Yet more confusion over the removal of Income Certification Letter for British expats

[Kwasaki]

14 hours ago, Robins said:

but it's damn hard to go from no savings to 800,000 Baht it will take me at least a year. 

You must be poor I wish it only took me a year to raise 800,000 baht, in my present circumstances I would be looking at nearly 4 years.

[luckyluke]

Some write here : " No 800.000, better go".

I am here since 2000, transfer an average of 75000 ThB monthly to Thailand, and spend it. 

If I reduce my expenses of 10%, it will take me 9 years to get 800.000.

I am 70! 

[rott]

16 hours ago, Spidey said:

 I know someone who has been doing it for years.

Why has he? What is the point? Retirement is easier all round.

[rott]

10 hours ago, luckyluke said:

However hoping, I doubt that T. I. will change something in their written rules. 

 

It is uncommon that Thais listen to others and change their way of doing.

 

But assuming they do, this will be a chock for the other nationalities.

 

British people will not be very popular anymore as their embassy started this "dullness". 

 

For the benefit of all,  the British Embassy should better retract their decision, the 2 other embassies would certainly follow. 

 

Then all embassies should sit together with T. I. to find a consensus. 

Do not uderstand dullness.

And find little that I can agree with from that point on. Prior to that it was pretty sound.I

And do you really think the USA and Australians are sheep, just following the Brits. I think you are the one who will be unpopular coming out with racist theories like that.

Edited November 14, 2018 by rott

[luckyluke]

You are entitled to your opinion rott, so am I. 

I saw the British Embassy taking a stance, followed by the U. S. A. & Australia, I concluded. 

So in my opinion they will do it again. 

I am a Belgian (Flemish) and 70.

It was mandatory when I was young to learn the 3 national languages of Belgium and then English.

So, sorry my English is very poor, mostly people, with a little good will, understand what I want to express. 

 

[Kwasaki]

1 hour ago, luckyluke said:

Some write here : " No 800.000, better go".

I am here since 2000, transfer an average of 75000 ThB monthly to Thailand, and spend it. 

If I reduce my expenses of 10%, it will take me 9 years to get 800.000.

I am 70! 

I cannot do what you do that is why I went lump sum in bank 2001 but since 2004 have mairrage amount. 

[luckyluke]

To each his own Kwasaki. 

However it will be, in my opinion of course, unfair I will have to leave the country because I don't have these 800.000 but spent a lot more. 

Agents using a "dubious" systen are not a solution for me, old school I presume. 

However I not condenm those who are or will use it. 

Edited November 14, 2018 by luckyluke

[luckyluke]

But of course being Belgian, my embassy and the Austrian Consulate in Pattaya are still issuing documents which, so far, are accepted by T.I..

 

[sambum]

21 hours ago, Robins said:

Sorry to jump in as a newby but I've always looked to Thai Visa when I need a serious answer.

 

I don't think even Immigration knows. Did a 90 day at Pattaya yesterday and tried to ask the person at the retirement desk if there was any acceptable way to prove income other than having an 800,000 balance in the bank.   He seemed to say the bank account is the only method and that no other proof would be accepted, then basically said "it's not until next year, why are you worrying about it now." I don't think he had a clue. (This was one of the younger officers, not the older one whose been doing it for years, my luck he was not there yesterday.)

 

They had the copy of the announcement from the Australian Embassy posted as "News" as if it was their document and it's worded grimly.  

 

Is this as dire as it sounds?  I have a Calpers pension that is twice the requirement but they absolutely will not deposit it in a foreign bank so I've lived by ATM card for 10 years and can show records of those transactions but never bothered with a Thai bank account.  It's going to take me the better part of a year to scrape 800,000 Baht together along with a lot of nights sitting at home instead of going out.

 

Is this as dire as it sounds?  Are they going to kick out people who have been here 10 years and more? \

 

I couldn't sleep last night but did easily open an account this morning at Krung Thai Bank and they seemed to be aware of the requirement and didn't give me any problems opening the account, but it's damn hard to go from no savings to 800,000 Baht it will take me at least a year.  \

 

PS  My dogs, my car, my motorcycles and everything I own is here.  Don't they realize the stress of this uncertainty or do they just not care.

I think the latter!

 

[KhaoYai]

A lot of people seem to be blaming the British Embassy for this problem.  They have simply been asked to officially certify that someone has the required income.  They cannot do that and have had to advise Thai Immigration of that fact.

