BREAKING NEWS British Embassy Bangkok to Stop Certification of Income Letters

[Pattaya46]

15 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Do you really believe immigration and the authorities above them want to see a lot of people having to leave because of something they caused?

I am surprised to read that coming from you... You use to be very objective on this forum.

- "a lot of people"? How many? I would think that only a very small number of persons would be unable to find a way to stay here. (Non-O, Non-OA, METV, borrow from friend, agent, etc.)

- "Something TI caused"? The requirement to embassies that the income amount had to be true/real/verified has always been. It seems that TI just confirmed that 6 month ago when asked by one embassy, but TI changed nothing and requested nothing new (at least according to a non-official person from my consulate)

Edited October 29, 2018 by Pattaya46

[Jingthing]

What makes you think they don't?

Do you really believe immigration and the authorities above them want to see a lot of people having to leave because of something they caused?

That's a fair comment but I find it's more rational to avoid attempts at presuming the intentions of Thai immigration policies. Also in this case there is the bank option path so they can fairly assert if you really can afford to live here you would be able to fund and season that account.

 

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

 

[ubonjoe]

2 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

That would mean less work for them if I'm not mistaken and I don't think government workers ever get laid off.

It could really cause more work for them if people changed to tourist visas and then wanted extension of the entries from them every 60 days or so. Or those with a Thai wife or child getting 60 day extension of a 90 day non-o visa entry to visit them.

I was actually writing about the financial impact it could have for many Thais that benefit from those people being here on extension of stay based upon retirement and being married to a Thai or having a Thai children.

[ubonjoe]

9 minutes ago, Spidey said:

I really don't think that would bother them.

That and the other comments in your post is just your opinion and bad attitude about things. That is also evident in other posts you have done.

[Spidey]

Just now, ubonjoe said:

I was actually writing about the financial impact it could have for many Thais that benefit from those people being here on extension of stay based upon retirement and being married to a Thai or having a Thai children.

Which generally are Thais at the bottom of the economic scale. Since when has the ruling elite given a monkeys about them? The upper echelons of TI won't think twice about throwing them under the bus to save face.

[roo860]

Scanners are pretty cheap.  You can get a printer/scanner/copier in the UK for about £23.81

Maybe they have copy shops in the UK where you can bring a document to scan and have it sent to your email address as an attachment?
 
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01J3B3HJW/ref=s9_acsd_top_hd_bw_bT8gpr_c_x_4_w/262-5187344-3685902?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=merchandised-search-3&pf_rd_r=KEGP9XYW73WYB0VDDNXW&pf_rd_r=KEGP9XYW73WYB0VDDNXW&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=7e291132-8a2f-5f39-bb52-6b39777683ec&pf_rd_p=7e291132-8a2f-5f39-bb52-6b39777683ec&pf_rd_i=430585031
 

Your local library will have one, in mine was free to use for 1hr.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[luckyluke]

<removed>

 

I am 70, Belgian, living in Thailand since 2000, with my Thai wife.

My  pension in Belgium is high enough to transfer monthly 2000 Euro, I received till 100000 ThB for these 2000 Euro, actually around 75000 ThB.

I ( we ) spend monthly that amount here in Thailand.

I have a " Retirement Visa " based on income.

As per today the Belgian Embassy and the Austrian Consulate in Pattaya didn't announce they will no more issue an " Income Letter ".

If they do and if T.I. don't accept proof of income of at least monthly 65000 on a bankbook in Thailand, I am afraid my only option will be to go to Vientiane to obtain a single visa o based on marriage ( 90 days + 60 days extension ) and repeat after this period.

 

 

[ubonjoe]

24 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

That's a fair comment but I find it's more rational to avoid attempts at presuming the intentions of Thai immigration policies. Also in this case there is the bank option path so they can fairly assert if you really can afford to live here you would be able to fund and season that account.

I am not really pressuming anything.

I am certain that many people that have been here for a long time do not have 800k or 400k baht handy to put in a bank. Some may have it but would prefer not to have to put it into a standard or fixed deposit account from a higher earning investment or other type of account that they have for the future or an emergency.

I don't think it is immigrations intention is to arbitrarily change the rules to make it harder for people to stay here.

 

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

I am not really pressuming anything.

I am certain that many people that have been here for a long time do not have 800k or 400k baht handy to put in a bank. Some may have it but would prefer not to have to put it into a standard or fixed deposit account from a higher earning investment or other type of account that they have for the future or an emergency.

