Yet more confusion over the removal of Income Certification Letter for British expats

[SheungWan]

14 minutes ago, Kadilo said:

Any chance of keeping this thread on topic for the many many worried ex pats looking in for any good advice/updates as opposed to the constant bickering, point scoring dross by some. 

Those who have been using the BE letter service to date and are in a position to apply for another one are advised to get one before the deadline would be the advice from all sides. Those who return to the UK once+ per year may wish to consider getting either non-imm O or O-A. Those who have burned their boats can either switch to lump sum (if they have the capital) or using an agent. In the meantime the 'bickering' is about what the BE or TI might or should do or shouldn't have done. Perfectly legitimate argument. And the nature of argument is that it inevitably wanders about a little. Sorry about the dross.

Edited October 19, 2018 by SheungWan

[Esso49]

20 minutes ago, Kadilo said:

Any chance of keeping this thread on topic for the many many worried ex pats looking in for any good advice/updates as opposed to the constant bickering, point scoring dross by some. 

The problem as I set it is that there are so many frustrating comments by those unaffected

Edited October 19, 2018 by Esso49

[geoffbezoz]

6 minutes ago, Esso49 said:

The problem as I set it is that there are so many frustrating comments by those unaffected

 

The problem  appears to be that the actual subject matter is unsolvable by any members on this forum. Many anonymous experts but none in any position to resolve anything. 

 

There are members, myself included whom as it stands will have issues next year renewing extensions due to marriage.   The other ones whom mostly I would have thought are not married, so hence just using the extension due to retirement, can not comprehend fully perhaps the impact that this potential train wreck would have on married people, especially those with families.

This lack of understanding, and the frustration of being helpless, and currently that is everybody who use the income based method has manifested itself into what this thread, and another, into the exact opposite of what was initially intended which was to help fellow members.

 

Quite why some of those that are using the 800/400 k Thai bank deposit system, and not the income method  are griping about I have no idea as this thread does not really concern them.   But it is not helpful reading to those of us who will be in  what appears to be a confusing and potentially difficult future situation..

 

Just my thoughts.

[PAWNEESE]

23 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I like the idea of asking other commonwealth embassies to issue the income documents. But that's just a beginning. If one of them is willing, then of course that's another thing Thai immigration would need to be clear about whether they would accept it or not. Isn't there already precedent for that? Don't many nationals not have embassies here and perhaps have agreements with an allied nation to assist them? 

 

 

Another embassy supplying income letters might be a very good earner for that embassy.

 

But if its the Saudi Arabia embassy .. needing to go inside .. I'll give that a miss, thankyou.

Edited October 19, 2018 by PAWNEESE

[Jingthing]

7 minutes ago, PAWNEESE said:

Another embassy supplying income letters might be a very good earner for that embassy.

 

But if its the Saudi Arabia embassy .. I'll give that a miss, thankyou.

Logically I think it would need to be a commonwealth embassy, if this would even be possible and acceptable to TE at all.

They could even try to get a form letter from the British saying, we don't offer this service to our citizens but welcome the assistance of our commonwealth member.

They could also possibly add a fee surcharge to service non-nationals. 

That's a lot of IFs but someone that cares will first have to make inquiries about this both to other embassies and people high up in Thai immigration if there are any nibbles.

Also it's premature. There is still the chance that other embassies might take similar action to the British.  

Edited October 19, 2018 by Jingthing

[JackThompson]

5 hours ago, certacito said:

OK, it is pointless to say what happens in other countries, you may have noticed they have different laws to Thailand.

 

Immigration told the BE that they want the incomes verified, that is why the service has stopped. Statements under oath are not verified and as such would not satisfy what immigration has told the BE they want.

Given other embassies have not reported a problem (this could change) with their stat-dec letters, it is quite possible that TI has told the BE that unless they will make the applicant swear an oath (in lieu of what they do now) then they need to do verification instead. 

