Saudi Arabia admits Khashoggi died in consulate, fires two senior officials

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, Thailand said:

No human rights violations here then so no problem, seriously?

Of course they are obliged to react. Much like reactions from other countries.

 

Reaching for the report button? 

 

The issue of his citizenship pertains to the level of response expected. If you'll notice, most other countries are doing their best to keep out of it, just issuing the usual "expected" statements.

[sanemax]

1 minute ago, Thailand said:

No human rights violations here then so no problem, seriously?

Of course they are obliged to react. Much like reactions from other countries.

 

Reaching for the report button? 

No, as the guy was not a U.S. citizen , the U.S. has no obligation to take any retribution 

Had the guy been a U.S, citizen , the U.S would have to respond , by way of expelling Saudi diplomats , demanding a full enquirery with the killers being bought to justice , sanctions or things of that nature .

  As he wasnt a U.S citizen the U.S can just shrug their shoulders and say "nothing to do with us"

[anon7854]

Actually this seems to be like a perfect "Crime".  Just imagine that the embassies are regarded by law as foreign space so every crime committed on their property space is not really commited in the country they are currently based at but on the foreign country territory.

 

It's incredible isn't it.

 

So If am a English citizen and go to US embassy and get killed there ... UK can kiss US's a s s because under law they can't do anything.  Epic!

 

I'm starting to wonder how many people vanished in embassies.

Edited October 20, 2018 by anon7854

[Nickymaster]

The way is see it. They came with 15 men because they wanted to scare him and take him to SA... and make him disappear there. That is the story that was in MBS's head (plan A). He held on to it for a few weeks hoping that Trump would "believe" him and back him up. Trump tried but the pressure coming from Turkey and the rest of the world was too much. Eventually Khashoggi resisted and things went horribly wrong. Plan B followed..

[Brunolem]

47 minutes ago, anon7854 said:

What damaging information are you talking about? 

Well, it seems clear that Turkey has a complete recording of what happened inside the embassy...sound for sure, video maybe not...

 

They have leaked information collected via this recording little by little.

 

What they have not yet leaked are the results of their investigation inside the embassy...difficult to cut a body in pieces without leaving any trace, especially since the 15 goons were not trying to be discreet.

 

At some point, the issue of the body will have to be addressed...a fist fight is one thing, but it doesn't explain the missing body...and it is possible/likely that Turkey also has information about the body, that it has yet to release...

 

If the 15 goons were followed from their arrival on, they were obviously also followed after leaving the embassy, including and especially those carrying suspicious packages...

[johnmell]

It is obvious Trump wants to sweep this under the carpet, despite the ludicrous Saudi position. He is the friend of brutal dictators now ( Russia, North Korea etc.) And the USA is losing all moral authority.Shame, as i thought at first he was a breath of fresh air.

[connda]

11 hours ago, rooster59 said:

Saudi Arabia admits Khashoggi died in consulate, fires two senior officials

Well then - there you have it!  All's well that ends well 'eh?  So, what's next?  Oh, yes, so King, when should we expect Saudi oil production to be set on 'high' and thanks bunches for the $100 million donation to the USA coffers.  That was very, very nice! 

[sirineou]

58 minutes ago, sanemax said:

No, as the guy was not a U.S. citizen , the U.S. has no obligation to take any retribution 

Had the guy been a U.S, citizen , the U.S would have to respond , by way of expelling Saudi diplomats , demanding a full enquirery with the killers being bought to justice , sanctions or things of that nature .

  As he wasnt a U.S citizen the U.S can just shrug their shoulders and say "nothing to do with us"

You mean. the US has no Legal obligation , but it does have a moral Obligation. 

[Rimmer]

A one line inflammatory post has been removed

[sanemax]

9 minutes ago, sirineou said:

You mean. the US has no Legal obligation , but it does have a moral Obligation. 

I'm not sure whether the U.S would have a legal obligation had the guy been a US Citizen

The U.S doesnt need to have any "moral" obligation either

[candide]

29 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

Well, it seems clear that Turkey has a complete recording of what happened inside the embassy...sound for sure, video maybe not...

 

They have leaked information collected via this recording little by little.

 

What they have not yet leaked are the results of their investigation inside the embassy...difficult to cut a body in pieces without leaving any trace, especially since the 15 goons were not trying to be discreet.

 

At some point, the issue of the body will have to be addressed...a fist fight is one thing, but it doesn't explain the missing body...and it is possible/likely that Turkey also has information about the body, that it has yet to release...

 

If the 15 goons were followed from their arrival on, they were obviously also followed after leaving the embassy, including and especially those carrying suspicious packages...

It may well be that Turkey negotiates some benefit from Saudi Arabia and will never disclose what they really found.

