"Easy Ride" for pensioners in Thailand now over, says Pattaya Radio

[Time Traveller]

1 hour ago, webfact said:

stated that those caught offering "under the table" payments would be "caught out".

How about catching out those ACCEPTING "under the table" payments? 

Or are thai government officials exempt from corruption crimes?

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Ultimately, all this still comes down to the basic, still unanswered question of whether the British Embassy is simply being fussy and doing this on their own, or whether Thai Immigration has made some kind of new demand re income letters that embassies in general feel they won't be able to meet...

 

I don't think we know the answer to that fundamental issue, as yet.

No we don't know 100 percent but a clue is that the British embassy in their announcement did NOT mention any such universal change from Thai immigration. 

[Searat7]

34 minutes ago, mercman24 said:

its not a case of having the money, its a case of now having 20,000 english pounds in a Thai bank for 3 months, and we hear every week of skimmers, using cloned cards to nick money from unsuspecting people with the banks taking no responsibility for the losses. and everyone having to show 800,00 baht in the bank i dont trust a Thai bank as far as i can spit

Your posting makes a good case for having 2 baht accounts here; one attached to ATM card and the other holding most of your money. I made this change at BKK Bank a while back. No worries about skimmers.

[RichardColeman]

If they clamp down on the agents doing their biz, Pattaya will become a ghost town. At least 60-70% of the people I know here use the agents.

 

 

 

 

 

[gamini]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

Let's break down what's happening objectively.

 

The British embassy will stop issuing income letters. They are telling their nationals wanting to use an income method to show bank deposits in Thailand instead. Thai immigration officially still REQUIRES embassy income letters of all nationals. Confused? You should be. For now, it would be rational for Brits to prepare to use the 800K bank in a Thai bank method and ignore the strange advice from their own embassy.

 

For now, this appears to only be a British thing in stopping the income letters. 

There is no hard evidence that it will spread, only fear and rumors.

 

As far as CORRUPTION. As far as VISA AGENTS and IMMIGRATION OFFICERS engaging in corruption allowing applications that don't even begin to comply with the rules get accepted in exchange for cash payments, the possibility that there might someday be a CRACKDOWN has always been there. Is that crackdown going to happen soon? Maybe. Maybe not.

 

Personally I have always warned people not to use visa agents in that way because you never know, someday it might bite you real bad. 

 

As far as people doing LEGIT applications, bank or income (if not British) there is as yet no confirmed news that there is any change at all. 

 

Maybe there will be such changes soon, and I understand the reason that people of all nationalities are freaking out and that's including people not engaged in corruption, but I think it's time to CHILL until we actually hear confirmed news of such major changes (for all nationals). 

 

Brits who are going to have problems complying even legitimately, OK, it might be time for them to panic. 

 

I'm not surprised this has happened because many expats did not receive the income that they claim to have. The UK embassy does not have the facilities to check the income is genuine.
Anyone could present a letter from an investment broker like I did and get the letter from the UK embassy. Anyone with knowledge of photoshop could make a fake letter. So you can't blame the Thais for this. 

But I don't see a real problem because if you have a genuine income or pension you have to go to the Ministry of foreign affairs to verify it. Apparently you only have to do this one time not go every year.   So anyone with a genuine income or pension will not really be affected that much.

[bbi1]

1 minute ago, RichardColeman said:

If they clamp down on the agents doing their biz, Pattaya will become a ghost town. At least 60-70% of the people I know here use the agents.

 

 

 

 

 

Can't peeps just do their own paperwork? Geez, is it really that difficult or are peeps in Pattaya that lazy?

[Fred31]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

Thai immigration has ALWAYS required embassy income letters for income based applications. Thai immigration has made no announcement that they will change that as yet. Let's deal with FACTS, rather than assumptions and wishes, shall we?

So this is the British Embassy mean mindedly saving a typist salary and screwing the people it is meant to be helping?

[Spidey]

Just now, gamini said:

But I don't see a real problem because if you have a genuine income or pension you have to go to the Ministry of foreign affairs to verify it. Apparently you only have to do this one time not go every year.   So anyone with a genuine income or pension will not really be affected that much.

