Yet more confusion over the removal of Income Certification Letter for British expats

[inThailand]

Is the UK pension letter the same as the US one? Where they are just witnessing your signature, not the content or income stated in the letter. Meaning, the letter is worthless to immigration  as a way to verify income. 

[sirineou]

43 minutes ago, sambum said:

"verified" being what the fuss is all about!

of course "verified" is the issue. That's why I made the assertion that the information is easily verified via such portals as the Social security portal where I can log on to my account that shows my reported income for the previous year, estimated benefits id such income is maintained until retirement either age 62,  65 or 67. and after retirement (i am not there yet) I assume will show benefits dispensed. 

  If I walked in to the embay and asked for a letter,and they said they could not give it to me because they could not verify my income I would tell them to log on to my social security account (every american has one, all you need it to log on and set it up, i have a used ID and password)  and I will show them what my verified tax return was for the previous year, and if I was collecting SS benefits,what those benefits ware. 

  Then I would ask them to go to my Trade Unions website, I would log on to my account and have them see what my pension is.

I would sign any release form they want, which as I said in my opening paragraph, I believe I have already done by signing the application for  the verification of income.

   Some say that not all income is reflected in Social Security, but I believe all income is or should be in the tax return, which is reflected in the SS statement .

Below is a screenshot of what part of your SS account shows it took me five seconds to access .

 

And even if they could not verify all your income, least you will have partial verification and only have to make up the shortfall by bank deposit. 

Edited October 13, 2018 by sirineou

[moe666]

10 hours ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

So basically the US Embassy is not verifying it... and thus are not fulfilling the requirement for the Thai government.  It would not be valid for the purposes stated by the Thai government.

If I ly when I raise my hand and swear that my statement is true I am subject to criminal prosecution

[chickenslegs]

9 minutes ago, inThailand said:

Is the UK pension letter the same as the US one? Where they are just witnessing your signature, not the content or income stated in the letter. Meaning, the letter is worthless to immigration  as a way to verify income. 

No. The British Embassy requires evidence of income. I use my P60 annual income tax statement which shows my total pension income for the previous year, and the source of the pension. At other times I have provided a letter from my pension provider.

[bizboi]

I want to raise another point here for fellow brits. A UK state pension (full) is 175 pounds a week thats 700 a month approximately. at an exchange rate of 43.75 baht to the pound thats 30,625 baht a month. So on a full UK pension you cant get the full 40,000 to be able to stay on a marriage visa. So doesnt everyone have to show the 400,000 in savings unless they have a private pension? Am i missing something or am i correct in thinking you cant stay in thailand on a marriage visa with only a UK state pensioned no savings? Also what about if you own a property like a condo in joint names with wife is that taken into consideration by immigration for visa purposes?

Edited October 13, 2018 by bizboi
mistake on figure

[Scott]

Troll posts removed.   Continue and face a suspensions.  

 

[55Jay]

18 minutes ago, inThailand said:

Is the UK pension letter the same as the US one? Where they are just witnessing your signature, not the content or income stated in the letter. Meaning, the letter is worthless to immigration  as a way to verify income. 

The US letter advertises what it is, and what it isn't, in very plain language.  It's right there on the label.

 

The fact Thai Immigration has and continues to accept them means they aren't "worthless" at all.  They accept the same kind of letters from other Embassies here as well. 

 

The US letters don't cost as much as the UK.  No extra papers to fiddle around with up front, but have them ready in the event Thai Immigration wants to see them - fair enough.  They don't take as long to obtain and in the end, accomplish the very same thing as the UK letters.   

 

Ironic, innit? ????

 

 

 

[inThailand]

1 minute ago, 55Jay said:

The US letter advertises what it is, and what it isn't, in very plain language.  It's right there on the label.

 

The fact Thai Immigration has and continues to accept them means they aren't "worthless" at all.  They accept the same kind of letters from other Embassies here as well. 

 

The US letters don't cost as much as the UK.  No extra papers to fiddle around with up front, but have them ready in the event Thai Immigration wants to see them - fair enough.  They don't take as long to obtain and in the end, accomplish the very same thing as the UK letters.   