[sirineou]

1 minute ago, sanemax said:

I'm not sure whether the U.S would have a legal obligation had the guy been a US Citizen

The U.S doesnt need to have any "moral" obligation either

All humans have a moral obligation.

The US government represents its citizens  which I assume are humans and as such by extension also has a moral obligation. 

[bristolboy]

9 minutes ago, sanemax said:

I'm not sure whether the U.S would have a legal obligation had the guy been a US Citizen

The U.S doesnt need to have any "moral" obligation either

So the huge amount of effort that Trump put in freeing an American pastor in Turkey was about neither legal nor moral obligation? So what was it about?

[anon7867763]

and the worst part.....Trump says he believes them.

[stevenl]

7 minutes ago, johnsnapo said:

and the worst part.....Trump says he believes them.

Of course, he needs a way out.

[Sydebolle]

I am really really glad that this medieval "Kingdom" of goat shag"*ç%rs, chauvinist bearded fidels are in midst of the United Nations Security Council.

The mind boggles but likewise the Americans will keep kissing backsides (the Royals even being licked) over business. 

This is one very public case while hundreds of less visible cases are taking place - while we speak. Tell those camelists, that they can sip on their own oil and get the US to withdraw everywhere, leave Iran to the Iranians and this will tilt back planet Earth into the pendulum's movement of fairness. Wishful thinking, I know ........... 

[simon43]

Interesting that Turkey apparently had the Saudi consulate bugged for audio and video.

 

I wonder how many other embassies, consulates are also bugged by them.  Perhaps any building where foreigners stay?  (I must remember not to engage in any sheep-sh*gging activites at Instanbul hotels - never know who is watching you).

[stevenl]

37 minutes ago, simon43 said:

Interesting that Turkey apparently had the Saudi consulate bugged for audio and video.

 

I wonder how many other embassies, consulates are also bugged by them.  Perhaps any building where foreigners stay?  (I must remember not to engage in any sheep-sh*gging activites at Instanbul hotels - never know who is watching you).

I heard that claim before, but as far as I can tell the recordings, audio, came from Khashoggi's watch.

[Tug]

Guess this plasuable deniability isent working out so well for the Saudis btw guys this is 2018 not 1618 got to be a bit more carefull about your dirty work dumb ass

[Different]

Khashoggi gave his life for nobel goal, people in countries that criminalize freedom of speech face imprisonment or murder are ought to be backed by US and western values.
So, that the value of freedom of speech is basic human right not just for its citizens but for all people across the world especially countries considered allies to the west. RIP

[Jingthing]

Coverup in progress.

 

As far as "trump" fans are concerned, I can almost understand coming from that immoral space, saying doing the coverup is the smart way to go for "America First" and all that jazz.

But surely there isn't even one conscious person on the planet that actually believes this B.S.?

 

 

Quote

The Saudi explanation for Jamal Khashoggi’s death is a fable. Still Trump plays along.

…
As Mr. Trump surely knows, the new Saudi cover story is contradicted not just by evidence collected by Turkish authorities and by journalists but also by the reporting of the U.S. intelligence community. All point to Mohammed bin Salman as the instigator of a premeditated, cold-blooded and brutal murder, followed by the dismemberment of Mr. Khashoggi’s body. As The Post’s Shane Harris reported, CIA officials have listened to an audio recording in the possession of Turkish officials they say backs up their account that Mr. Khashoggi was murdered minutes after entering the consulate by a team of 15 men. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/the-saudi-explanation-for-jamal-khashoggis-death-is-a-fable-still-trump-plays-along/2018/10/20/1777e3b8-d457-11e8-8c22-fa2ef74bd6d6_story.html

 

 

[Scouse123]

41 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Coverup in progress.

 

As far as "trump" fans are concerned, I can almost understand coming from that immoral space, saying doing the coverup is the smart way to go for "America First" and all that jazz.

But surely there isn't even one conscious person on the planet that actually believes this B.S.?

 

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/the-saudi-explanation-for-jamal-khashoggis-death-is-a-fable-still-trump-plays-along/2018/10/20/1777e3b8-d457-11e8-8c22-fa2ef74bd6d6_story.html

 

 

 

JingThing,

 

Any human being with the capacity to think knows this is a complete sham as we nearly all expected it to be.

 

The Billions of USD in arms sales and siding with the USA on Iran, for their own benefit mind! , takes precedent. Might beats Right, as they say!

 

I do not know what possessed him to enter the Saudi Consulate/Embassy when he knew for the last two years the Saudi prince had him in his sights.

[sirineou]

6 minutes ago, Scouse123 said:

 

JingThing,

 

Any human being with the capacity to think knows this is a complete sham as we nearly all expected it to be.

