and almost too hard to watch at times.

I can't talk for remainers, but my observation has been that they have been really terrified where UK is heading towards. When people are afraid, people react to it in different ways. Some go in to their cocoons, some fight back as much as they can to protect what they see as home and value a lot. 

 

What I have seen in UK mainstream media, has been heavily biased towards UK's point of view. The rest of the EU citizens thinks quite differently about EU than what average UK person thinks.

[JAG]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

Why don't we compare leaders oli. It seems to me you have lost the moral high ground.

 

 

It's the very devil isn't it - all those glasses of sciatica medicine!

 

Still never mind, as the Guardian reported today, if he gets his way it will never be mentioned again - apparently suggesting that the EU's leader is a pisshead infringes his human rights!

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, oilinki said:

Junker seems rather friendly after he has dropped in to a barrel of wine. It's also good to notice how EU country leaders are helping him during his difficult times. That's what EU is about. Life and support for us others. ???? 

yeah,

a bit like your fellow countryman Tankero

 

probably the man, together with Kekkonen, that laid the foundation for making it at all possible for Finland

to move towards EU, when the time came (after USSR breakdown)

 

Edited October 6, 2018 by melvinmelvin

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, JAG said:

It's the very devil isn't it - all those glasses of sciatica medicine!

 

Still never mind, as the Guardian reported today, if he gets his way it will never be mentioned again - apparently suggesting that the EU's leader is a pisshead infringes his human rights!

Freedom of the press is here to stay, like it should be. 

 

I guess many continental Europeans were surprised how uncivilised UK's press and it's audience behaved during these couple of years of separation talks. UK audience might be accustomed to it, but I think it's not the case in most of the European countries. 

 

I'd say let the page three girls back on newspapers, to let UK folks to feel a bit of love again, instead of this frustrated anger we see today. ????