German far-right protesters clash with leftists after Chemnitz stabbing

[manarak]

Interesting thread.

 

I don't really want to get into a debate about nazism and racism.

 

What should have been self-evident to Merkel and others from the very beginning is that many people wouldn't make celebrations of joy regarding the influx of immigrants.

 

this was further worsened by the AfD's slide to the right, the party being taken over by the brown shirts, while the CDU lost its bearing under Merkel to become some sort of centrist party and lost its "right" flavor.

 

somehow in today's Germany, if one opposes mass immigration and supports law & order, not only there is no proper political party to represent him in parliament, but he is also called a nazi (or a "hard right") if he expresses his views.

 

16 minutes ago, simple1 said:

professionals who clearly state hard right divisive social media does not assist against Islamist extremism, criminality and so on

sorry, but "divisive" content is not the far right's exclusivity.

hard leftists contribute at least as much if not more divisive content. you probably don't recognize it as divisive.

anyway, it's called free speech and comes from all sides of the political landscape.

 

[simple1]

1 hour ago, manarak said:

Interesting thread.

 

I don't really want to get into a debate about nazism and racism.

 

What should have been self-evident to Merkel and others from the very beginning is that many people wouldn't make celebrations of joy regarding the influx of immigrants.

 

this was further worsened by the AfD's slide to the right, the party being taken over by the brown shirts, while the CDU lost its bearing under Merkel to become some sort of centrist party and lost its "right" flavor.

 

somehow in today's Germany, if one opposes mass immigration and supports law & order, not only there is no proper political party to represent him in parliament, but he is also called a nazi (or a "hard right") if he expresses his views.

 

sorry, but "divisive" content is not the far right's exclusivity.

hard leftists contribute at least as much if not more divisive content. you probably don't recognize it as divisive.

anyway, it's called free speech and comes from all sides of the political landscape.

 

So far I haven't observed hard left propaganda on this forum. IMO Free Speech does not translate to the right for Hate Speech.

[manarak]

39 minutes ago, simple1 said:

So far I haven't observed hard left propaganda on this forum. IMO Free Speech does not translate to the right for Hate Speech.

I don't support hate speech either.

 

About leftist divisive content it seems I am right - you don't recognize it as such.

It's easy to find though - look in any thread where the subject are rich people or money.

[Chomper Higgot]

3 minutes ago, manarak said:

I don't support hate speech either.

 

About leftist divisive content it seems I am right - you don't recognize it as such.

It's easy to find though - look in any thread where the subject are rich people or money.

You claim it exists, provide examples.

 

You claim it is easy to find, you should have no problem providing those examples.

[simple1]

1 hour ago, manarak said:

I don't support hate speech either.

 

About leftist divisive content it seems I am right - you don't recognize it as such.

It's easy to find though - look in any thread where the subject are rich people or money.

I was talking to matters related to the OP, asylum seekers / refugees, not matters related to wealth distribution in our societies.

[manarak]

44 minutes ago, simple1 said:

I was talking to matters related to the OP, asylum seekers / refugees, not matters related to wealth distribution in our societies.

well, every political crowd has its favorite topics!

 

I can't imagine overly divisive leftist posts about refugees, in this regard it's difficult to be more leftist than what the government did, i.e. letting everyone in and giving them welfare from taxpayer's money.

 

So there is no point for leftists to make divisive statements about this topic - but this isn't a reason to pretend letists don't make divisive statements about other topics.

 

as you kindly provided a wikipedia link about far-right populism, you can find a few popular far-left topics here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_populism

Edited August 30, 2018 by manarak

[welovesundaysatspace]

1 hour ago, manarak said:

the government did, i.e. letting everyone in

Another lie to create hatred. It is not true the government let or let’s everyone in. 

 

Quote

and giving them welfare from taxpayer's money.

So what? Are these neo-nazis also beating up moms because they’re paying for their playgrounds and parental allowance (even if they don’t enjoy the same)? Are they beating up car drivers because they’re paying for their streets (even if they don’t have cars themselves)? Are they beating up Saxonians and other East Germans because they’re paying taxes for them, or all the unemployed because they’re paying their unemployment benefits?

 

One purpose of a tax system is always to redistribute wealth and take some from the rich to give it to the poor. Now please tell me why people fleeing from war and terror should have less access to that welfare system than a German mom or an unemployed neo-nazi? Why do German refugees from the former DDR still enjoy extra support from the taxpayer after 30 years (that was almost 18 billion Euro from the taxpayer in 2017) but a refugee from an African country is declared a problem to the welfare system?