 

Ironic, innit? ????

 

 

 

Are you sure? My understanding other embassies actually verify the income where the US one does not. They are simply a notary. 

[totally thaied up]

13 minutes ago, bizboi said:

I want to raise another point here for fellow brits. A UK state pension (full) is 175 pounds a week thats 700 a month approximately. at an exchange rate of 43.75 baht to the pound thats 30,625 baht a month. So on a full UK pension you cant get the full 40,000 to be able to stay. So doesnt everyone have to show the 800,000 in savings unless they have a private pension?

Most of my British friends (I have four British friends at the average age of 75) have the 800K in the bank. They get the state pension and live off that per month. The scary part is, most my friends do not have insurances (too expensive for them) and most have less than 20,000 pounds in the bank. One time falling sick is enough for them to get wiped out. I think that is why that 800K needed in that bank is a buffer for such occasions. 

Edited October 13, 2018 by totally thaied up

[55Jay]

Just now, inThailand said:

Are you sure? My understanding other embassies actually verify the income where the US one does not. They are simply a notary. 

What do you mean, "verify"?  The UK Embassy doesn't even do that, which is what this is all about.   Apparently. 

[inThailand]

8 minutes ago, 55Jay said:

What do you mean, "verify"?  The UK Embassy doesn't even do that, which is what this is all about.   Apparently. 

Then why are so many complaining? They are upset because they can no longer falsify their income? Blimey! 

Edited October 13, 2018 by inThailand

[losername]

36 minutes ago, totally thaied up said:

Most of my British friends (I have four British friends at the average age of 75) have the 800K in the bank. They get the state pension and live off that per month. The scary part is, most my friends do not have insurances (too expensive for them) and most have less than 20,000 pounds in the bank. One time falling sick is enough for them to get wiped out. I think that is why that 800K needed in that bank is a buffer for such occasions. 

I am very surprised that anyone can live here on their State Pension alone.  I live frugally and could not.  I totally agree that, for retired persons, sickness, with or without insurance, is the crucial factor that could send us home.  Whether you can then receive NHS treatment in time is another matter.

[Luckysilk]

20 minutes ago, inThailand said:

Then why are so many complaining? They are upset because they can no longer falsify their income? Blimey! 

That's it in a nutshell - the Brit pension isn't enough monthly so they have to come up with documents and they swear they are legit. The BE is in a difficult position diplomatically generating what could be documents based on fraudulent information supplied.

 

I also think it's lazy on Thai Immigrations part to solely depend on a piece of paper from an Embassy - mind you they do the same idiotic thing for a driver's license.

 

Keep in mind a lot of guys are 50+ and can't access any state pension so I can imagine the yarns they spin.

 

I believe other Embassies will follow as the embassies cannot continue doing business like this, at the end of the day it's 250 people a month the embassy says they are handling. It's not a big number or deal IMO.

 

Of course these are the folks that can't afford to go home so they are screwed - some say they have millions stashed yet won't bring over a measly 800 or 400k.

 

The Brits send by mail and yes they include copies - the old one bank account to another scam etc.

 

The Americans just put their hand on heart and say trust me.

 

I'm in a Facebook group and 99% of the guys have the money on deposit as I do and they are rapidly losing interest in this topic as petitions won't work nor screaming at the Embassy, not sure why it's such a hot topic here.

 

Anyone who thought Thailand was home for life had better think what options are available - bring money in ASAP, another country or go home.

 

 

[55Jay]

Just now, inThailand said:

Then why are so many complaining? They are upset they can no longer falsify their income? 

Because the BE is about to give many Brits here the Royal Shaft.  I'd be angry too.

 

I don't know if any Brits falsify their income support documents.  It's not unthinkable that some Brits who were cutting it close to the bone before the Pound took a severe beating in recent years, may have slipped below the mark. 

 

Given the availability of home publishing and editing software, wouldn't be terribly difficult to do, especially in light of the fact there isn't any "actual verification" going on to begin with.  The BE themselves have virtually admitted that through their actions.  If they were, it wouldn't be the Brits in this position.  It would be the Yanks and others.  But that's not the case.