 

The Billions of USD in arms sales and siding with the USA on Iran, for their own benefit mind! , takes precedent. Might beats Right, as they say!

 

I do not know what possessed him to enter the Saudi Consulate/Embassy when he knew for the last two years the Saudi prince had him in his sights.

First of al might does not make right , if it did then you all need to stop complaining about anything the mighty do.

second , he entered the embassy to obtain a divorce certificate so he could marry his fiance, as he had every right to do, or do you suggest that only saudi citizens who agree with the Saudi government have the right to services from their government?  

 And finally. is Billions of USD your price for your life? IMO for most it is not but for someone with your attitude perhaps.

[alex8912]

1 hour ago, Scouse123 said:

 

JingThing,

 

Any human being with the capacity to think knows this is a complete sham as we nearly all expected it to be.

 

The Billions of USD in arms sales and siding with the USA on Iran, for their own benefit mind! , takes precedent. Might beats Right, as they say!

 

I do not know what possessed him to enter the Saudi Consulate/Embassy when he knew for the last two years the Saudi prince had him in his sights.

I agree with you. The guy posting after you does not. It’s insane that man should enter ANY Saudi embassy anywhere. He is too well known and hated by the Saudis. It’s like  he committed suicide almost ( ok maybe that’s a little Thai mentality ) He should have had a body guard with him at least. Maybe he could have had someone else get this certificate and just sign and notarize something and not even go in.  Having the “ right” to do something is a stupid way to live your life all the time. 

[sirineou]

7 hours ago, sirineou said:

All humans have a moral obligation.

The US government represents its citizens  which I assume are humans and as such by extension also has a moral obligation. 

Someone  reacted with the "confused reaction" at the above post, I wonder which part he/she found confusing,

Was it the part that all humans are or should be moral beings and have a moral obligation,

or was it that the US government represent humans and as such by extension has a moral obligation also?

I hope I should not have to explain the above concept but I would be happy to, 

for a fee.

Edited October 20, 2018 by sirineou
moral obligation to correct typo

[Stargeezr]

Me thinks it is time for the Saudi King to down size the Royal family

by one Prince. Just my opinion of course. Too bad the eggless Pres of USA

did not have an honest opinion like that, but with rich people, money comes

first.

Geezer

[Basil B]

Maybe the King did not know about it, he claims to be a reformist, possibly he is, but surround by ultra conservatives of the old guard dead set against any reform.

 

If so this could be to the kings advantage, could get rid of a few of them behind the tragic goings on in the Istanbul and push through reforms to appease the countries calling for improvements of human rights in the kingdom.

[Scouse123]

2 hours ago, sirineou said:

First of al might does not make right , if it did then you all need to stop complaining about anything the mighty do.

second , he entered the embassy to obtain a divorce certificate so he could marry his fiance, as he had every right to do, or do you suggest that only saudi citizens who agree with the Saudi government have the right to services from their government?  

 And finally. is Billions of USD your price for your life? IMO for most it is not but for someone with your attitude perhaps.

 

First, I did not say Might makes Right. I said........ Might beats Right........ That is a sad fact of the world we live in that because you are right, you still can not win when others have the power whether that be in military support, financial, government backing, judiciary, etc.

 

Second. He knew he was hated and despised, it was the fact that he had known he was on a blacklist for making statements in newspapers which were not going down well in Saudi Arabia.

 

As a Saudi citizen and previously, a man with Royal connections, he knew full well the types of revenge acts the regime was capable of, as he was previously an adviser to the Royal court! He was he convinced, he gave his fiancee a number to contact if he didn't return.

 

You then attempt to imply that I was saying only Saudi citizens that agreed with the Saudi leadership had the right of services. I did not say that and It was not stated in my post. you presumed that is what I meant, and jumped to conclusions.

 

Third. You have attempted to completely twist what I said regards the US contract with Saudi Arabia for weapons and arms which the general public know amounts to billions of dollars. President Trump had already lined up his ducks in a row and stated there may be ' rogue elements at work ' without knowledge of the Saudi leadership. He also probably knew they were behind it and were lying as he had received reports from US intelligence agencies.

 

We all know that is a feeble excuse and Trump knows nobody believes it. However, as far as he is concerned, these multi-billion dollar contracts and US employment, as well as their main ally in the Gulf region and a country that shares US worries and concerns regards Iran and its ambitions and hates the Iranians. Ac shared goal to put it bluntly.

 

This takes precedent as far as US policy is concerned that a solitary Saudi journalist. That is a fact of life, whether you like it or not.

 

I am speaking as to how it is being viewed by the US government. I did not say it was the right thing to do.

