Just Received Some Bad News For US Citizens. No More Income Affidavits.

[Jingthing]

Speaking with a friend today, he confirmed that he has a friend who has always used this method of proof of income. He has never used the Embassy Affidavit. Typically when presented a bank passbook, immigration requires that it be freshly updated and accompanied by a letter from the bank. I think the real issue here is whether it is going to have to show transfer from abroad or whether it will be sufficient to pull 65,000 from your US bank and then deposit it right back into your Thai account. If the cash deposit is insufficient income, it is considerably more expensive to do a bank transfer from abroad. The Police Order only specifies proof of income, not what you do with it, so maybe it's not even necessary to move the entire 65,000 into Thailand.

Sounds like he has been using the bank method not the income method. The bank method has never required an embassy letter!

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[david555]

2 minutes ago, AmericanSafety said:

Looks like a ton of condos and homes going to up for sale. Way to think things through.

  I need only one ….but on fire sale and a front beach road one ????

[JackThompson]

5 minutes ago, AmericanSafety said:

Looks like a ton of condos and homes going to up for sale. Way to think things through.

Immigration don't get brown-envelopes for condo sales, and recent policies don't seem focused on the well-being rest of the citizenry.  But on the flipside, many expats may move here now who don't have 65K Baht/mo income, and wouldn't risk prison with the "felony income-document" letter, but who can figure out how to send money in and out to satisfy the new proposed standard.  There could be more expats renting condos than ever, depending on how the new rules are set-up.

[totally thaied up]

36 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

This turn of events has gotten many people of limited means thinking and worrying about their financial situation here.

 

If you are one of these, I would like to add for your consideration:

 

(1)  don't limit your focus to just the immigration requirements. Consider also that the cost of living in Thailand has increased substantially in the past 10 years or so and will almost certainly continue to do so. Even if this does not lead eventually to raising the required income for retirement (and it may) it will certainly affect whether you can make ends meet. What you can live on today is not hat you can live on 10 years from now.

 

(2) You will almost certainly have significant medical expenses sooner or later. Thai hospitals will not treat you for free. Even in  government hospital it can cost as much as 1 million or more for a single hospitalization if you need prolonged ICU care and multiple specialized surgeries. And it is not as simple as just dying if you don't have the money (as some claim to be their plan). You face living with unnecessary disability and severe pain if you cannot afford the care you need. You face dying in horrific pain for lack of simple pain killers . Lying in your own filth because you can't afford a caretaker or nursing home. etec etc. I say this because, a few Veterans aside, most of the people with incomes below the threshold have neither health insurance nor sufficient savings to be considered self-insured.

 

I have seen some really horrific situations here resulting from this, ones that led to distance relatives back home having to be tracked down and persuaded (much to their outrage at times) to help pay for the repatriation of someone who could not pay for their care here. Lanna Care has been involved in many such repatriations as well - too many. And believe me, when it goes down like that, you don't leave with your dignity intact.

 

So please, think carefully and realistically abut your situation, and factor into your thinking not just present day costs and Immigration requirements but future costs and contingencies like illness as well.  Ask yourself if you are you really, truly situated such that you can provide for yourself in Thailand - in sickness or health, fit or disabled, independent or needing live in help or a residential facility - for the rest of your life, understanding that costs of doing so will likely continue to steadily rise?

 

If you cannot honestly answer yes, it will be far easier to make a well planned exit -  whether to a less expensive foreign country or back to your country of nationality - than to wait until things have become unmanageable.

 

 

 

 

Great and very sensible post.

 

What do you see for those of us that can afford to pay till 75 insurance but from that point on, not be insured due to age? How much per year would you need to have health care here if we need care? I think even with the 800K a year Immigration is telling us we need, it may not be enough. Maybe you could be kind enough to do another post outlining this in another thread not to dislodge this topic as this information is very important for many to base decisions.

 

Thank you again for a great post. I do have a home to go back to, but without my wife, if she could not immigrate with me, life for me would be very unhappy and harsh. For some I do know here, they have no home at all to go too. You have bought something very important to light.