 

People can argue and blame all they like - they are barking up the wrong tree.  What is required is a statement from Thai Immigration, outlining exactly what they will and will not accept as proof of income. What the British Embassy have done wrong is to state that having the required income in a Thai bank account will satisfy the Thai authorities.  Quite where they have got that from, I know not but such information needs to come from Thai Immigration, not the British Embassy.  However, the British Embassy SHOULD be best placed to press for official Thai guidance as I would hope, the British Ambassador has contacts in the right places.  However, getting them to do anything may not be that easy.

 

The British Embassy in Thailand cannot influence Thai regulations but I believe this should be treated as a consular matter and one in which consular representations should be made to the Thai authorities.

 

I very much doubt that writing to or petitioning the British Embassy will get any movement, they must be fully aware of the situation but don't appear to give a toss.  I would suggest that those Brits affected by this get in touch with the MP of their last UK constituency or and probably better, get in touch with the Foreign & Commonweath Office. As far as I know, they are responsible for embassies abroad and should be able to prod the British Embassy Bangkok into action.

 

Perhaps the best way would be to try and get someone from a UK news agency to publicise the matter which would pressure the UK government or the British Embassy, Bangkok to take action.  The BBC's Jonathan Head lives in Bangkok and may be a good start.

 

I would get your skates on though - there is now less than a month to go before the Embassy stops accepting applications for an income letter.  Perhaps you would be better expending energy in the right area instead of spending hours complaining about the situation on an internet forum?

[Jip99]

9 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

A lot of people seem to be blaming the British Embassy for this problem.  They have simply been asked to officially certify that someone has the required income.  They cannot do that and have had to advise Thai Immigration of that fact.

 

People can argue and blame all they like - they are barking up the wrong tree.  What is required is a statement from Thai Immigration, outlining exactly what they will and will not accept as proof of income. What the British Embassy have done wrong is to state that having the required income in a Thai bank account will satisfy the Thai authorities.  Quite where they have got that from, I know not but such information needs to come from Thai Immigration, not the British Embassy.  However, the British Embassy SHOULD be best placed to press for official Thai guidance as I would hope, the British Ambassador has contacts in the right places.  However, getting them to do anything may not be that easy.

 

The British Embassy in Thailand cannot influence Thai regulations but I believe this should be treated as a consular matter and one in which consular representations should be made to the Thai authorities.

 

I very much doubt that writing to or petitioning the British Embassy will get any movement, they must be fully aware of the situation but don't appear to give a toss.  I would suggest that those Brits affected by this get in touch with the MP of their last UK constituency or and probably better, get in touch with the Foreign & Commonweath Office. As far as I know, they are responsible for embassies abroad and should be able to prod the British Embassy Bangkok into action.

 

Perhaps the best way would be to try and get someone from a UK news agency to publicise the matter which would pressure the UK government or the British Embassy, Bangkok to take action.  The BBC's Jonathan Head lives in Bangkok and may be a good start.

 

I would get your skates on though - there is now less than a month to go before the Embassy stops accepting applications for an income letter.  Perhaps you would be better expending energy in the right area instead of spending hours complaining about the situation on an internet forum?

 

 

 

 

+1

 

 

Nail right on the head.

[AGareth2]

9 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

 

 

+1

 

 

Nail right on the head.

is that Jonathan's?

[Jip99]

16 minutes ago, AGareth2 said:

is that Jonathan's?

 

 

I was thinking more of Knob...... ????

 

 

(maybe the same.........)

[Sheryl]

Sorry to jump in as a newby but I've always looked to Thai Visa when I need a serious answer.
 
I don't think even Immigration knows. Did a 90 day at Pattaya yesterday and tried to ask the person at the retirement desk if there was any acceptable way to prove income other than having an 800,000 balance in the bank.   He seemed to say the bank account is the only method and that no other proof would be accepted, then basically said "it's not until next year, why are you worrying about it now." I don't think he had a clue. (This was one of the younger officers, not the older one whose been doing it for years, my luck he was not there yesterday.)
 
They had the copy of the announcement from the Australian Embassy posted as "News" as if it was their document and it's worded grimly.  
 
Is this as dire as it sounds?  I have a Calpers pension that is twice the requirement but they absolutely will not deposit it in a foreign bank so I've lived by ATM card for 10 years and can show records of those transactions but never bothered with a Thai bank account.  It's going to take me the better part of a year to scrape 800,000 Baht together along with a lot of nights sitting at home instead of going out.
 