 

Perhaps the BE is twisted the facts to hide the (possible) reality that all they would need to do, is provide a sworn-affidavit service like other embassies do, and like they do in other countries nearby.  Note the circular-reasoning they gave for not providing this service, in the response to someone earlier in the thread - "not a service we provide" - OK, why not then? 

 

I find it difficult to believe they cannot hire a person (would only need one) to handle this rudimentary task, for (250 * 50 = 12.5K BP ) / mo + the bonus of living on that sum in low-overhead Thailand?

 

Granted, this is speculation, and perhaps everyone using income-letters in any form will be screwed soon.  But it seems a viable possible explanation, given the apparent agenda of British consular-services to scale-down operations in Thailand.

[Joe Mcseismic]

Immigration accepting letters from other Commonwealth countries? Very unlikely.

Try convincing immigration that a letter from the Kenyan embassy is valid.

[Peterw42]

28 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Logically I think it would need to be a commonwealth embassy, if this would even be possible and acceptable to TE at all.

They could even try to get a form letter from the British saying, we don't offer this service to our citizens but welcome the assistance of our commonwealth member.

They could also possibly add a fee surcharge to service non-nationals. 

That's a lot of IFs but someone that cares will first have to make inquiries about this both to other embassies and people high up in Thai immigration if there are any nibbles.

Also it's premature. There is still the chance that other embassies might take similar action to the British.  

It not such a silly idea, Australia and Canada have reciprocal embassy agreements in lieu of their own embassy not having a presence and I think most commonwealth countries can go to British embassy in lieu. Maybe you could argue in lieu of your consulate providing a certain service.

 

List of diplomatic missions of Australia

Under the terms of the Canada–Australia Consular Services Sharing Agreement, the two countries provide consular services to each other's citizens at a number of locations around the world. At this time, there are 21 cities where Canadians can obtain consular services from Australian offices, and 19 locations where Canadian offices provide consular services to Australians. In an emergency, Australians can also seek assistance from British diplomatic missions around the world in the absence of an Australian consulate or embassy.

[Peterw42]

A note about Australian Statutory declarations, They can be witness by half the population of Australia, a teacher, a doctor, a postman, a bank employee, police officer etc, and it is still the same legal document.

Technically you could present an Australian stat dec to immigration with your signature witnessed by an Optometrist or a consular employee, makes no difference to the document or its legality. And technically you dont need to be an Australian citizen. its a declaration under Australian law.

In theory a Brit could go to the Australian consulate and sign a stat dec, its not uncommon for a brit to do a stat dec in relation to an Australian divorce etc.

[Pib]

 

From looking at the Australian-Canadian agreement and it's accompanying MOU there are very specific things they will do for each other and some things that are a no-go like any type of notarial acts which I expect an income letter fails into.

 

https://travel.gc.ca/assistance/emergency-info/consular/framework/canada-australia

Quote

6) Services which will not be included in this Memorandum of Understanding are the issuance of regular passports or of visas of any kind, legal or notarial acts, assistance in extradition cases, administration of the estates of citizens, registration of deaths, invigilation of examinations and the provision of specific information on any matter other than that pertaining to those consular services set out in paragraph 5.

 

[Pib]

3 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

A note about Australian Statutory declarations, They can be witness by half the population of Australia, a teacher, a doctor, a postman, a bank employee, police officer etc, and it is still the same legal document.

Technically you could present an Australian stat dec to immigration with your signature witnessed by an Optometrist or a consular employee, makes no difference to the document or its legality. And technically you dont need to be an Australian citizen. its a declaration under Australian law.

In theory a Brit could go to the Australian consulate and sign a stat dec, its not uncommon for a brit to do a stat dec in relation to an Australian divorce etc.

But since Thai immigration wants it issued/signed by the person's embassy vs a teacher, doctor, police officer, etc.,  above wouldn't fly for extension of stay purposes.

[Peterw42]

Just now, Pib said:

But since Thai immigration wants it issued/signed by the person's embassy vs a teacher, doctor, police officer, etc.,  above wouldn't fly for extension of stay purposes.

Yes, more a theoretical argument. it does show how crazy the whole thing is though.