 

If you are going to enclose copies of my posts, then please at least read them properly first, before going off at a tangent and stating things as fact, when I have not said such things in my post. You have arrived at a number of incorrect conclusions by misquoting or misreading what I actually stated.

 

Edited October 20, 2018 by Scouse123

[sirineou]

7 minutes ago, Scouse123 said:

 

First, I did not say Might makes Right. I said........ Might beats Right........ That is a sad fact of the world we live in that because you are right, you still can not win when others have the power whether that be in military support, financial, government backing, judiciary, etc.

 

Second. He knew he was hated and despised, it was the fact that he had known he was on a blacklist for making statements in newspapers which were not going down well in Saudi Arabia.

 

As a Saudi citizen and previously, a man with Royal connections, he knew full well the types of revenge acts the regime was capable of, as he was previously an adviser to the Royal court! He was he convinced, he gave his fiancee a number to contact if he didn't return.

 

You then attempt to imply that I was saying only Saudi citizens that agreed with the Saudi leadership had the right of services. I did not say that and It was not stated in my post. you presumed that is what I meant, and jumped to conclusions.

 

Third. You have attempted to completely twist what I said regards the US contract with Saudi Arabia for weapons and arms which the general public know amounts to billions of dollars. President Trump had already lined up his ducks in a row and stated there may be ' rogue elements at work ' without knowledge of the Saudi leadership. He also probably knew they were behind it and were lying as he had received reports from US intelligence agencies.

 

We all know that is a feeble excuse and Trump knows nobody believes it. However, as far as he is concerned, these multi-billion dollar contracts and US employment, as well as their main ally in the Gulf region and a country that shares US worries and concerns regards Iran and its ambitions and hates the Iranians.

 

This takes a higher position as far as US policy is concerned that a solitary Saudi journalist. That is a fact of life, whether you like it or not.

 

I am speaking as to how it is being viewed by the US government. I did not say it was the right thing to do.

 

If you are going to enclose copies of my posts, then please at least read them properly first, before going off at a tangent and stating things as fact, when I have not said such things in my post. You have arrived at a number of incorrect conclusions by misquoting or misreading what I actually stated.

 

 I agree with you first point, I misquoted you and I am sorry, 

You did say Might beats right  rather than "might makes right" .

I blame it to my speed trading rather than the fact that I can , have being and most likely be again a jerk but I hope a lovable one LOL.

As far as your second point , He needed the divorce certificate to marry , and as far as I know the Saudis are not in the habit of murdering   journalists so  he should not be suspicious that they would murder him. He called the embassy and they told him that the certificate was not ready, then they called him and told him that it was ready at the same day that a saudi team arrived in Turkey , IMO a coordinated operation by the Saudis.

I don't think blaming the victim is a viable  argument , especially since the victim had no other choice other than not marrying the woman he loved, and no reason to think they will murder him in his own embassy at a foreign country.

 

As to your third point ,  this not a done deal, not by a long shot, This is not American policy it might be Trump's policy, but Trump is not America, he is the head of the executive branch of government but there is also a legislative and a  judicial branch, and then  there is the fourth estate .

There are legal and  political considerations that would Trump (pun intended) Trump's policy. This is not an issue of "solitary Saudi journalist. " this is an issue of the dissemination of free ideas around the world ,and the moral standing of America , what litle remains of it. 

   No my friend not done by a long shot, look at all the cancellations to the Saudi economic conference,  comments by Lindsey Graham, And Saudi coverup attempts who know this is not over because Trump spoke. 

 But as much as I disagree with you on these points, I must say you made your  points eloquently, politely and to the point , which suggest a level of sophistication in your thinking that I appreciate. I promise to read your replies more carefully in the future. 

 

[Morch]

12 hours ago, simon43 said:

Interesting that Turkey apparently had the Saudi consulate bugged for audio and video.

 

I wonder how many other embassies, consulates are also bugged by them.  Perhaps any building where foreigners stay?  (I must remember not to engage in any sheep-sh*gging activites at Instanbul hotels - never know who is watching you).

 

I think it is generally accepted that diplomatic missions come under surveillance. Some more, some less, as relates to relevant countries. In the usual course of things, this is done in a covert, unobtrusive way, and everyone can pretend it isn't there. But still, entering diplomatic missions of more security-minded countries, or those (rightly) feeling they might be targeted entails restrictions on certain items and equipment being carried in. Means of communication are similarly divided between those considered "safe" and those which aren't. Some facilities would have a "clean" room/zone as well, which is, supposedly, better protected from surveillance. 

 

On the other side of the coin, some embassies are used as centers for information gathering. What with grounds generally being off-limits to local authorities.