Yet more confusion over the removal of Income Certification Letter for British expats

[Chongalulu]

On 10/13/2018 at 2:12 PM, wgdanson said:

Do you think the Consulate should go question Mr J Bloggs who rents my UK house from me, and ask him to give sworn evidence that he pays me £XXX per month?

No,you show the signed rental agreement ,probably drawn up by the letting agent ,and then your bank statement showing the corresponding rent paid in. 

[rayw]

4 hours ago, HHTel said:

Not so.  I get some tax free income (quite legal)  plus over taxed by some companies requiring me to claim tax back from the Inland Revenue.  

But for 99% of us with just our pensions income to decalre for the income confirmation requirement it will serve such a useful purpose adn easily too.  I accept of course there will be some anomalies but suggest these will be the exceptions rather than the rule.  Personal;ly I do nto even have to complete a tax retuirn as I only have my two pension incomes, one state and one from my old employment wiht no other assets outside what I have here in Thailand.  I know many legally living here with Spouse or Retirement VISAs who are in the same boat and never been any problem up this bloody UK Embassy disgraceful decision. 

 

Surely even in your situation your Inland Revenue tax files hled on their servers should be able to confirm you have sufficient income if indeed you could show the Embassy such income confirmation documents before.  It would not be difficult for the FCO or any other Government department, including overseas embassies, to be able to set up an easy system to secuely access, even as read only, such inland revenue data.    

[Chongalulu]

Are immigration saying they won’t accept income letters after 1 January ?Because a letter obtained before they stop issuing them is normally valid 6 months. So my extension is due 22 January for which I would normally get a letter done early December. So will that still work? 

[Jingthing]

Are immigration saying they won’t accept income letters after 1 January ?Because a letter obtained before they stop issuing them is normally valid 6 months. So my extension is due 22 January for which I would normally get a letter done early December. So will that still work? 

Yes.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[wgdanson]

2 minutes ago, nchuckle said:

Are immigration saying they won’t accept income letters after 1 January ?Because a letter obtained before they stop issuing them is normally valid 6 months. So my extension is due 22 January for which I would normally get a letter done early December. So will that still work? 

Immigration have NOT said they will not accept income letters. The British Consulate have said that they will no longer issue them.   Sad to hear about your brother n!

[wgdanson]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Yes.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

NO. See my reply to nchuckle, brother !

[rott]

39 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Why would you be getting the TT rate, its not a telegraphic transfer (account to account), it would be the ATM rate or the credit card cash advance rate. 

If you use an ATM or over the counter, its the ATM rate or you can elect to (if the counter withdrawal offers) continue without the ATM conversion rate, then its the credit/debit card provider rate. Either way its a very low rate compared to TT rate or cash rate. A payment or a withdrawal with a credit/debit card is never the TT rate. Yes its convenient and you save the ATM fees but on a large withdrawal you are probably a few thousand baht worse off ,due to the low exchange rate.

Never used a card/atm myself but according to daytodaydata who monitor exhange rates, the atm rate is the TT rate less the charge.

And the cash rate differs sharply between banks and bureau de change.

Edited October 14, 2018 by rott

[Kadilo]

Tommy Dee needs to get the lady back on his radio show with a rep from Thai immigration and put all the points she confirmed to him for clarification. 

Until that platform is organised everyone is just pissing in the wind. 

If he’s not up to the job then get someone who is willing to play back her interview and ask the TI the relevant questions around monthly income/combo payments. 

He has opened the can of worms and he needs to close it not leave it ajar. 

If the BE are BS then they need to be made accountable and the only way is a face to face with TI. 

At the moment is just one petition after another letter and another thread. It’s not coordinated and easy to ignore. 

[Peterw42]

38 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Why would you be getting the TT rate, its not a telegraphic transfer (account to account), it would be the ATM rate or the credit card cash advance rate. 

If you use an ATM or over the counter, its the ATM rate or you can elect to (if the counter withdrawal offers) continue without the ATM conversion rate, then its the credit/debit card provider rate. Either way its a very low rate compared to TT rate or cash rate. A payment or a withdrawal with a credit/debit card is never the TT rate. Yes its convenient and you save the ATM fees but on a large withdrawal you are probably a few thousand baht worse off ,due to the low exchange rate. 

Todays visa ex rate 30.6, todays TT rate 32.5. On $1,000 US. A 2,000 baht difference.

 

[Pattaya46]

18 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Yes.

 

15 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

NO. See my reply to nchuckle, brother !

 

What's the point to reply by YES or NO...

when there is TWO questions in the message ?

We just don't know what you mean.  

[wgdanson]

2 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

 

 

What's the point to reply by YES or NO...

when there is TWO questions in the message ?

We just don't know what you mean.  

Jingthing said YES, Immigration will not accept letter, I said NO, they will continue to accept the letters IF the Consulate would still issue them. This is referring to nchuckles on post no. 603.