[Expattaff1308]

11 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

A note about Australian Statutory declarations, They can be witness by half the population of Australia, a teacher, a doctor, a postman, a bank employee, police officer etc, and it is still the same legal document.

Technically you could present an Australian stat dec to immigration with your signature witnessed by an Optometrist or a consular employee, makes no difference to the document or its legality. And technically you dont need to be an Australian citizen. its a declaration under Australian law.

In theory a Brit could go to the Australian consulate and sign a stat dec, its not uncommon for a brit to do a stat dec in relation to an Australian divorce etc.

Has anyone checked this out?

[Peterw42]

6 minutes ago, Expattaff1308 said:

Has anyone checked this out?

I think people should also look into the equivalent Thai document/affidavit/declaration etc, they must have them and notary public's etc. 

Thats the ridiculous thing about Thai immigration accepting Australian Declarations, its just a "I'm telling the truth" document and the consulate staff are one of fifty people that can witness the declaration. As I said an optometrist can also witness it.

 

[Joe Mcseismic]

Honestly.......do you think anyone in Immigration would even know what the British Commonwealth is, or have even heard of it?

This is serious clutching at straws......

[Jingthing]

Honestly.......do you think anyone in Immigration would even know what the British Commonwealth is, or have even heard of it?
This is serious clutching at straws......

Which is why I suggested that a form letter from the British embassy included might help. But of course that doesn't mean they would be willing to supply it.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[billd766]

5 hours ago, billd766 said:

I just put it on my facebook page.

 

I have looked at my Facebook page and so far 6 of my friends have also signed the petition. My mate sent me the link to that radio interview and I haven't heard so much rubbish in ages.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FevITCQ6s-I&feature=share

 

[billd766]

4 hours ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

Yes, the Thais have changed something. They have told the British Embassy that they want them to VERIFY the claims of income, which the BE cannot do. It is Thai immigration that started all this.

I'm not shooting a messenger. I'm shooting someone who suggested a totally selfish solution to the problem, first choice, or not.

 

Did they tell every other embassy as well and are ALL the embassies following the British embassy path?

[HHTel]

This by an American from another thread which has since been closed.

Quote

Got mine sworn today, the dude at the Window told me that they are aware of what the Brits have said. He told me that the issue of whether or not we would continue to be able to get them is being discussed at the "high levels" and he told me that the issue is verification of income.  Altho he didnt say it outright, he made it seem to me that this is a problem that the Thais are causing. He also told me that all the Western Embassies are involved in these discussions of what to do.

If this is true, then it's not over yet!

[Pattaya46]

4 hours ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

Yes, the Thais have changed something. They have told the British Embassy that they want them to VERIFY the claims of income, which the BE cannot do. It is Thai immigration that started all this.

Lot of rumours and speculation in this thread, so I suppose it will not hurt if I add here another rumour. 

 

According to an English guy at the restaurant with friends today, it's the B.E. who started all that.

They had earlier this year some kind of checking/audit of documents they were producing, and they got a doubt about this letter. So they contacted Thai Immigration to know exactly what they were expected from this letter, and they replied they expected it to show a verified income...

 

[Joe Mcseismic]

18 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

Did they tell every other embassy as well and are ALL the embassies following the British embassy path?

Seems like they only told the British embassy. There are no accounts to the contrary.

Must admit, I find this puzzling. If they did talk to other embassy's and insisted upon actual verification of the proof of income, then, they would have to give the same reply as the BE, that they couldn't do it.

The other embassy's letters are only an assertion that they witnessed a signature from a person that they can guarantee the identity of. Not the same as the BE, so, even if they did speak to other embassy's, they wouldn't have to withdraw the letters.

 

Still......it would be good to know if other embassy's were contacted.

[Joe Mcseismic]

2 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

Lot of rumours and speculation in this thread, so I suppose it will not hurt if I add here another rumour. 

 

According to an English guy at the restaurant with friends today, it's the B.E. who started all that.

They had earlier this year some kind of checking/audit of documents they were producing, and they got a doubt about this letter. So they contacted Thai Immigration to know exactly what they were expected from this letter, and they replied they expected it to show a verified income...