I don't think it is immigrations intention is to arbitrarily change the rules to make it harder for people to stay here.

 

Of course I hope you are correct but I still really do think you're making assumptions about their intentions. Probably reasonable ones though. 

My focus has been what are the rules, how are they enforcing them at different offices, while trying to avoid mind reading.

At this point people are understandably GUESSING about what the rules (and enforcement) will be after a large change for some nationals -- no more embassy letters.

Edited October 29, 2018 by Jingthing

[soalbundy]

There must be any number of different nationalities on Tv, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, Dutch, French, Italian etc. and all would have checked with their embassies by now, no reports of change in issuing the letters, so it would seem the bone of contention (caveats and affidavits) lays at the doors of the BE and US embassy.

Even supposing every embassy would refuse the letter, which I doubt, it may make no difference to TI, June is a long way off and many could find other methods to comply with the standing regulations, even the agent method and 80% of the problem would melt away.

[luckyluke]

We are all concerned or may be soon.

 

Some here are very optimistic and some more realist.

 

Time will tell,

anyway it is better to think about a plan B. and hoping it will not be necessary to have to use it. 

[wayned]

31 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

What makes you think they don't?

Do you really believe immigration and the authorities above them want to see a lot of people having to leave because of something they caused?

How can you say that it's because "something that they caused"?   You have admitted that the police order says or "proof of at least 65000 baht income per month" and that's all.  You have also said that the regulation that created the "income Letter" requirement" must be hurried in some interdepartmental or ministerial regulation which you can not find and are all in Thai, so we don't know exactly what the requirements of the directive are. The B, some unnamed low level vice consul most likely, supposedly had a meeting with Immigration officials in May and the problem arose.  It's obvious that that person doesn't understand the requirements of the regional offices and it is most likely that the higher up immigration officials didn't have a clue other than the wording on the police order.  As far as I know no one contacted any of the long time retirees here in Thailand to get their inputs nor did the Thai officials get any input from the officers in the local offices before the meeting.  So they went to the meeting , the blind leading the blind.  The BE  has stated that all you have to do is show that you are receiving 65000 baht/month in your personal Thai bank account, however, the police order in no way requires that the 65000 baht be transferred into an account in Thailand, so what the BE Embassy is saying is total BS.  As I said I also confirmed that my immigration office will not accept anything without the letter from the Embassy.  It just goes on and on and unless the Embassies get involved with some valid and informed inputs and continues to work with immigration it will go nowhere!!

 

I actually sent an email to the Vice Consul at the US Embassy that approved my last Income Affidavit and ask her what the Embassy's plan was on moving forward with this issue.  Of course I have not received an answer.

[ubonjoe]

8 minutes ago, wayned said:

How can you say that it's because "something that they caused"? 

They apparently did start it by requesting a verification of the income which means at the source of it.

We have no clue as to what discussions have gone on between immigration and the embassies.

The embassy talking to local immigration offices would be of little help.

I am in a wait and see mode about it.

[Thaidream]

29 minutes ago, wayned said:

actually sent an email to the Vice Consul at the US Embassy that approved my last Income Affidavit and ask her what the Embassy's plan was on moving forward with this issue.  Of course I have not received an answer.

So have I asking for some detailed answers to issues raised on this forum-To date- no response.

 

It is interesting that no other Embassies have indicated any problems with letters from their end.  If Thai Imm accepts these letters which mostly follow the BE and US examples- I see a conundrum but then again- none of it really comes to a head until mid year 2019.

I have a feeling that this whole issue will drag on into 2019/  It could end with a new Police Order that spells out the  'evidence' needed for each category but the bureaucracy  moves slowly.  I did ask in my email to the US Embassy to go to Thai Imm and ask them to accept the letters until 31 Dec 2019- giving a full year to sort this issue out.  No response yet. 

[wayned]

12 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

The embassy talking to local immigration offices would be of little help.

I never said that the Embassies should talk to the local immigration offices, I said that Thai immigration should talk to and understand exactly what the local offices are currently requiring.   This is a direct quote from the BE website;

 

" The Consular Section can issue a standard letter addressed to Thai Immigration in support of a retirement or marriage visa until 12 December 2018 only. After this time you will be required to show proof of income via your Thai bank account. "

 

The highlighted statement is total BS as there is no current program to show monthly income deposited in your Thai Bank account and there is no current requirement for it to even be brought into Thailand.  If we wait and see, we will end up waiting.  The Embassies should do their job and represent their people and get an acceptable solution to the problem other than waiting.