[HHTel]

29 minutes ago, rayw said:

But for 99% of us with just our pensions income to decalre for the income confirmation requirement it will serve such a useful purpose adn easily too.  I accept of course there will be some anomalies but suggest these will be the exceptions rather than the rule.  Personal;ly I do nto even have to complete a tax retuirn as I only have my two pension incomes, one state and one from my old employment wiht no other assets outside what I have here in Thailand.  I know many legally living here with Spouse or Retirement VISAs who are in the same boat and never been any problem up this bloody UK Embassy disgraceful decision. 

 

Surely even in your situation your Inland Revenue tax files hled on their servers should be able to confirm you have sufficient income if indeed you could show the Embassy such income confirmation documents before.  It would not be difficult for the FCO or any other Government department, including overseas embassies, to be able to set up an easy system to secuely access, even as read only, such inland revenue data.    

Very often, pensions are taxed at source.  When more than one company is involved, your tax code (used to calculate tax payable) is different for each company.  Consequently pensions are often taxed on an 'emergency tax' situation leaving it up to you to claim it back.  Should you not claim it then the Inland Revenue will generate a tax refund anyway, but you have to wait for it.

 

I also don't fill in tax returns.

[cleopatra2]

25 minutes ago, Kadilo said:

Tommy Dee needs to get the lady back on his radio show with a rep from Thai immigration and put all the points she confirmed to him for clarification. 

Until that platform is organised everyone is just pissing in the wind. 

If he’s not up to the job then get someone who is willing to play back her interview and ask the TI the relevant questions around monthly income/combo payments. 

He has opened the can of worms and he needs to close it not leave it ajar. 

If the BE are BS then they need to be made accountable and the only way is a face to face with TI. 

At the moment is just one petition after another letter and another thread. It’s not coordinated and easy to ignore. 

The BE representative replies were somewhat confusing , and did not come across authoritative, leaving a question as to whether they actually had any knowledge of the issues.

 

If I understood her correctly , the BE did not do any verification , simply rubber stamping the income letters. The issue of non compliance with whatever ( policy or regulation) coming to light after a FCO audit. Is the Embassy really acting without knowledge of relevant laws and requirements.

 

What was left unanswered , the rationale for stopping the income letters. Is it FCO policy or law preventing such verification or unilaterally decision by the Bangkok BE

 

Edited October 14, 2018 by cleopatra2

[Jingthing]

NO. See my reply to nchuckle, brother !

The letters as long as they issue them are good for six months even after they stop issuing them. Perhaps I misread his post. As I read it he will be getting a letter and using it within six months. If so the answer is still yes.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Pib]

3 hours ago, SheungWan said:

The UK is no longer willing to waive through financial statements, and nor does it consider it has the resources to do so. Motivation is somewhat irrelevant now. And it not the UK's job to accommodate Thai immigration, but rather to consider and respond. The easiest way forward would be for TI to take the process in-house IMHO. In the interim, maybe the UK can extend the deadline, but that has its own set of drawbacks.

The easiest way forward for Thai Immigration is to just leave its current policies unchanged. 

 

If one embassy decides to stop issuing the letters then so be it....their citizens will just have to use the other option of Bt800K/Bt400K in a Thai bank.   I really don't think TI is going to change its policy because one embassy doesn't want to issue its citizens income letters anymore.   If TI drops the income letter requirement for one nationality they would have to do it for all others---TI is not going to do that.

[Jingthing]

Tommy Dee needs to get the lady back on his radio show with a rep from Thai immigration and put all the points she confirmed to him for clarification. 
Until that platform is organised everyone is just pissing in the wind. 
If he’s not up to the job then get someone who is willing to play back her interview and ask the TI the relevant questions around monthly income/combo payments. 
He has opened the can of worms and he needs to close it not leave it ajar. 
If the BE are BS then they need to be made accountable and the only way is a face to face with TI. 
At the moment is just one petition after another letter and another thread. It’s not coordinated and easy to ignore. 

Also need to seriously ask about showing payments into non Thai banks, sending over in chunks rather than monthly, and nixing a requirement to import the entire income claim annually which has never been a requirement before!

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Jingthing]

 
What's the point to reply by YES or NO...
when there is TWO questions in the message ?
We just don't know what you mean.  

I saw one question.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Jingthing]

Jingthing said YES, Immigration will not accept letter, I said NO, they will continue to accept the letters IF the Consulate would still issue them. This is referring to nchuckles on post no. 603.

No! I said they will accept the letter for six months!!!!!

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[jimn]

1 hour ago, Orac said:

 

The impression I got from the interview was that it was not just a compliance audit but one to evaluate where costs could be cut and downsizing take place. Needs to be remembered this is all taking place at the same time as they move from a large site of prime real estate into a condo or such like in the CBD.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

I am convinced that this is the crux of the issue. They mistakenly believed that Thai Immigration accepted bank statements as proof of income. The auditor obviously looked at this and decided the income letter was duplication. Hence a way in their view to cut costs. There is massive business out there looking at company's ways of working. Its called "Lean Methology". The foreign office has obviously brought in these "so called experts" and this has been highlighted as a saving, when unfortunately it is not. Its got nothing to do with varification and so called fraud. Its just a smoke screen.