 

That would answer my post below yours.

[Expattaff1308]

read post 1805

 

Edited October 19, 2018 by Expattaff1308

[billd766]

3 hours ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

Seems like they only told the British embassy. There are no accounts to the contrary.

Must admit, I find this puzzling. If they did talk to other embassy's and insisted upon actual verification of the proof of income, then, they would have to give the same reply as the BE, that they couldn't do it.

The other embassy's letters are only an assertion that they witnessed a signature from a person that they can guarantee the identity of. Not the same as the BE, so, even if they did speak to other embassy's, they wouldn't have to withdraw the letters.

 

Still......it would be good to know if other embassy's were contacted.

Thank you.

 

IMHO I think that this problem lies entirely with the British embassy.

[sambum]

6 hours ago, Expattaff1308 said:

read post 1805

 

"read post 1805"

 

Rather difficult! I know this is a popular thread but the most recent post that I can see is Post # 1076!!!

[sambum]

3 hours ago, billd766 said:

Thank you.

 

IMHO I think that this problem lies entirely with the British embassy.

The British Embassy could put things right by adopting the same system that every other Embassy uses (To my knowledge) But I am afraid that would mean a climbdown/loss of face, and also the fact that the BE have just sold their Embassy for 420 million British Pounds means not that they have more money to play with, but that they will no doubt be moving to  smaller premises with less staff, and they have already got rid of the responsibility of supplying new passports to British citizens, so the move to smaller premises means:- "less staff - less time - less jobs to do"

 

Which makes absolute nonsense of the Ambassador's speech in 2017:-   

"I have  outlined my top three priorities in Thailand, which are about promoting a free and open society; building stronger  partnerships for mutual prosperity; and providing top-notch consular and embassy services to all who avail of them.”   Basically, the Proof of Income letter is another job that they are wanting to get rid of, because in order for them to fall in line with the same format as applied by other Embassies, it would involve having to make provision for people requiring a letter to visit the Embassy and sign statements confirming that their statements regarding their income are truthful, and that false declarations could lead to prosecutions - too much work with a reduced work force and not enough storage space for the paperwork required!

[SheungWan]

4 hours ago, sambum said:

The British Embassy could put things right by adopting the same system that every other Embassy uses (To my knowledge) But I am afraid that would mean a climbdown/loss of face, and also the fact that the BE have just sold their Embassy for 420 million British Pounds means not that they have more money to play with, but that they will no doubt be moving to  smaller premises with less staff, and they have already got rid of the responsibility of supplying new passports to British citizens, so the move to smaller premises means:- "less staff - less time - less jobs to do"

 

Which makes absolute nonsense of the Ambassador's speech in 2017:-   

"I have  outlined my top three priorities in Thailand, which are about promoting a free and open society; building stronger  partnerships for mutual prosperity; and providing top-notch consular and embassy services to all who avail of them.”   Basically, the Proof of Income letter is another job that they are wanting to get rid of, because in order for them to fall in line with the same format as applied by other Embassies, it would involve having to make provision for people requiring a letter to visit the Embassy and sign statements confirming that their statements regarding their income are truthful, and that false declarations could lead to prosecutions - too much work with a reduced work force and not enough storage space for the paperwork required!

Doing the same thing as other embassies does not make things right whatsoever. Don't confuse what you want with what is right. Otherwise reductio ad absurdum.

Edited October 19, 2018 by SheungWan

[SheungWan]

9 hours ago, billd766 said:

Thank you.

IMHO I think that this problem lies entirely with the British embassy.

No it doesn't. The problem starts with TI requirements. Otherwise horse before cart.

Edited October 19, 2018 by SheungWan

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, SheungWan said:

Doing the same thing as other embassies does not make things right whatsoever at all.

accuracy is the prerogative of the firing squad 

[SheungWan]

Just now, soalbundy said:

accuracy is the prerogative of the firing squad 

Inability to present logical reasoning from some certainly risks being shot down in flames