 

[billd766]

22 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

They apparently did start it by requesting a verification of the income which means at the source of it.

We have no clue as to what discussions have gone on between immigration and the embassies.

The embassy talking to local immigration offices would be of little help.

I am in a wait and see mode about it.

So am I but I have just started a list of options on what I might do IF..........

 

I am up to plan H at the moment.

 

Plan A is to win the lottery.

 

Plan B is the same as ubonjoe and follow his lead as he seems to know far more of what is going on than any other poster on the forum.

[soalbundy]

7 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

So have I asking for some detailed answers to issues raised on this forum-To date- no response.

 

It is interesting that no other Embassies have indicated any problems with letters from their end.  If Thai Imm accepts these letters which mostly follow the BE and US examples- I see a conundrum but then again- none of it really comes to a head until mid year 2019.

I have a feeling that this whole issue will drag on into 2019/  It could end with a new Police Order that spells out the  'evidence' needed for each category but the bureaucracy  moves slowly.  I did ask in my email to the US Embassy to go to Thai Imm and ask them to accept the letters until 31 Dec 2019- giving a full year to sort this issue out.  No response yet. 

That the other embassy letters follow the BE or US examples is questionable, how many issue only affidavits without seeing documents or write a caveat at the bottom of the letter ? probably few to none, it's the tone that makes the music. The German letter uses words like ;- ...to certify... and ..is receiving.. at the same time relating it to documents seen, it gives a confident, positive tone and most importantly, no caveat, as soon as you issue a caveat you are shouting, ''this letter is worthless''.

[wayned]

What should happen is that representatives of the Embassies and Thai Immigration should form a team to evaluate the problem and come up with a way to solve it that is agreeable to all.  I know that it will never happen and the clod medicine that I am taking must be affecting my reasoning!

[OJAS]

58 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

I am in a wait and see mode about it.

IMHO the US & UK embassies are to be roundly criticised for their failure to adopt a similar "wait and see" attitude before pulling the plug on their income confirmation services - particularly since no other embassy has, to date, chosen to follow suit.

[logres212]

Just found this statement on the Australian Embassy website. Looks as though everything remains the same, for now anyway.

We understand that the British Embassy in Bangkok will no longer be providing British nationals with letters confirming their income from 1 January 2019.

The Australian Embassy does not issue income letters. Our notarial services include the witnessing of Australian statutory declarations for Australian citizens, or for use in Australia. This process remains unchanged.

.

[Thaidream]

8 minutes ago, OJAS said:

MHO the US & UK embassies are to be roundly criticised for their failure to adopt a similar "wait and see" attitude before pulling the plug on their income confirmation services - particularly since no other embassy has, to date, chosen to follow suit.

Yes- what was the rush= BE and US stated their positions- cannot verify income at source . They could have said to Tjhai imm we will still issue letters and you can ask for added proof.  Instead, they unilaterally decided not to issue the letters. It makes no sense- I can't imagine Thai Imm saying if you won't verify income at source don't issue anything.    If that was the case Thai Imm would have sent our a message to ALL Embassies- 

Eventually the truth will come out- it always does. Right now- we are all waiting for some factual information on how to proceed.

[soalbundy]

4 minutes ago, sawadeeken said:

NO???????? To What?????? you don't waste much energy in your short 'Unmeaningful' replies....... LOL.........

I 'HATE' one line replies that say 'Nothing' ...... I hate one word replies even more......... If you have a thought or contribution, TELL US ABOUT IT.......... LOL

 

 

No,nothing to do with the disapproval by the UK or US of how the country is run otherwise they would issue warnings to tourists, the UK isn't too bothered about its citizens anyway and the last thing they want is thousands of OAP's coming back to the UK. No, Thailand doesn't resemble a communist state, it resembles mildly a dictatorship but the people still have their basic freedoms and a free press, the right of ownership and the freedom to leave the country. 

[OJAS]

3 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

the last thing they want is thousands of OAP's coming back to the UK

Not least because their State Pensions would then be immediately unfrozen! That said, the resultant extra costs would, of course, be borne by DWP - and not FCO - budgets, meaning that the Embassy at least would probably still not give a toss!!