[HAL9000]

Note this is a change of policy, not a change of law. The only thing that has changed is the policy on what is acceptable evidence of income. Therefore all three options in the Police Order 777 still remain for extension of visa - money in the bank, income, or a combination of income and bank balance. The only question that remains now is what evidence of income is acceptable. Immigration generally doesn't like foreign document in English, but they may decide to accept them. Traditionally Thai bank books with an accompanying bank letter have been accepted. What is unclear at the moment is whether a monthly cash deposit will suffice or whether it has to be a foreign transfer. I used to use the free ACH transfer to the New York branch of Bangkok Bank until I went into a Thai branch and asked why the exchange rate was so poor. They said that the regular SWIFT fee was being deducted from my transfer before showing as available in my account in Thailand!

 

A consensus here expects a lot of people on retirement extensions to switch to marriage extensions. This is ironic because immigration offices have been switching people with marriage extensions to retirement in order to reduce their workload. Now the new policy will mean a lot of paperwork from people submitting marriage extensions!

[quandow]

8 hours ago, Sheryl said:

I can understand the dilemma of not having 800K, that's different. But someone well off enough that they make significant  income off of investments not wanting to use the 800K method because of what would in fact be a pretty small loss of interest income, I do nto find credible.

 

This is exactly my problem. My government pension more than qualifies for the $65k/year, and I own a house back in the states free and clear worth about $250k for which I receive an additional $1200/month in rental income, but coming up with 800,000 baht means taking out a loan. I thought I was done with that nonsense.  Has anyone heard of ANY document immigration will accept for income verification?

[elviajero]

3 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

You wrote, " As I advised in another thread, Immigration are discussing how to deal with this problem."

If you want a link to an official announcement there isn’t one. I got the information from a contact at CW immigration.

[Sheryl]

1 hour ago, Notagain said:

The BSA and its implementing regulation require financial institutions to submit a variety of reports to the authorised US regulator or law enforcement agency. Upon filing such reports, the financial institutions must maintain records of these reports for five years. These reports include:

• SARs: financial institutions must file a SAR for actual or attempted transactions involving or aggregating at least US$2,000, for money services businesses, and at least US$5,000 for non-MSBs, and where the institution ‘knows, suspects, or has reason to suspect’ that the transaction (or attempted transaction):
• involves funds derived from illegal activity;
• is intended or conducted in order to hide or disguise funds or assets derived from illegal activity, or to disguise the ownership, nature, source, location or control of illegally derived funds;
• is designed, whether through structuring or some other means, to evade any requirement of the BSA or its implementing regulations; or
• serves no business or apparent lawful purpose, or is not the sort in which the particular customer would normally be expected to engage, and the institution knows of no reasonable explanation for the transaction after examining the available facts, including the background and possible purpose of the transaction.
• CTRs: financial institution must file a CTR for each deposit, withdrawal, exchange of currency, or other payment or transfer by, through or to a financial institution, which involves a transaction in currency of more than US$10,000 - in some instances, multiple currency transactions must be treated as a single transaction.
• Designation of Exempt Person form: this form may be filed by a financial institution to designate an exempt customer for purposes of CTR reporting.
• US Customs Form 4790 Report of International Transportation of Currency or Monetary Instruments: this report is filed for a person who physically transports, mails or ships or causes to be transported, mailed, shipped or received, any currency or monetary instruments in an aggregate amount exceeding US$10,000 into or out of the US.
• Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts: this report must be filed annually to the IRS by persons, including financial institutions, subject to US jurisdiction and having an interest in, signature or other authority over one or more bank, securities or other financial accounts in a foreign country must file if the aggregate value of such accounts at any point in a calendar year exceeds US$10,000.

I guess have got away with it so far without question.

No, they simply would have filed the CTR, a very routine matter, and not filed an SAR because they did nor consider my transfers to be suspicious and why should they?

 

I was transferring money from my own bank account in the US to my own bank account in Thailand where I live. Which they know, as my bank mailing address is my Thai address.  A person living abroad transferring a comparatively modest amount of money to their foreign bank account.  How is that in any way suspicious? It is totally consistent with being a retiree living abroad.

 

SAR is not required unless the financial institution considers the transaction suspicious. 

[david555]

1 hour ago, blackhorse said:

Immigration is propping up the banks and the economy now
Men in black are propping up the baht
Money launderes are propping up the real estate sector
TAT are propping up tourism

The total nonsense never stops. You would have thought this house of cards would have collapsed 50 years ago

t is declining , not much but steady going down 

http://www2.bot.or.th/statistics/BOTWEBSTAT.aspx?reportID=80&language=ENG

 

[Sheryl]

9 minutes ago, quandow said:

This is exactly my problem. My government pension more than qualifies for the $65k/year, and I own a house back in the states free and clear worth about $250k for which I receive an additional $1200/month in rental income, but coming up with 800,000 baht means taking out a loan. I thought I was done with that nonsense.  Has anyone heard of ANY document immigration will accept for income verification?