 

If I’m not mistaken, Germany had a budget surplus of almost 50 billion EUR. At the same time Germany should know a tiny bit about wars and refugees. Yet people are trying to argue that providing shelter and support to refugees is somehow wrong? 

 

Argueing that people because of their race are a bigger problem to the taxpayer or should have less access to the welfare system is racism. 

Edited August 30, 2018 by welovesundaysatspace

[micmichd]

3 hours ago, manarak said:

I don't support hate speech either.

 

About leftist divisive content it seems I am right - you don't recognize it as such.

It's easy to find though - look in any thread where the subject are rich people or money.

You can look at Facebook, they have both sides on forums like SPIEGEL ONLINE. But you have to be able to read German. 

Both sides - the left and the right - come together under the label of "anti-capitalism", which for them means "expropriate the ones that take money out of the country" 

Germany expats in Thailand might be their next target, so better beware.

[Rigby40]

14 hours ago, ELVIS123456 said:

 Fail.  F-  

Try again - instead of abusing myself and stating that what I wrote is wrong, try something different.

 

Try writing down clearly (articulate) the reasons and the rationale behind your opinions. 

Give me (and everyone) everyone some logical reasons for your viewpoint.

 

The reason you did not do that is provided in my previous response to you - irrational liberal emotions dominate your thinking. 

Have a close read and see that I have not 'demanded' that you agree with me/conservatives. 

I have merely asked you to think for yourself and to articulate those thoughts and reasons, in order to defend your opinions.

I say again it again -  think for yourself and #walkaway from the liberal 'mantra' you follow - walk your own path.

 

That sort of thing is very common.

We've all seen at this point, probably hundreds upon hundreds of rally/event videos where conservatives/alt-media go out and ask simple questions about liberal beliefs but most of them shutdown, scream or walk off when you try to scratch past the surface of their chants, buzzwords and slogans. You're so right, it's pure emotion.

 

Regarding the topic I'm surprised Germany still has some backbone left in it. Poland, Hungary, Germany stronk!

[welovesundaysatspace]

10 minutes ago, Wallander4 said:

Go back pls ...

Im not surprised that’s all you can produce. You’d be the first right wing person who can offer more than lies, fearmongering and hatred. 

[welovesundaysatspace]

8 minutes ago, Rigby40 said:

 

Seriously, can't you do any better than this? smh

You can search for more on YouTube. They’re pretty good at making a fool out of themselves and showing the world. Classic also when actually being asked serious questions or to explain their opinion. Their lack of arguments and the obvious low level of education is hilarious. 

 

 

[micmichd]

5 hours ago, simple1 said:

So far I haven't observed hard left propaganda on this forum. IMO Free Speech does not translate to the right for Hate Speech.

No use to ban Hate Speech from social media imo. Ban them and they go clandestine. The anthropological instinct of defending a territory against "invaders" is deeply rooted and even determines your way of perception  - and the German far-right know it. 

There's only one way to avoid the ultimate clash (and mutual killing): Make them get used to a multicultural and multiracial society. Force them to accept that universal human rights are universal - or... 

[Chomper Higgot]

The rightwing argument regarding Merkel decision to allow in the refugees on Europe’s and Germany’s borders skips a couple of issues:

 

What caused these people to arrive at Europe’s borders and particularly did any other nation/government act in order to force the refugees towards Europe/Germany?

 

What were the alternatives to letting the refugees and the likely outcome of those alternatives?

[Scott]

Abusive post removed and posts with videos in a foreign language have been removed along with replies.  

 

[candide]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The rightwing argument regarding Merkel decision to allow in the refugees on Europe’s and Germany’s borders skips a couple of issues:

 

What caused these people to arrive at Europe’s borders and particularly did any other nation/government act in order to force the refugees towards Europe/Germany?

 

What were the alternatives to letting the refugees and the likely outcome of those alternatives?

Don't expect an answer to these questions from emotional right-wingers who pretend to be rational.

 

Another issue is that the decision by Germany to welcome refugees is not only driven by compassion. Germany has an insufficient birthrate and low unemployment rate. It simply needs immigration to maintain its position. And the war refugees often present the advantage of being skilled and educated, unlike the usual economic immigration that usually includes a large share of poor uneducated people.

[blazes]

37 minutes ago, candide said:

Don't expect an answer to these questions from emotional right-wingers who pretend to be rational.