Is this as dire as it sounds?  Are they going to kick out people who have been here 10 years and more? \
 
I couldn't sleep last night but did easily open an account this morning at Krung Thai Bank and they seemed to be aware of the requirement and didn't give me any problems opening the account, but it's damn hard to go from no savings to 800,000 Baht it will take me at least a year.  \
 
PS  My dogs, my car, my motorcycles and everything I own is here.  Don't they realize the stress of this uncertainty or do they just not care.

Can you not have your pension deposited into home country account and just transfer money to your Thai account (bank transfer or Transferwise)? Monthly or lump sum 3 months in advance as you prefer?

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Spidey]

5 hours ago, rott said:

Why has he? What is the point? Retirement is easier all round.

Pension income is less than 40k/month. Unable to deposit 400k in Thai bank account for 3 months.

[Spidey]

1 hour ago, KhaoYai said:

A lot of people seem to be blaming the British Embassy for this problem.  They have simply been asked to officially certify that someone has the required income.  They cannot do that and have had to advise Thai Immigration of that fact.

 

People can argue and blame all they like - they are barking up the wrong tree.  What is required is a statement from Thai Immigration, outlining exactly what they will and will not accept as proof of income. What the British Embassy have done wrong is to state that having the required income in a Thai bank account will satisfy the Thai authorities.  Quite where they have got that from, I know not but such information needs to come from Thai Immigration, not the British Embassy.  However, the British Embassy SHOULD be best placed to press for official Thai guidance as I would hope, the British Ambassador has contacts in the right places.  However, getting them to do anything may not be that easy.

 

The British Embassy in Thailand cannot influence Thai regulations but I believe this should be treated as a consular matter and one in which consular representations should be made to the Thai authorities.

 

I very much doubt that writing to or petitioning the British Embassy will get any movement, they must be fully aware of the situation but don't appear to give a toss.  I would suggest that those Brits affected by this get in touch with the MP of their last UK constituency or and probably better, get in touch with the Foreign & Commonweath Office. As far as I know, they are responsible for embassies abroad and should be able to prod the British Embassy Bangkok into action.

 

Perhaps the best way would be to try and get someone from a UK news agency to publicise the matter which would pressure the UK government or the British Embassy, Bangkok to take action.  The BBC's Jonathan Head lives in Bangkok and may be a good start.

 

I would get your skates on though - there is now less than a month to go before the Embassy stops accepting applications for an income letter.  Perhaps you would be better expending energy in the right area instead of spending hours complaining about the situation on an internet forum?

The FCO made the decision to end the embassy letters as a result of an audit. Not the BE's decision. We don't know exactly TI said to the embassies but a number of embassies continue to issue the letters and claim that they will continue to do so. TI hasn't publicly said that they will stop accepting the letters at any time. Fault lies with FCO/B.E. not TI.

Edited November 14, 2018 by Spidey

[lungbing]

I would think that at 52 quid for a simple letter the BE were making a profit.  Why would an auditor stop that? 

[luckyluke]

We may see in the future 2 different desks at Immigration offices :

One with young officers trained to understand the different/complex ways of incomes for Americans, Australian and British citizens. 

Another desk for the rest of the world with older officers who only have to check 2 documents : a bank letter or a letter of income issued by an embassy other than the American, Australian, British one. 

 

Speculation of course. 

 

Edited November 14, 2018 by luckyluke

[steve187]

58 minutes ago, Spidey said:

The FCO made the decision to end the embassy letters as a result of an audit. Not the BE's decision. We don't know exactly TI said to the embassies but a number of embassies continue to issue the letters and claim that they will continue to do so. TI hasn't publicly said that they will stop accepting the letters at any time. Fault lies with FCO/B.E. not TI.

if its the BE fault why are the USA and Australia also stopping

[sambum]

46 minutes ago, steve187 said:

if its the BE fault why are the USA and Australia also stopping

Probably for the same reason - "not verification experts" and therefore unable to verify the income requirement.

[sambum]

3 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

A lot of people seem to be blaming the British Embassy for this problem.  They have simply been asked to officially certify that someone has the required income.  They cannot do that and have had to advise Thai Immigration of that fact.

 

People can argue and blame all they like - they are barking up the wrong tree.  What is required is a statement from Thai Immigration, outlining exactly what they will and will not accept as proof of income. What the British Embassy have done wrong is to state that having the required income in a Thai bank account will satisfy the Thai authorities.  Quite where they have got that from, I know not but such information needs to come from Thai Immigration, not the British Embassy.  However, the British Embassy SHOULD be best placed to press for official Thai guidance as I would hope, the British Ambassador has contacts in the right places.  However, getting them to do anything may not be that easy.