[55Jay]

39 minutes ago, Luckysilk said:

That's it in a nutshell - the Brit pension isn't enough monthly so they have to come up with documents and they swear they are legit. The BE is in a difficult position diplomatically generating what could be documents based on fraudulent information supplied.

 

I also think it's lazy on Thai Immigrations part to solely depend on a piece of paper from an Embassy - mind you they do the same idiotic thing for a driver's license.

 

Keep in mind a lot of guys are 50+ and can't access any state pension so I can imagine the yarns they spin.

 

I believe other Embassies will follow as the embassies cannot continue doing business like this, at the end of the day it's 250 people a month the embassy says they are handling. It's not a big number or deal IMO.

 

Of course these are the folks that can't afford to go home so they are screwed - some say they have millions stashed yet won't bring over a measly 800 or 400k.

 

The Brits send by mail and yes they include copies - the old one bank account to another scam etc.

 

The Americans just put their hand on heart and say trust me.

 

I'm in a Facebook group and 99% of the guys have the money on deposit as I do and they are rapidly losing interest in this topic as petitions won't work nor screaming at the Embassy, not sure why it's such a hot topic here.

 

Anyone who thought Thailand was home for life had better think what options are available - bring money in ASAP, another country or go home.

All good stuff you've mentioned, although the last part is a bit harsh.

 

There's obviously a bit more to the BE's sudden, inflexible interpretation, and earnest desire to comply with the sometimes whimsical natives, at the expense of a few thousand Brits.  

 

I really thought they would have shown a bit more grit. 

 

 

Edited October 13, 2018 by 55Jay

[fordguy61mi]

14 hours ago, keith101 said:

I cant see why the Embassy wont issue these letters as they are a part of the British Government and the Pensions are issued from the same Government , it should be a very simple matter to confirm the applicants identity and issue the statement . The other possibility is that they are just to lazy to do the job there being paid for .

Some pensions are from private companies, not the government.

[fordguy61mi]

I’m not close to retirement yet so I haven’t looked into the requirements very deep before but I always just assumed you would have to provide an address from your pension provider that the embassy could send a letter to and confirm your pension amount before issuing a letter. I had no clue they had just been issuing letters based on people swearing they were receiving the required amounts. I’m really surprised they’ve let it go this long. There must be tons of expats that lied and don’t really qualify and are getting caught up in this. No wonder these threads are so long and gaining a lot of attention!

[inThailand]

Don't many pensioners have their money direct deposited into their Thai bank account? If so, won't a yearly bank statement and bank letter confirming such, suffice? 

[davehowden]

11 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I've been reading and posting to this forum for dog's years. Not one report ever of such an accepted income application without a letter. Yet the British Embassy is trying to promote that it's common. BIZARRE!

Not that surprising from a department whose Secretary of State is not sure whether his wife is Japanese or Chinese!

[55Jay]

24 minutes ago, fordguy61mi said:

I’m not close to retirement yet so I haven’t looked into the requirements very deep before but I always just assumed you would have to provide an address from your pension provider that the embassy could send a letter to and confirm your pension amount before issuing a letter. I had no clue they had just been issuing letters based on people swearing they were receiving the required amounts. I’m really surprised they’ve let it go this long. There must be tons of expats that lied and don’t really qualify and are getting caught up in this. No wonder these threads are so long and gaining a lot of attention!

Surely there are some, maybe even quite a few.  Tons?  Guess we'll find out in a couple months unless an adult somewhere in the UK gets their arms around this.

 

I don't know what your professional background and understanding of government and diplomatic mission priorities is, but think about it.  Does it seem feasible that an Embassy would actually send a letter, possibly more than one, out to various government entities, or private entities, investment brokerages, banks,  etc., possibly foreign/third party countries, asking to verify the income of some random dude on the other side of the world?  Require the recipients to provide a response ASAP.  What if they don't?  What if they don't respond at all? 

 

Do this on demand for whoever turns up at the Embassy asking for it.  Over and over again.

 

Just to satisfy some random requirement by a 3rd/Developing World country's Immigration service. 