Never heard of this. Can you provide a link?

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, gamini said:

I'm not surprised this has happened because many expats did not receive the income that they claim to have. The UK embassy does not have the facilities to check the income is genuine.
Anyone could present a letter from an investment broker like I did and get the letter from the UK embassy. Anyone with knowledge of photoshop could make a fake letter. So you can't blame the Thais for this. 

But I don't see a real problem because if you have a genuine income or pension you have to go to the Ministry of foreign affairs to verify it. Apparently you only have to do this one time not go every year.   So anyone with a genuine income or pension will not really be affected that much.

I'm not with you on that comment. The income letter is a basic requirement. Some embassies require evidence and some don't, but all applicants require the letter. It has always been the case that immigration can demand additional evidence of the claimed income at the time of application. They've always had that power and they still have it. Obviously that's a lot of work and they're not prepared to understand all the kinds of evidence, but no system is perfect. 

[blackhorse]

So this is the British Embassy mean mindedly saving a typist salary and screwing the people it is meant to be helping?

Yes and this is why it can get reversed. But there needs to be a lot of noise!

So far no reports here of anyone making any contact today

[connda]

Too bad our own governments don't reciprocate with quid pro quo for Thais living in our countries.  But - in our own countries, if the same system was implemented for Thais as applied to us here in Thailand - it would be called a human-rights abuse by the media and most of the so-called 'leaders' in government who would simply be shocked and abhorred.

 

Personally, the Thai government is simply shafting itself.  Each pensioner spends their pension in Thailand.  That amount is multiples of what an average Thai earns and spends each year.  So kicking out pensioners is basically cutting off their nose to spite their face.  But talking about face - there's the ugly, ugly face of xenophobia, nationalism, and racism that has gone 'over the top'.  This country truly hates outsiders even as they grovel for tourist money from we hated outsiders.  But those of us living here and dumping 500K to a million THB into the economy each year.  "Get Out!!!" 

 

The xenophobia in this country gets worse by the day.  That's pretty pathetic. 

Edited October 9, 2018 by connda

[crazykopite]

The BE in Bangkok was recently sold it was the most expensive real estate in Thailand , they are re-locating to a smaller Embassy which in turn will mean staff reductions which in turn will require a lessor workload and I suppose at the top of the heap to be kicked into touch is the “ Income Letter “ they I am sure are regarded as a pain in the backside as far as the Embassy are concerned . Having been posted to the BE in Washington DC in the 80s even in those days the British Government came down hard on Embassy budgets and I have no doubt that with the current British Government it’s much the same. It would have been a lot smarter if the Embassy in BKK came up with a reason as to why they are stopping this service but you only have to look at what has been sourced out from this particular Embassy over the last 5/6 years and I believe more is to follow. ????

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, blackhorse said:

Yes and this is why it can get reversed. But there needs to be a lot of noise!

So far no reports here of anyone making any contact today

Banging pots and pans in the streets?

 

 

 

[tifino]

 

strange what a pensioner's salary has to be reported via their Embassy?

 

 

feels like silly climbing an apple tree to pick oranges!

 

 

 

yeah I'm not from UK, being an aussie!

 - but, if I was an aussie pensioner, living in LOS, and required that letter; 

       I don't go to the Embassy... I logically contact CentreLink/DVA etc directly, via the GOV website back in Australia, and get the letter$$ from them

In the aussie sytem, one gets sStatement of Pension; regarding type of pension, and all the $$$ details of how much is paid...

 

 

Does the UK Embassy pay UK pensioners their pension??   that would be stranger!

Edited October 9, 2018 by tifino

[amse]

Don't forget that even though there are thousands of law abiding foreigners living here who can't afford the extreme amount needed in a bank to get a retirement visa, and there are many lawyers helping them out, and understanding immigration officers giving honest foreign retired people a break, that it's a win-win situation for everyone, and the income the retiree's do get goes into Thailand by buying food, renting an apartment/house, buying/renting a vehicle, buying clothes & etc. It not only would be a sad state of affairs for not only the farangs, but also the Thai's providing the services if thousands, maybe even millions had to leave. If the Thai government would lower the amount needed in a bank to say half what it is for a retirement visa, Thailand would be much better off because of it!