 

The British Embassy in Thailand cannot influence Thai regulations but I believe this should be treated as a consular matter and one in which consular representations should be made to the Thai authorities.

 

I very much doubt that writing to or petitioning the British Embassy will get any movement, they must be fully aware of the situation but don't appear to give a toss.  I would suggest that those Brits affected by this get in touch with the MP of their last UK constituency or and probably better, get in touch with the Foreign & Commonweath Office. As far as I know, they are responsible for embassies abroad and should be able to prod the British Embassy Bangkok into action.

 

Perhaps the best way would be to try and get someone from a UK news agency to publicise the matter which would pressure the UK government or the British Embassy, Bangkok to take action.  The BBC's Jonathan Head lives in Bangkok and may be a good start.

 

I would get your skates on though - there is now less than a month to go before the Embassy stops accepting applications for an income letter.  Perhaps you would be better expending energy in the right area instead of spending hours complaining about the situation on an internet forum?

"What the British Embassy have done wrong is to state that having the required income in a Thai bank account will satisfy the Thai authorities. "

 

That option has always been there - just not a very popular one!

[Robins]

On 11/14/2018 at 6:17 PM, Sheryl said:

Can you not have your pension deposited into home country account and just transfer money to your Thai account (bank transfer or Transferwise)? Monthly or lump sum 3 months in advance as you prefer?

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

I didn't have a Thai bank account until 3 days ago.  Used to just pull money out of my American bank with my ATM card. I'm working on depositing as much as I can in it before my visa renewal in June.  I'm lucky, as a retired cop my pension far exceeds the 65000 Baht they require so I can stash money away and live (not very well) until then.  I figure it will take me about a 18 months to get 800,000 Baht tucked away, a little less if I cheat and max out a credit card for cash withdrawals. 

If this is a good faith effort by Immigration to get rid of the foreign lowlifes, then they should accept pension documents, foreign bank statements showing a year's history of withdrawals at Thai ATM Machines or be flexible in the proof they set.   

Right now, There's no final word on what form of proof of income they will accept.  Having 800,000 Baht in the bank does not prove income and not having it does not prove you don't.  The two factors are only remotely related.  

 

I also admit I'm worried this is really an effort to push people into that Thai Elite Program, the wonderful idea where you pay them a million Baht and don't get it back. At least I get the 800,000 bank deposit back when or if I decide to leave Thailand.  That "Elite" program nonsense is a holdback from the Shinawatra era refuses to collapse. 

Edited November 15, 2018 by Robins

[bigginhill]

On 11/15/2018 at 7:34 PM, Robins said:

I didn't have a Thai bank account until 3 days ago.  Used to just pull money out of my American bank with my ATM card. I'm working on depositing as much as I can in it before my visa renewal in June.  I'm lucky, as a retired cop my pension far exceeds the 65000 Baht they require so I can stash money away and live (not very well) until then.  I figure it will take me about a 18 months to get 800,000 Baht tucked away, a little less if I cheat and max out a credit card for cash withdrawals. 

If this is a good faith effort by Immigration to get rid of the foreign lowlifes, then they should accept pension documents, foreign bank statements showing a year's history of withdrawals at Thai ATM Machines or be flexible in the proof they set.   

Right now, There's no final word on what form of proof of income they will accept.  Having 800,000 Baht in the bank does not prove income and not having it does not prove you don't.  The two factors are only remotely related.  

 

I also admit I'm worried this is really an effort to push people into that Thai Elite Program, the wonderful idea where you pay them a million Baht and don't get it back. At least I get the 800,000 bank deposit back when or if I decide to leave Thailand.  That "Elite" program nonsense is a holdback from the Shinawatra era refuses to collapse. 

You have no need to worry, as far as I can see. 

You have an income of nearly twice the 65,000 monthly, and you say you use the funds directly from the account to which the pension ia credited.

You need to renew in June, you can get a letter from Embassy valid for 6 months, and can go to immigration early.

You can forward the bare necessity of 65,000 monthly and use the rest as you have done in the past.

800,000 is one choice, 65,000 monthly is the same thing.

Correct me if I.m wrong. 

Don,t think you have anything to worry about. 

[Jim1000]

My 800,000 is now in the bank , can anyone save the time of trolling through 99 pages and tell me which bank gives the best one year rate on this amount?