[Mike Teavee]

28 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Yes- what was the rush= BE and US stated their positions- cannot verify income at source . They could have said to Tjhai imm we will still issue letters and you can ask for added proof.  Instead, they unilaterally decided not to issue the letters. It makes no sense- I can't imagine Thai Imm saying if you won't verify income at source don't issue anything.    If that was the case Thai Imm would have sent our a message to ALL Embassies- 

Eventually the truth will come out- it always does. Right now- we are all waiting for some factual information on how to proceed.

Or it could have gone something like...

 

Thai Immigration: "It's been brought to our attention that when challenged, some of your citizens are unable to provide evidence proving the income declared, from now on we expect you to verify that the amounts are accurate before issuing the document" - Not an unreasonable request from Thai Immigration, albeit one that they've not asked for previously.

 

British/US Embassy: "We're not able to do that" - Not an unreasonable response from the Embassies as they're not able to verify income sources beyond cursory reviewing what they're provided with (British Embassy) or just witnessing signatures (US Embassy) .

 

Result: British/US Embassies acknowledge that they're not able to meet the standards asked by Thai Immigration & so stop issuing the certificates. 

 

Unless something changes in the meantime, there's no doubt that other embassies will follow suit... 

 

Edited October 29, 2018 by Mike Teavee

[frodo77]

I have to provide documents to prove my income before my Canadian Embassy will issue the proof of income letter.

[luckyluke]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

Plan B is the same as ubonjoe and follow his lead as he seems to know far more of what is going on than any other poster on the forum

I salute ubonjoe and his knowledge. 

 

However it seems that in this case he is somewhat

over optimist. 

 

It is maybe a good thing.

 

I always have been "realistic minus" when approaching unknown things. 

 

Never been disappointed with this way :

 

Things turned out to be negative and I was not that surprised/unhappy as I expected it. 

 

It turned out to be positive and I was happily surprised. 

 

But of course we are all different. 

[soalbundy]

15 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Or it could have gone something like...

 

Thai Immigration: "It's been brought to our attention that when challenged, some of your citizens are unable to provide evidence proving the income declared, from now on we expect you to verify that the amounts are accurate before issuing the document" - Not an unreasonable request from Thai Immigration, albeit one that they've not asked for previously.

 

British/US Embassy: "We're not able to do that" - Not an unreasonable response from the Embassies as they're not able to verify income sources beyond cursory reviewing what they're provided with (British Embassy) or just witnessing signatures (US Embassy) .

 

Result: British/US Embassies acknowledge that they're not able to meet the standards asked by Thai Immigration & so stop issuing the certificates. 

 

Unless something changes in the meantime, there's no doubt that other embassies will follow suit... 

 

If Brits aren't able to show supporting docs despite having the embassy letter then BE hasn't shown due diligence. No way would I get my German letter if I couldn't produce original documents, so no I don't think other embassies will follow the BE.

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

I salute ubonjoe and his knowledge. 

 

However it seems that in this case he is somewhat

over optimist. 

 

It is maybe a good thing.

 

I always have been "realistic minus" when approaching unknown things. 

 

Never been disappointed with this way :

 

Things turned out to be negative and I was not that surprised/unhappy as I expected it. 

 

It turned out to be positive and I was happily surprised. 

 

But of course we are all different. 

Start joining all religions, just in case.

[soalbundy]

26 minutes ago, frodo77 said:

I have to provide documents to prove my income before my Canadian Embassy will issue the proof of income letter.

so no doubt do 95% of the other embassies work in this way, except the BE doesn't trust their own citizens documents,hence the caveat and the US couldn't care less and have their citizens swear an affidavit without the documents, no wonder the TI has said ''could do better and does not play well with others'' result, a hissy fit.

[luckyluke]

"No way would I get my German letter if I couldn't produce original documents" 

Same at Austrian Consulate, the secretary (Now Vice-Consul) of the Honorary Consul is, I think, something as 10 years at the job. 

She knows better the documents than the Austrians, Belgians, Dutch, Germans, Luxembourgers who use the services of the consulate. 

Don't think one can foolish her. 

And the "Income Letter" they issue is not an Affidavit but a document issued and signed by the Honorary Consul or the Vice Consul stating the amount in Euro and in ThB the expat has, not what he claim he has. 

Usually people go there the same day or eventually the day before they go to Immigration.