[ozmeldo]

10 hours ago, Thaidream said:

I got it and a lot more- and I know plenty that also have it- Many of us will continue to use the monthly system  because that is what the Thai Police Order says.  I have no intention of  placing 800K in a Thai Bank Account unless absolutely forced to do so but at present there are other options.

 

BE can do what they want but  it is up to Thai Imm what they will accept.  Plenty of time for them to figure it out. British citizens can still have the  Income Form work for them until earl June 2019.

What am I missing here? Immigration requires verification from your embassy. If you are US citizen, you're alright Jack - at the moment. The entire sgitfest is about the UK verificationno longer being issued. Therefore, nothing to produce for immigration. Route closed. Do not pass go, deposit 800k

 

Same will happen with all imo.

 

Thai banks are at least as strong as USA. But if they default, I'm sure we are last in line.

[ozmeldo]

10 hours ago, jesimps said:

Some weird folk on here. Unless you personally know every farang expat with a one year visa, how on earth can you make a statement like that? It's almost as though a few of the expats on here actually take great delight in others misery.

Because I used to know a great many Brits.

 

What misery? Deposit the money and <deleted>. Moaners

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, inThailand said:

Don't many pensioners have their money direct deposited into their Thai bank account? If so, won't a yearly bank statement and bank letter confirming such, suffice? 

Some do, some don't. Many have pensions paid in their home countries. As things stand currently, embassy income letters are required for all income based applications. Additional evidence is sometimes demanded and the officers have always had that right. 

[Spidey]

7 hours ago, ajnamoon said:

Really    thats strange   as when i first came here  i got a one year retirement extension from Thai  Consulate  in  Hull    UK

No. You got a retirement visa not an extension.

[smotherb]

17 hours ago, BobBKK said:

They don't accept a THAI bank book with obvious foreign income coming in monthly?  thats absurd 

Year before last, at Hatyai immigration, I was told they did not need to see my income statement--from US embassy--they just wanted to see the B65k/mo filtered through a Thai bank.

 

Last year, immigration only wanted to see the income letter and did not bother to check the monthly deposits, just that we had a Thai bank account. 

 

I think being absurd is the Thai immigration business model.  

[Spidey]

7 hours ago, pontious said:

Do you know of any embassies who verify - I have not heard of any.

Why should the BE.

 

What have Thai Immigration told BE? That they want the information verified? And what have they told BE will happen if they continue to issue the letters as they do now? Stop accepting the letters? No, BE are continuing to issue the letters ATM and the IO is continuing to accept them, as it is with every other embassy who provide equal or less verification than BE, never more.

 

Thai immigration are going to continue to accept the BE letters for at least another 8 months, and have given no indication that they are going to stop accepting them at any time in the future. So why don't the BE put the ball back into Thai Immigration's court and continue to issue the letters?

 

Because BE have played semantics with Thai Immigration's words and used this as an excuse to cease this facility. Why? It was hinted at by the BE representative on Tommy Dee's show. F.O officials (probably accountants) recently came over and audited the Embassy's operation. She clearly stated that it was their decision, not the embassy's decision to stop this service. Ergo it's a cost cutting exercise.

 

The whole issue revolves around reducing the need for office space, pursuant to their move to a new, smaller embassy and being able to cut a couple (or more) Thai support staff thus giving them a saving on salaries.

 

The British Embassy are lying, thieving, scum and they have thrown us under a bus for a few Shekels.

[superal]

16 hours ago, wgdanson said:

At present,(until 12th Dec) the Consulate will issue a letter saying that Mr.UK.Expat told them, and showed Bank Statements to confirm, that they have a minimum of Bht 65,000 per month going into their UK (or other country) bank account. The Consular workers CANNOT go to every pension provider, rent payer, investment company etc, to verify that these figures are genuine. If there was any investigation into any 'financial irregularities' the Consulate would be legally responsible. So that's why they are stopping issuing these letters. The USA is different in that Mr. USA.Expat SWEARS that the information is genuine and if anything is found to be wrong, the Expat is responsible. 

The Consulate now says that the Immigration will accept a regular deposit of at least Bht 65,000 per month into a Thai bank account, easily verified because it will say FTT (Foreign Transfer) on the bank statement or bank book. Is it that easy or not? 