 

I suppose it's too risky to buy a Soi Buakao  beer bar and rely on the monthly  income ? ( only joking )

[New beginnings]

There has been a lot of speculation recently as to the way forward for expatriates wishing to extend there stay following the withdrawal of embassy letters confirming income. I have attached a copy of a letter received from the Office of the Ambassador which, whilst it does not in my opinion, confirm how Thai Immigration will proceed in this matter does make two interesting points.

 

Firstly it specifically refers to the “Order of the Immigration Bureau No 327/2557” Their interpretation is that this does not specifically state that an Embassy letter is required although these have been issued on an informal basis.  Needless to say we will have to wait and see how local immigration offices interpret this change.

 

Secondly it is good to see that they propose to visit key expatriate areas to engage with concerned British Nationals. 

[cleopatra2]

13 minutes ago, New beginnings said:

There has been a lot of speculation recently as to the way forward for expatriates wishing to extend there stay following the withdrawal of embassy letters confirming income. I have attached a copy of a letter received from the Office of the Ambassador which, whilst it does not in my opinion, confirm how Thai Immigration will proceed in this matter does make two interesting points.

 

Firstly it specifically refers to the “Order of the Immigration Bureau No 327/2557” Their interpretation is that this does not specifically state that an Embassy letter is required although these have been issued on an informal basis.  Needless to say we will have to wait and see how local immigration offices interpret this change.

 

Secondly it is good to see that they propose to visit key expatriate areas to engage with concerned British Nationals. 

Not quite sure how to read the statement , That authorities have confirmed the income to be verified and the Thai authorities can do this by sighting money in Thai bank.

 

Is the consulate saying the Thai authorities have confirmed money in Thai bank is verifying for extension purposes.

Or  the consulates interpretation 

[dabhand]

Concerning the BE letter to New beginnings and, in particular, the comment about ensuring that affected customers are made aware of the Income Letter changes.

Yes, updating the various social network sources (including TV and the like) is fine and dandy but even if only one of their 3,000 'affected customers' is not so connected it will be a 100% fail for that individual.

 

Given that the BE has details of the 3,000 (either email or, as a minimum, addresses) why have they not made the effort to make direct contact with every one they know is likely to require this particular service in the future. The BE has had upwards of six months to organise such an info shot and for this not to happen is beyond the pale.

 

It would be absolutely no surprise if reports come through in the early part of next year of a few 'affected customers' being at their wits end because they were not aware of such changes. Particularly the more elderly individuals who are not particularly internet literate and are set up to contact the BE shortly before their extension expires, because that is always how they have done it.

 

Will the BE really care if such an event happens? Will they ****!!

[Kwasaki]

50 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

Not quite sure how to read the statement , That authorities have confirmed the income to be verified and the Thai authorities can do this by sighting money in Thai bank.

 

Is the consulate saying the Thai authorities have confirmed money in Thai bank is verifying for extension purposes.

Or  the consulates interpretation 

As I interpret the letter is the same from beginning of the thread and 99 pages on Thai immigration still have to announce what they will except as proof of earnings, the one and only proof as after the 1st Jan 2019 is the respected 400,000 or 800,000 bht unless persons affected are in possession of the said embassy letter.

As the letter from the British Embassy is valid for 6 months you cannot expect anything being announced or happening from Thai immigration yet unless pigs fly.     

[xylophone]

22 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

As I interpret the letter is the same from beginning of the thread and 99 pages on Thai immigration still have to announce what they will except as proof of earnings, the one and only proof as after the 1st Jan 2019 is the respected 400,000 or 800,000 bht unless persons affected are in possession of the said embassy letter.

As the letter from the British Embassy is valid for 6 months you cannot expect anything being announced or happening from Thai immigration yet unless pigs fly.     

Agree......….Thai immigration still have to announce what they will accept as proof of earnings, the one and only proof as after the 1st Jan 2019 is the respected 400,000 or 800,000 bht unless persons affected are in possession of the said embassy letter.

 

But there are so many posters who do not seem to understand this judging by this thread and many others, and they argue otherwise. IT IS NOT HARD TO UNDERSTAND (this for those in denial/advocating other ways etc).

[Kwasaki]

8 minutes ago, xylophone said:

But there are so many posters who do not seem to understand this judging by this thread and many others, and they argue otherwise. IT IS NOT HARD TO UNDERSTAND (this for those in denial/advocating other ways etc).

Hence the next 99 pages ????