UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[My Thai Life]

8 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

I never claimed the WTO does. How countries protect their borders doesn’t have anything to do with the WTO anyway. 

Yes, you never said that yourself. But WTO rules are only reason that has ever been given by anyone for needing a hard border. They are wrong; I have posted on this several times already.

 

The discussion among politicians has been about trade, and the implications of trade on borders, and the implications of borders on security. The logic has been: WTO (or anything that isn't CU, including Canada +++) = hard border = resurgent violence. WTO/Canada +++ does not need a hard border.

 

This is May's remainer fallacy being used as a justification for staying in the CU.

[Bluespunk]

25 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

nice word salad - what are these massive opportunities then name one ....

What on earth are you on about?

[beautifulthailand99]

am in the Canary Isles at the moment enjoying the WOMAD world music festival - great European vibe only drawback is the denuded currency that Brexiteers have forced upon us.  Their wet dream Hard Brexit would make us even poorer. One good thing to come out of this is I spend as little time in Thailand now as I can - missus does the family business as and when and we holiday at home or in Europe. The currency crash has played a large part in that - glad to see the rest of this wonderful world . Feel sorry for those Brits trapped within it's borders on fixed incomes with little hope to live back home. But not sorry for those willing on it's destruction - they are getting their just desserts. But not yet humble pie .....

[AlexRich]

2 minutes ago, vogie said:

Another post with no substance, conjecture is all that remainers have. 

 

Did you eventually come up with the links that was asked of you yesterday?

 

Take a look at the twitter feed of Alistair Burt MP, Conservative. He sent a warning to his fellow Tory, an ERG member, that remain supporting MPs could decide to work together to force a second referendum through parliament. They have the numbers, and faced with a "no deal" exit that is very likely to happen. You not liking that means nothing. 

[beautifulthailand99]

2 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

What on earth are you on about?

sorry caught a post from about 500 pages ago by mistake where you posited massive opportunities would result from leaving. I think we all know that now to be untrue - even JRM said it could take 50 years to realize the benefits from the dreamer's leave scenario. 

[AlexRich]

7 minutes ago, oilinki said:

It's actually quite hilarious how afraid the brexiteers are about the people's vote. ????

 

They put on a front, a brave face, but they are absolutely terrified of that prospect. If the Tory party cannot get a deal through parliament (even an amended one, or a new one) then we are on for a second vote. They will lose. If they can get a deal through then Brexit will happen.

[vogie]

4 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

Take a look at the twitter feed of Alistair Burt MP, Conservative. He sent a warning to his fellow Tory, an ERG member, that remain supporting MPs could decide to work together to force a second referendum through parliament. They have the numbers, and faced with a "no deal" exit that is very likely to happen. You not liking that means nothing. 

No link then?????

[vinny41]

10 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

The second vote will be interesting for you.  Brexiteers snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

It will be interesting try to sell Remain on a No rebate, No opt outs, Adopt the Euro, EU Army,  Accept anything that the EU says

The remain camp have shown their cards to the EU  

[mogandave]

Proven? Explain 
 
Even the PM says no brexit is an option
 
Brexit is looking more and more foolish; Brexiters are a busted flush

Proof indeed.

Still waiting...

[beautifulthailand99]

8 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

It will be interesting try to sell Remain on a No rebate, No opt outs, Adopt the Euro, EU Army,  Accept anything that the EU says

The remain camp have shown their cards to the EU  

You might be the Greg in Bangkok on this call that deals with this EU army....

 

 

Edited November 18, 2018 by beautifulthailand99

[My Thai Life]

9 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

You are completely wrong about "no brexit", I'm afraid May actually told the truth on that one. The Tory MP Alistair Burt sent a twitter comment to a member of the ERG group warning him that Remainer MPs in parliament will back away from their agreement to go along with Brexit if faced with a "no deal" scenario. He is right. If they decide to work together then a second referendum will be voted through. The danger for the ERG is that if they try to force "no deal" through parliament they will end up with "no brexit". My prediction is that if a deal is not agreed with the EU (May's or some other) there will be a second vote.