Edited October 9, 2018 by metisdead
Bold font removed.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

3 minutes ago, crazykopite said:

 I suppose at the top of the heap to be kicked into touch is the “ Income Letter “ they I am sure are regarded as a pain in the backside as far as the Embassy are concerned . Having been posted to the BE in Washington DC in the 80s even in those days the British Government came down hard on Embassy budgets and I have no doubt that with the current British Government it’s much the same.

 

Dunno about the BE Embassy economics. But at the U.S. Embassy, the affidavits cost $50 each and probably require at max 5-10 mins of staff time per affidavit.  By my calculation, that works out to be a pretty nice little earner, multiplied by many thousands of repeats per year.

 

[Jeffrey346]

How can the BE stop income affidavits if it's required by Thai Immigration? 

[dick dasterdly]

31 minutes ago, Ebumbu said:

Questions please: 

 

1) Being asked for proof from whom? The US embassy does not verify income and are very clear about it. 

2) Where in Thailand did this happen? 

3) Did the IO expect to see a specific, monthly, recurring deposit? 

4) What did they want to see that couldn't be provided? 

5) I earn more than 65,000, but I don't deposit it into a Thai bank account every month. Should I be concerned? My yearly average is comfortably more than 65,000. But some months, I make no deposits. I deposit funds when I need them. 

Apparently, you only need to be concerned if you are British - as it is only the Brit. Embassy that has decided to stop issuing proof of income letters, even though proof was always required to accompany the application.

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, Jeffrey346 said:

How can the BE stop income affidavits if it's required by Thai Immigration? 

Any embassy can do what they like but what they can't do is make Thai immigration policy. At this points, the only thing British expats can be sure of is that bank account applications can still be done. 

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Apparently, you only need to be concerned if you are British - as it is only the Brit. Embassy that has decided to stop issuing proof of income letters, even though proof was always required to accompany the application.

At this point it time, yes. But people are concerned that the British action might be a sign that they are reacting to an immigration change that other embassies may react to in the same way. 

[Jeffrey346]

Quote from the BE website:

 

"This letter has previously served as a supporting document for obtaining a Thai retirement or marriage visa. The British Embassy Bangkok is stopping the certification of income letters because it is unable to fulfil the Thai authorities’ requirements to verify the income of British Nationals".

How come the US Embassy has no knowledge of this?

Has Thai Immigration singled out the British?

Edited October 9, 2018 by Jeffrey346

[chickenslegs]

3 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Dunno about the BE Embassy economics. But at the U.S. Embassy, the affidavits cost $50 each and probably require at max 5-10 mins of staff time per affidavit.  By my calculation, that works out to be a pretty nice little earner, multiplied by many thousands of repeats per year.

 

I concur.

50 GBP for Brits ... and I think your estimate of 5-10 minutes work per letter is a bit high.

Nice little earner indeed.

[Arkady]

1 hour ago, SkyNets said:

Wait what!.... there's still a British embassy here ? lol

Yes, but they will soon move into an office building in Sathorn, since the UK Treasury has sold the rest of the historic site in Wireless Road.  Now they will be paying rent, they may want to cut down the Consular Section further to a much smaller space.  They may also have been under pressure from Immigration via the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to actually vouch that the information provided by the declarant is correct, which they obviously cannot do.  If this is the case, starting with the Brits would be the obvious thing for Immigration to do, since they probably represent the largest group of expat retirees.  Then it would be easier to make other embassies capitulate.  But this is only speculation and we will have to see whether any other embassies follow suit.

[Jingthing]

Just now, Jeffrey346 said:

Quote from the BE website:

 

"This letter has previously served as a supporting document for obtaining a Thai retirement or marriage visa. The British Embassy Bangkok is stopping the certification of income letters because it is unable to fulfil the Thai authorities’ requirements to verify the income of British Nationals".