Edited October 14, 2018 by jimn

[Jingthing]

The easiest way forward for Thai Immigration is to just leave its current policies unchanged. 
 
If one embassy decides to stop issuing the letters then so be it....their citizens will just have to use the other option of Bt800K/Bt400K in a Thai bank.   I really don't think TI is going to change its policy because one embassy doesn't want to issue its citizens income letters anymore.   If TI drops the income letter requirement for one nationality they would have to do it for all others---TI is not going to do that.

Yes. They might and then change to the onerous regime being pushed by the BE for all! Can of worms.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Expattaff1308]

If what Ive read in the last few pages that this is a result of an FCO Audit rather than instigated by Immigration someone needs to be held to account especially as one poster wrote a fictitious conversation between the Embassy Official & the FCO Auditor.

Auditor "So, these 3,000 applications, if you discontinued them, are citizens able to use other means to prove their income?"

Interviewee " Oh yah, no problem.  They can use their bank statements".  Omitting the all too important "oh, by the way, I don't have a freaking clue about the process or what I'm talking about".

Which albeit tongue in cheek, does in fact sound very much like the advice we have been given regarding Bank Statements by the BE which contradicts what Immigration are saying...That an Embassy Letter IS Required to Show Income and NOT Bank Deposits.

Edited October 14, 2018 by Expattaff1308

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

7 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

I'm obviously living in the wrong part of the country, as I already pay an agent 30,000 bht to deal with my entirely legal extensions (based on income)!  Although, to be fair, the cost also includes the agent dealing with 90 day reports on my behalf and coming to my house to collect all the necessary paperwork/return passport once completed.

 

Also to be fair, the agent makes it simpler when it comes to some of the constantly changing 'requirements' at the local IO.....  i.e. takes the necessary (???? - why on earth are they 'necessary'?) 'photos of me in my house etc. ????

 

Even so, the proof of income letter from the brit. embassy has always been required.

 

 

So what's your 30K visa agent saying about your prospects -- if/when there's no longer any UK Embassy income letters?

 

[Pib]

Maybe the BE should consider below.

 

[NanLaew]

12 minutes ago, Spidey said:

You may be underestimating Big Joke.

Possibly and TBH, it was a factor in my earlier 'reasoning' but ultimately in this regard, I consider that some think too much.

 

That's a pretty big revenue stream that he would be trying to shut down.

[Kadilo]

43 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Also need to seriously ask about showing payments into non Thai banks, sending over in chunks rather than monthly, and nixing a requirement to import the entire income claim annually which has never been a requirement before!

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Agreed. That’s is why I said yesterday that us Brits need a coordinated effort and need to be mindful of other nationalities just because our Embassy appear misinformed. 

[Cricky]

13 minutes ago, Pib said:

Maybe the BE should consider below.

 

I doubt the Embassy is going to admit they have made a mistake, I have never seen a bureaucracy admit that they are in the wrong, getting a lawsuit is too easy these days.

Edited October 14, 2018 by VYCM

[Pib]

30 minutes ago, VYCM said:

I doubt the Embassy is going to admit they have made a mistake, I have never seen a bureaucracy admit that they are in the wrong, getting a lawsuit is too easy these days.

A lot will depend on the true rationale given the "BE approval official" for doing away with the income letter.  By approval official I mean a senior individual at the embassy (not the embassy rep that was doing the radio interview) that approved the recommendation of the staff and/or efficiency audit report if such a report was done.

 

If a major part of the rationale was we can stop issuing income letters because they are not really needed per "BE review" of Thai Immigration policies, but it turns out the BE review of TI polices was just wrong/incomplete/misunderstood then I think the BE would reverse their decision especially since it is having such a negative impact on many Brits in Thailand.

[Jingthing]

12 minutes ago, Pib said:

A lot will depend on the true rationale given the "BE approval official" for doing away with the income letter.  By approval official I mean a senior individual at the embassy (not the embassy rep that was doing the radio interview) that approved the recommendation of the staff and/or efficiency audit report if such a report was done.

 

If a major part of the rationale was we can stop issuing income letters because they are not really needed per "BE review" of Thai Immigration policies, but it turns out the BE review of TI polices was just wrong/incomplete/misunderstood then I think the BE would reverse their decision especially since it is having such a negative impact on many Brits in Thailand.

It would at least have been more honest and less potentially destructive to non-British foreigners here to say … look there is definitely another path for you. The bank account method where you need to season the funds. The income method requires the embassy letter and we won't be doing that any more. So sorry. But you still have that other option. Instead it's almost a farce with the game they're playing with the income method without the letters. 

[norfolkandchance]

2 hours ago, nchuckle said:

No,you show the signed rental agreement ,probably drawn up by the letting agent ,and then your bank statement showing the corresponding rent paid in. 

 Bugger this. Where are my Tea bags

[Spidey]

1 hour ago, NanLaew said:

Possibly and TBH, it was a factor in my earlier 'reasoning' but ultimately in this regard, I consider that some think too much.

 

That's a pretty big revenue stream that he would be trying to shut down.

A revenue stream that goes straight into his subordinates back pockets. He's already proved that he will come down hard on this kind of activity.