The thing that's most likely to be "completely wrong" is your assertion that there will be a 2nd referendum. May and Corbyn have consistenly stated that there will not be a 2nd vote. The Tory and Labour manifestos have committed both parties to honouring the referendum result.

 

Nevertheless, Alistair Burt, a committed remainer, is entitled to his opinion, and you are entitled to believe it. Have a good evening.

[AlexRich]

3 minutes ago, vogie said:

No link then?????

 

[vinny41]

5 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

You might be the Greg in Bangkok on this cal that deals with this EU army....

 

 

 

Merkel: The vision to create a real European army // The future of Europe speech

https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/video/merkel-the-vision-to-create-a-real-european-army-the-future-of-europe-speech/

[Bluespunk]

16 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

sorry caught a post from about 500 pages ago by mistake where you posited massive opportunities would result from leaving. I think we all know that now to be untrue - even JRM said it could take 50 years to realize the benefits from the dreamer's leave scenario. 

I don't know who you think you were quoting, but it wasn't me.

 

My views on brexit are such that there is no way I would spout such nonsense. 

[damascase]

1 hour ago, BwindiBoy said:

Who cares what a former nobody thinks?!  They're irrelevant!

Actually, you don’t seem to care about - or to be interested in - any opinion that isn’t the same as yours..........

Edited November 18, 2018 by damascase

[AlexRich]

2 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

The thing that's most likely to be "completely wrong" is your assertion that there will be a 2nd referendum. May and Corbyn have consistenly stated that there will not be a 2nd vote. The Tory and Labour manifestos have committed both parties to honouring the referendum result.

 

Nevertheless, Alistair Burt, a committed remainer, is entitled to his opinion, and you are entitled to believe it. Have a good evening.

 

Sorry, did I hurt your feelings? I'm only acquainting you with something that is possible, that can be done. There will be a second referendum if the only other option is "no deal". What Alistair Burt is explaining to the ERG is that there is a much more powerful body of MPs that will act if that situation arises ... and bear in mind that Corbyn's Momentum supporters want Labour to put a second referendum on the table ... he will not be able to stop it. McDonnell has also reiterated in the last few days that a second referendum is possible. I understand that you don't like that, but if you are telling people on here that this is impossible then you are misleading them.

 

[AlexRich]

16 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

It will be interesting try to sell Remain on a No rebate, No opt outs, Adopt the Euro, EU Army,  Accept anything that the EU says

The remain camp have shown their cards to the EU  

 

It would simply be a reversal of Article 50 ... we haven't left yet, so we don't have to rejoin.

[Wanderlust]

Here is what the former Australian PM, Tony Abbot, thinks (as a kind of reply to the Finnish politician earlier):

 

"It’s pretty hard for Britain’s friends, here in Australia, to make sense of the mess that’s being made of Brexit. The referendum result was perhaps the biggest-ever vote of confidence in the United Kingdom, its past and its future. But the British establishment doesn’t seem to share that confidence and instead looks desperate to cut a deal, even if that means staying under the rule of Brussels. Looking at this from abroad, it’s baffling: the country that did the most to bring democracy into the modern world might yet throw away the chance to take charge of its own destiny.

Let’s get one thing straight: a negotiation that you’re not prepared to walk away from is not a negotiation — it’s surrender. It’s all give and no get. When David Cameron tried to renegotiate Britain’s EU membership, he was sent packing because Brussels judged (rightly) that he’d never actually back leaving. And since then, Brussels has made no real concessions to Theresa May because it judges (rightly, it seems) that she’s desperate for whatever deal she can get.

The EU’s palpable desire to punish Britain for leaving vindicates the Brexit project. Its position, now, is that there’s only one ‘deal’ on offer, whereby the UK retains all of the burdens of EU membership but with no say in setting the rules. The EU seems to think that Britain will go along with this because it’s terrified of no deal. Or, to put it another way, terrified of the prospect of its own independence.