How come the US Embassy has no knowledge of this?

Has Thai Immigration singed out the British?

We simply do not know. There has been no announcement about any of this from Thai immigration. But people are understandably concerned. 

[Krataiboy]

20 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Of course I was speaking about income based applications, not full bank account applications. Full bank account applications definitely DO NOT require embassy income letters. I should add there are rumors even reports now that some offices may now be requiring STATIC 800K account applications to show some kind of ACTIVITY in those accounts. 

What rumours, what reports? The last time I turned up at Immigration with documentation for both my static account and active accounts, I was told not to bother next time and in future only produce paperwork for the inactive account. 

 

We really need to stop plunging into collective paranoi every time a visa rule is changed - in this case, it seems to me, for perfectly understandable reasons. Time to throw a spanner in the rumour mill.

[Shaunduhpostman]

2 hours ago, webfact said:

The changes come in the wake of Maj-Gen Surachate Hakparn taking over as the new chief of immigration last week. 

 

"Big Joke", as he is affectionately known in the media, has promised to get tough on criminals.

The article writers really making a good effort here to demonize/conflate criminals with people who have up until now been legitimately able to stay in Thailand with a letter from the UK embassy. Also, what does Big Joke becoming immigration chief have to do with the UK's alleged decision not provide income documentation letters? That isn't explained if indeed there is any connection at all.

 

There's no need to make the situation more menacing than it already is with indirect threats, as tho' if you don't have the support of your embassy anymore you become a criminal. Makes you wonder what is going on with this, seems really a deliberate attempt to generate fear amongst people. 

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, Arkady said:

Yes, but they will soon move into an office building in Sathorn, since the UK Treasury has sold the rest of the historic site in Wireless Road.  Now they will be paying rent, they may want to cut down the Consular Section further to a much smaller space.  They may also have been under pressure from Immigration via the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to actually vouch that the information provided by the declarant is correct, which they obviously cannot do.  If this is the case, starting with the Brits would be the obvious thing for Immigration to do, since they probably represent the largest group of expat retirees.  Then it would be easier to make other embassies capitulate.  But this is only speculation and we will have to see whether any other embassies follow suit.

But they and really ANY embassy could easily verify claims made about government pensions. Government pensions generally can provide letters confirming benefits. They could even get a direct computer connection to verify that. Maybe add a charge. Other forms of income, yes that would be different and more problematical. But government pensions are likely the most common type of income reported by retired expats.

[TommyDee]

REPLY FROM FABULOUS 103FM.

 

this is an in accurate report which takes words from sentences to change the meaning and omits other words which qualify the statements made on our radio and TV.  Piss poor reporting by Thai visa I am afraid.  Dan  I expected better of your team.

 

Regards

 

Tommy

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, Krataiboy said:

What rumours, what reports? The last time I turned up at Immigration with documentation for both my static account and active accounts, I was told not to bother next time and in future only produce paperwork for the inactive account. 

 

We really need to stop plunging into collective paranoi every time a visa rule is changed - in this case, it seems to me, for perfectly understandable reasons. Time to throw a spanner in the rumour mill.

Don't shoot the messenger. I heard this on another forum. Take that for what it's worth which may indeed be nothing.

 

Next … 

[dick dasterdly]

28 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Which might indicate that British expats might want to complain and complain LOUDLY in numbers to their embassy. At the very least they need their embassy to clarify if they have some kind of official buy in from Thai immigration that British national's income applications will be accepted without any income letter if other rules are met. Or if they don't have such buy in from Thai immigration as I strongly suspect, they need to make a major edit of their announcement directing people to make such applications without letters.

I agree.  But how to do that?

 

I've tried emailing them, and just get the automatic response referring me to their website, and from other threads I gather trying to 'phone them is a waste of time.

 

I suspect the only way is to hold a placard outside the embassy, decrying their lack of care about Brits. in Thailand!