 

Another issue is that the decision by Germany to welcome refugees is not only driven by compassion. Germany has an insufficient birthrate and low unemployment rate. It simply needs immigration to maintain its position. And the war refugees often present the advantage of being skilled and educated, unlike the usual economic immigration that usually includes a large share of poor uneducated people.

Truly bewildering.  Where do you get the idea that the "war refugees" are better "skilled and educated" than the economic migrants??  You have Federal German govt statistics to prove this (surely ludicrous) point?

 

Rhetorical question, so no use answering.  Besides, the impending massive march of robots through the German factories will render totally needless all those "skilled and educated" refugees.

[metisdead]

Off topic posts have been removed. 

Edited August 30, 2018 by metisdead

[simple1]

5 hours ago, manarak said:

well, every political crowd has its favorite topics!

 

I can't imagine overly divisive leftist posts about refugees, in this regard it's difficult to be more leftist than what the government did, i.e. letting everyone in and giving them welfare from taxpayer's money.

 

So there is no point for leftists to make divisive statements about this topic - but this isn't a reason to pretend letists don't make divisive statements about other topics.

 

as you kindly provided a wikipedia link about far-right populism, you can find a few popular far-left topics here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_populism

thanks for the link. 

[candide]

24 minutes ago, blazes said:

Truly bewildering.  Where do you get the idea that the "war refugees" are better "skilled and educated" than the economic migrants??  You have Federal German govt statistics to prove this (surely ludicrous) point?

 

Rhetorical question, so no use answering.  Besides, the impending massive march of robots through the German factories will render totally needless all those "skilled and educated" refugees.

So in the same reply you criticize rethorical arguments and make yourself a purely rethorical statement. Lol.

A few facts:

- First, it depends on the country of origin:

"According to estimates by the German Agency for Labor from early 2016, less than half of the current refugees from Afghanistan, for instance, had more than elementary education, 27 percent did not have any form of formal schooling at all......Refugees from Syria are, by comparison, much better educated. More than 50 percent of Syrian refugees had at least secondary schooling, and 27 percent had some form of tertiary education, if not necessarily a degree."

- On average the level of education is not bad:

"In general, about one fifth of all current refugees from the top sending countries are estimated to have attended a higher education institution, and approximately two thirds have attended secondary school"

https://wenr.wes.org/2017/05/lessons-germanys-refugee-crisis-integration-costs-benefits

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 30, 2018 by candide

[welovesundaysatspace]

23 minutes ago, blazes said:

 the impending massive march of robots through the German factories will render totally needless all those "skilled and educated" refugees.

Because all refugees are factory workers that can be replaced with robots? Shows that you don’t have a clue. 

[dick dasterdly]

3 hours ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

You can search for more on YouTube. They’re pretty good at making a fool out of themselves and showing the world. Classic also when actually being asked serious questions or to explain their opinion. Their lack of arguments and the obvious low level of education is hilarious. 

 

 

I agree that interviewing individuals/groups on both sides of any protest always reveals far too many that are there because they believe in 'the cause' ☹️.

 

I'd add, that the young amongst them (frequently at college, making them mistakenly believe they are intelligent and knowledgeable....) are by far the worst offenders in this respect....

[simple1]

4 hours ago, Rigby40 said:

Regarding the topic I'm surprised Germany still has some backbone left in it. Poland, Hungary, Germany stronk!

Some posters applaud Poland & Hungary in comparison to Germany, both of which have right of centre governments who have already commenced down down the path of authoritarianism and suppression of Freedom of Speech. In the case of Hungary you can include extensive corruption under Orban. Yeah wonderful governments...

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

29 minutes ago, blazes said:

Truly bewildering.  Where do you get the idea that the "war refugees" are better "skilled and educated" than the economic migrants??  You have Federal German govt statistics to prove this (surely ludicrous) point?

 

Rhetorical question, so no use answering.  Besides, the impending massive march of robots through the German factories will render totally needless all those "skilled and educated" refugees.

The robots are not coming for German manufacturing jobs, German factories are already highly automated.

 

The next technology revolution is Artificial Intelligence, this going to take white collar jobs.

 

The worker supply gap Germany faces is in the service industries and very specifically in care and welfare services.

 

Germany’s aging population needs looking after.

 

Immigrants will fill those jobs.

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I agree that interviewing individuals/groups on both sides of any protest always reveals far too many that are there because they believe in 'the cause' ☹️.

 

I'd add, that the young amongst them (frequently at college, making them mistakenly believe they are intelligent and knowledgeable....) are by far the worst offenders in this respect....