But even after two years of fearmongering and vacillation, it’s not too late for robust leadership to deliver the Brexit that people voted for. It’s time for Britain to announce what it will do if the EU can’t make an acceptable offer by March 29 next year — and how it would handle no deal. Freed from EU rules, Britain would automatically revert to world trade, using rules agreed by the World Trade Organization. It works pretty well for Australia. So why on earth would it not work just as well for the world’s fifth-largest economy?

A world trade Brexit lets Britain set its own rules. It can say, right now, that it will not impose any tariff or quota on European produce and would recognise all EU product standards. That means no border controls for goods coming from Europe to Britain. You don’t need to negotiate this: just do it. If Europe knows what’s in its own best interests, it would fully reciprocate in order to maintain entirely free trade and full mutual recognition of standards right across Europe.

Next, the UK should declare that Europeans already living here should have the right to remain permanently — and, of course, become British citizens if they wish. This should be a unilateral offer. Again, you don’t need a deal. You don’t need Michel Barnier’s permission. If Europe knows what’s best for itself, it would likewise allow Britons to stay where they are.

Third, there should continue to be free movement of people from Europe into Britain — but with a few conditions. Only for work, not welfare. And with a foreign worker’s tax on the employer, to make sure anyone coming in would not be displacing British workers.

Fourth, no ‘divorce bill’ whatsoever should be paid to Brussels. The UK government would assume the EU’s property and liabilities in Britain, and the EU would assume Britain’s share of these in Europe. If Britain was getting its fair share, these would balance out; and if Britain wasn’t getting its fair share, it’s the EU that should be paying Britain.

Finally, there’s no need on Britain’s part for a hard border with Ireland. Britain wouldn’t be imposing tariffs on European goods, so there’s no money to collect. The UK has exactly the same product standards as the Republic, so let’s not pretend you need to check for problems we all know don’t exist. Some changes may be needed but technology allows for smart borders: there was never any need for a Cold War-style Checkpoint Charlie. Irish citizens, of course, have the right to live and work in the UK in an agreement that long predates EU membership.

Of course, the EU might not like this British leap for independence. It might hit out with tariffs and impose burdens on Britain as it does on the US — but WTO rules put a cap on any retaliatory action. The worst it can get? We’re talking levies of an average 4 or 5 per cent. Which would be more than offset by a post-Brexit devaluation of the pound (which would have the added bonus of making British goods more competitive everywhere).

UK officialdom assumes that a deal is vital, which is why so little thought has been put into how Britain might just walk away. Instead, officials have concocted lurid scenarios featuring runs on the pound, gridlock at ports, grounded aircraft, hoarding of medicines and flights of investment. It’s been the pre-referendum Project Fear campaign on steroids. And let’s not forget how employment, investment and economic growth ticked up after the referendum.

As a former prime minister of Australia and a lifelong friend of your country, I would say this: Britain has nothing to lose except the shackles that the EU imposes on it. After the courage shown by its citizens in the referendum, it would be a tragedy if political leaders go wobbly now. Britain’s future has always been global, rather than just with Europe. Like so many of Britain’s admirers, I want to see this great country seize this chance and make the most of it."

Tony Abbott served as Prime Minister of Australia from 2013 to 2015

[damascase]

1 minute ago, Wanderlust said:

Here is what the former Australian PM, Tony Abbot, thinks (as a kind of reply to the Finnish politician earlier):

 

"It’s pretty hard for Britain’s friends, here in Australia, to make sense of the mess that’s being made of Brexit. The referendum result was perhaps the biggest-ever vote of confidence in the United Kingdom, its past and its future. But the British establishment doesn’t seem to share that confidence and instead looks desperate to cut a deal, even if that means staying under the rule of Brussels. Looking at this from abroad, it’s baffling: the country that did the most to bring democracy into the modern world might yet throw away the chance to take charge of its own destiny.

Let’s get one thing straight: a negotiation that you’re not prepared to walk away from is not a negotiation — it’s surrender. It’s all give and no get. When David Cameron tried to renegotiate Britain’s EU membership, he was sent packing because Brussels judged (rightly) that he’d never actually back leaving. And since then, Brussels has made no real concessions to Theresa May because it judges (rightly, it seems) that she’s desperate for whatever deal she can get.