The Bht 800,000 for at least three months has always been and will stay as an alternative.

What means of money transfer do you use that shows FTT ( the popular Transferwise does not )  and to other readers as well , after 3 months is it a problem sending the 4/800k back to your home country  bank account  ?  because I always use T/W and they are only a one way transaction , UK to Thailand .

With regards to an income based on the rental of your UK home , would a copy of the rental agreement suffice ?

[rickudon]

Proper income verification would cost over 10,000 baht if you have multiple sources of income, and could still be faked. It is just a hurdle. No embassy does it, and many others have already stated they do not intend changing how they issue letters, only the British Embassy. So who is lying as to the reason, the British Embassy or the rest? Hmmm, a hard one that!

 

IF immigration was to accept money deposited monthly in a Thai bank, there is still one other issue - the 65,000 baht a month is currently gross income .... but what is deposited is NET income. So those who are currently finding it tough, would now have 5-10% less, or even more. So then some will fall below the legal level. Another turn of the rack - but applied by the British embassy instead of immigration!

 

Many of the posters here seem to be quite  wealthy. How much does the average retired expat Brit have in Thailand? Very few have 100,000 a month in my experience, most a LOT less. I would say among those i know most do either the income letter, or use an agent (so presumably cannot even meet the current 65,000/40,000 baht a month income). Some do the genuine cash deposit, but are definitely in the minority, and some use Savannakhet for 12 month visas.

 

No, just another UK government cost cutting exercise without a thought of who it affects. We are just annoying worms to those who run our government. They do not give a f~~k about us.

 

 

[superal]

4 minutes ago, rickudon said:

Proper income verification would cost over 10,000 baht if you have multiple sources of income, and could still be faked. It is just a hurdle. No embassy does it, and many others have already stated they do not intend changing how they issue letters, only the British Embassy. So who is lying as to the reason, the British Embassy or the rest? Hmmm, a hard one that!

 

IF immigration was to accept money deposited monthly in a Thai bank, there is still one other issue - the 65,000 baht a month is currently gross income .... but what is deposited is NET income. So those who are currently finding it tough, would now have 5-10% less, or even more. So then some will fall below the legal level. Another turn of the rack - but applied by the British embassy instead of immigration!

 

Many of the posters here seem to be quite  wealthy. How much does the average retired expat Brit have in Thailand? Very few have 100,000 a month in my experience, most a LOT less. I would say among those i know most do either the income letter, or use an agent (so presumably cannot even meet the current 65,000/40,000 baht a month income). Some do the genuine cash deposit, but are definitely in the minority, and some use Savannakhet for 12 month visas.

 

No, just another UK government cost cutting exercise without a thought of who it affects. We are just annoying worms to those who run our government. They do not give a f~~k about us.

 

 

Hi Rick ,

           Not sure about a cost cutting exercise by the UK government cos for what they have to do in the form of affirmation is very little and for 2000 baht ? must be losing a lot of money , not that they give a f/f as they have already subcontracted other services . Have to wonder if there are other services that may disappear . I am going to visit my local Thai Immigration office next week to ask them what is acceptable to them , paperwork wise to obtain the visa . There is not too much consistency with the rules and law interpretation throughout the land so there may be less hurdles than we think .

[rickudon]

One other thing. I do not have a problem with bringing in 40,000 baht a month, but currently i find it convenient to use a credit card, or a bit of cash whenever returning from the UK (has been twice a year of late). Having to get proof of this could be an issue. Keep every ATM receipt, CC transaction? Getting a cash declaration form from customs every time i bring back 500 GBP? Also, if i am out of the country for 2 months would i still need to deposit 40,000 baht each month in a Thai bank? That is when it gets stupid.

 

The current income letter works for me (and Thai immigration, I'm sure). Fake documents? You have to provide documents to get the BE letter. Sure you could fake them, but the time, cost and risk of criminal prosecution from doing so would make the agent route as easy.

 

Now, an income affidavit (like USA citizens and Australians get) requires no forgery, just one lie ...... far more open to abuse.