Well nothing worse than believing in a cause, except perhaps being young and getting an education.

[blazes]

7 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The robots are not coming for German manufacturing jobs, German factories are already highly automated.

 

The next technology revolution is Artificial Intelligence, this going to take white collar jobs.

 

The worker supply gap Germany faces is in the service industries and very specifically in care and welfare services.

 

Germany’s aging population needs looking after.

 

Immigrants will fill those jobs.

 

Good, we agree on something at last!  However, I don't share your confidence that service jobs will be sufficient to prop up the welfare state (not only of Germany) in the coming decades.

Ditto for the USA if the Democrats' version of European social democracy were to take hold in a country already close to bankruptcy....

[ELVIS123456]

10 hours ago, simple1 said:

I have given my reasons, you reject them. Why do I push back on those calling the hard right 'patriots' and other nonsense, my complete rejection of hard right ideology.

 

You are Australian, why are you not listening to our national security, plus other Western governments not dominated by hard right populist ideology,  professionals who clearly state hard right divisive social media does not assist against Islamist extremism, criminality and so on.

 

Have you ever thought about why so many on this forum have attempted to excuse the behaviour of

far right demonstrators in the OP, use the language of the far right, keep liking each others all encompassing vilification posts and then deny they are enablers - LOL

You  have  not  given  any  reasons.

 

You have given opinions (and emotional criticisms).

 

There are none so blind .............  but thankfully, and every day, more liberals do get woke and they #walkaway.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, blazes said:

 

Good, we agree on something at last!  However, I don't share your confidence that service jobs will be sufficient to prop up the welfare state (not only of Germany) in the coming decades.

Ditto for the USA if the Democrats' version of European social democracy were to take hold in a country already close to bankruptcy....

To be fair I never claimed service jobs would be sufficient to prop up the welfare state.

 

For that we need taxes.

 

Your arguments regarding Democrat plans for the US need some backup.

 

Perhaps the solidly rightwing Republican Party supporting Koch brothers can help you out:

 

https://thinkprogress.org/mercatis-medicare-for-all-study-0a8681353316/

[dick dasterdly]

3 hours ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

You can search for more on YouTube. They’re pretty good at making a fool out of themselves and showing the world. Classic also when actually being asked serious questions or to explain their opinion. Their lack of arguments and the obvious low level of education is hilarious. 

 

 

 

1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said:

I agree that interviewing individuals/groups on both sides of any protest always reveals far too many that are there because they believe in 'the cause' ☹️.

 

I'd add, that the young amongst them (frequently at college, making them mistakenly believe they are intelligent and knowledgeable....) are by far the worst offenders in this respect....

 

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

Well nothing worse than believing in a cause, except perhaps being young and getting an education.

You're deliberately missing my point - suprise, suprise.....?

 

To repeat - I was pointing out "that the young amongst them" i.e. the protesters are "frequently at college, making them mistakenly believe they are intelligent and knowledgeable.... are by far the worst offenders" for making fools of themselves when asked serious questions to explain their opinion.

 

They know nothing - as they frequently make clear in youtube videos of their 'explanations' as to why they are protesting....

[simple1]

10 minutes ago, ELVIS123456 said:

You  have  not  given  any  reasons.

 

You have given opinions (and emotional criticisms).

 

There are none so blind .............  but thankfully, and every day, more liberals do get woke and they #walkaway.

 

Reasons / opinions whatever, you will reject them anyway so why bother.

 

Again you are using the language of the right of centre, yet constantly deny you're a follower of the ideology??? Isn't #walkaway some far right / alt right propaganda endeavour? No, no he says, I'm not a follower of right wing extremism - LOL

Edited August 30, 2018 by simple1

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

 

You're deliberately missing my point - suprise, suprise.....?

 

To repeat - I was pointing out "that the young amongst them" i.e. the protesters are "frequently at college, making them mistakenly believe they are intelligent and knowledgeable.... are by far the worst offenders" for making fools of themselves when asked serious questions to explain their opinion.

 

They know nothing - as they frequently make clear in youtube videos of their 'explanations' as to why they are protesting....

Your claim that the young people being at college [makes] them mistakenly believe they are intelligent and knowledgeable....

 

Is pure generalised prejudice.

 

Please forgive me calling you out on such utter nonsense.

 

Youtube videos <deleted>.

 

Did it occur to you that those videos are selected for their content and are giving you the view of the person who made the selection?