The EU’s palpable desire to punish Britain for leaving vindicates the Brexit project. Its position, now, is that there’s only one ‘deal’ on offer, whereby the UK retains all of the burdens of EU membership but with no say in setting the rules. The EU seems to think that Britain will go along with this because it’s terrified of no deal. Or, to put it another way, terrified of the prospect of its own independence.

But even after two years of fearmongering and vacillation, it’s not too late for robust leadership to deliver the Brexit that people voted for. It’s time for Britain to announce what it will do if the EU can’t make an acceptable offer by March 29 next year — and how it would handle no deal. Freed from EU rules, Britain would automatically revert to world trade, using rules agreed by the World Trade Organization. It works pretty well for Australia. So why on earth would it not work just as well for the world’s fifth-largest economy?

A world trade Brexit lets Britain set its own rules. It can say, right now, that it will not impose any tariff or quota on European produce and would recognise all EU product standards. That means no border controls for goods coming from Europe to Britain. You don’t need to negotiate this: just do it. If Europe knows what’s in its own best interests, it would fully reciprocate in order to maintain entirely free trade and full mutual recognition of standards right across Europe.

Next, the UK should declare that Europeans already living here should have the right to remain permanently — and, of course, become British citizens if they wish. This should be a unilateral offer. Again, you don’t need a deal. You don’t need Michel Barnier’s permission. If Europe knows what’s best for itself, it would likewise allow Britons to stay where they are.

Third, there should continue to be free movement of people from Europe into Britain — but with a few conditions. Only for work, not welfare. And with a foreign worker’s tax on the employer, to make sure anyone coming in would not be displacing British workers.

Fourth, no ‘divorce bill’ whatsoever should be paid to Brussels. The UK government would assume the EU’s property and liabilities in Britain, and the EU would assume Britain’s share of these in Europe. If Britain was getting its fair share, these would balance out; and if Britain wasn’t getting its fair share, it’s the EU that should be paying Britain.

Finally, there’s no need on Britain’s part for a hard border with Ireland. Britain wouldn’t be imposing tariffs on European goods, so there’s no money to collect. The UK has exactly the same product standards as the Republic, so let’s not pretend you need to check for problems we all know don’t exist. Some changes may be needed but technology allows for smart borders: there was never any need for a Cold War-style Checkpoint Charlie. Irish citizens, of course, have the right to live and work in the UK in an agreement that long predates EU membership.

Of course, the EU might not like this British leap for independence. It might hit out with tariffs and impose burdens on Britain as it does on the US — but WTO rules put a cap on any retaliatory action. The worst it can get? We’re talking levies of an average 4 or 5 per cent. Which would be more than offset by a post-Brexit devaluation of the pound (which would have the added bonus of making British goods more competitive everywhere).

UK officialdom assumes that a deal is vital, which is why so little thought has been put into how Britain might just walk away. Instead, officials have concocted lurid scenarios featuring runs on the pound, gridlock at ports, grounded aircraft, hoarding of medicines and flights of investment. It’s been the pre-referendum Project Fear campaign on steroids. And let’s not forget how employment, investment and economic growth ticked up after the referendum.

As a former prime minister of Australia and a lifelong friend of your country, I would say this: Britain has nothing to lose except the shackles that the EU imposes on it. After the courage shown by its citizens in the referendum, it would be a tragedy if political leaders go wobbly now. Britain’s future has always been global, rather than just with Europe. Like so many of Britain’s admirers, I want to see this great country seize this chance and make the most of it."

Tony Abbott served as Prime Minister of Australia from 2013 to 2015

This has been posted before - the guy hasn’t a clue about how the EU works and doesn’t seem to know much about trade and tariffs. Quite unlike that former Finnish politician.

[vogie]

17 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

I'll pass on a twitter remark if that's ok.

[Wanderlust]

3 minutes ago, damascase said:

This has been posted before - the guy hasn’t a clue about how the EU works and doesn’t seem to know much about trade and tariffs. Quite unlike that former Finnish politician.

Apologies for the post, I haven’t read the entire thread. What specifically do you think he doesn’t know about trade and tariffs that is relevant to the UK just walking out as he suggests?

[AlexRich]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

I'll pass on a twitter remark if that's ok.

 

You asked for a link. I already told you it was a twitter comment. This guy is a Tory MP. He's making a statement of the obvious ... and he's backing up May's comment that "no Brexit" is a distinct possibility.

 

So just bury your head in the sand if that makes you feel better. 

[beautifulthailand99]

19 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

I don't know who you think you were quoting, but it wasn't me.

 

My views on brexit are such that there is no way I would spout such nonsense. 

apologies , was out late last night and the hotel wi-fi leads to complications. Loving the EU roaming by the way - calls cost the same in every EU country so can call back to the UK for the same price as a UK call. So along with a rinsed pound higher EU call charges - Brexit the gift that keeps on not giving. 

[AlexRich]

9 minutes ago, damascase said:

This has been posted before - the guy hasn’t a clue about how the EU works and doesn’t seem to know much about trade and tariffs. Quite unlike that former Finnish politician.

 

Tony Abbot was a disaster as Australian prime minister ... and the Finnish guy is a very impressive politician.

[vogie]

1 minute ago, AlexRich said:

 

You asked for a link. I already told you it was a twitter comment. This guy is a Tory MP. He's making a statement of the obvious ... and he's backing up May's comment that "no Brexit" is a distinct possibility.

 

So just bury your head in the sand if that makes you feel better. 

The original post stated that the four MPs are acting in the way they are doing to cheat the British Public, that is a libellous and fallacious remark, do you honestly think your tweet addresses this?

[AlexRich]

3 minutes ago, vogie said:

The original post stated that the four MPs are acting in the way they are doing to cheat the British Public, that is a libellous and fallacious remark, do you honestly think your tweet addresses this?

 

That is not what you asked for. You were referring to the Alistair Burt comment, and complaining I had no link ... even though I told you where to find it.

 

As for the 4 MPs, I already answered that ... go back and find it. 

[Wanderlust]

 
Tony Abbot was a disaster as Australian prime minister ... and the Finnish guy is a very impressive politician.

That doesn’t mean that everything either one says is automatically wrong or right though does it? I am more interested in the content of what was said and debating it than the careers of who said it.


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[mogandave]

Ever notice how people never seem to be able to explain what they claim is obvious?

[My Thai Life]

39 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

Sorry, did I hurt your feelings? I'm only acquainting you with something that is possible, that can be done. There will be a second referendum if the only other option is "no deal". What Alistair Burt is explaining to the ERG is that there is a much more powerful body of MPs that will act if that situation arises ... and bear in mind that Corbyn's Momentum supporters want Labour to put a second referendum on the table ... he will not be able to stop it. McDonnell has also reiterated in the last few days that a second referendum is possible. I understand that you don't like that, but if you are telling people on here that this is impossible then you are misleading them.

Burt's position is well known - nothing new about it. You as a remainer will undoubtedy take his position. 

 

At the moment Corbyn is the leader of the Labour party, not McDonnell or Momentum. He has repeatedly said there will not be a 2nd referendum, as has May. Last week he also ruled out revoking A50, again, as I posted here. By the way, McDonnell and Momentum have been singing the same song for a long time, not just for the last few days. Official Labour and Tory policy is no second referendum, and honouring the referendum result. And it's worth pointing out that Labour are not the governing party, and Tories will never ally with Labour in meaningful numbers over this.

 

By the way, I am not a leaver or a remainer. I'm just someone who supports democracy. We had a referendum, the terms of which were accepted by everyone.

 

I read a broad cross-section of the Brexit press, representing all major viewpoints, and I post many links here from reliable sources. My posts are ovewhelmingly aimed at providing information, not speculation. Have a good evening.

Edited November 18, 2018 by My Thai Life

[vinny41]

41 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

It would simply be a reversal of Article 50 ... we haven't left yet, so we don't have to rejoin.

According to the EU the Uk will lose it rebate

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/uk-cant-keep-rebate-abandons-brexit-says-eu-budget-chief-111555550.html