You don't need to transfer 800K if you have 65k/mo pension. You may need to start transferring the 65K/mo here but that remains unconfirmed.  We are still waiting for details from Immigration as to what documentation they will accept in place of Embassy letters.

 

Unconfirmed reports (including the 2 Embassy websites) suggest that bank statements and possibly Bank letter showing transfer of the required income will suffice. Whether they would accept foeign bank statements/ATM slips etc (for those who do not transfer the money into Thailand or transfer only part of it) is unknown.

 

Bear in mind there are still 9 months to go before alternate documentation would be needed since Embassy letters will still be issued through the end of 2018 and are valid for 6 months. People who do not have the required funds do need to start worrying/planning now as it may take that long to deal with it,  but for someone in your situation with more than the minimum required income, no reason that I can see to worry now.

[HHTel]

6 hours ago, Mac98 said:

Not sure why the embassy can't document a retirees Social Security income. We each have the government statement showing monthly and annual income, and it could accompany a bank printout showing it going into your account. That would cover most applicants. The ones getting their money from some dead cousin's trust would follow the new rules. 

The British equivalent is not a sworn affidavit but a letter confirming the documents they have seen.  In my case, I submitted 1 years bank statements (each transfer in is accompanied on the statement by who transferred it), along with letters from my pension companies and a copy of the UK P60 which shows tax paid in the UK.

The problem with this is that none of that is verification.  I see the same problem with any embassy.  They can confirm the evidence, but that's all it is.  It's not verification.

[Sheryl]

58 minutes ago, totally thaied up said:

Great and very sensible post.

 

What do you see for those of us that can afford to pay till 75 insurance but from that point on, not be insured due to age? How much per year would you need to have health care here if we need care? I think even with the 800K a year Immigration is telling us we need, it may not be enough. Maybe you could be kind enough to do another post outlining this in another thread not to dislodge this topic as this information is very important for many to base decisions.

 

Thank you again for a great post. I do have a home to go back to, but without my wife, if she could not immigrate with me, life for me would be very unhappy and harsh. For some I do know here, they have no home at all to go too. You have bought something very important to light.

here are many insurance policies that will cover for life. If your present policy cuts you off at 75, change policies while you still can.

 

Premiums will go with age, of course, but so will the likelihood that you have to use the insurance (which is precisely why the premiums go up.)

 

Minumum insurance needed if it is per event (per hospitlization or accident) is: 1 million baht if you will use only government hospitals, 3-5 million if you want the option of using private. If the amount is per year, 2-3 times as much (as you could have more than 1 event in a year). Expat policies issued by companies in Western countries nearly always provide more than enough cover, typical USD500k to 1 million. And these are usually preferrable to policies from Thai companies for older people, as Thai companies are allowed to raise premiums if your health worsens or you have large claims, effectively pricing you out even if they do offer lifetime renewal. .

 

If you are going to self insure, you need the same amounts set aside easily accessible plus the ability to replenish it as spent. Not too many people have that capacity and if one does, it may make more sense to purchase health insurance to protect those assets, unless serious pre-exisitng conditions prevent you from getting insured.

 

 

[HHTel]

4 hours ago, jimn said:

Not wishing to gloat and say "I told you so". But those US citizens who thought that it was only the BE who had made this decision are now proved wrong. It is now clear that there is a change in policy by TI who have informally told the embassy's about a change in policy without at this time issuing a new police order. I fully expect all the other embassy's now to follow. It will then be up to TI to reissue the police order detailing what evidence will be accepted for the income method or if the income method is being scrapped altogether. Open house for agents then on the 400k/800k method. One thing I am concerned about is the current income letter/stat dec currently being honoured at 6 months old. Many people myself included will get mine in November for April, but I would not be supprised if they moved the goalposts on this as well.

I've just read several stories responding to the 6 months validity.  3 immigration offices at least have stated they will not accept embassy letters older than 6 weeks.  Personally, I seem to remember in Hua Hin, the validity was one month from the date of the letter but that is from memory and I may be wrong.

[Pattaya46]

9 minutes ago, HHTel said:

// I see the same problem with any embassy.  They can confirm the evidence, but that's all it is.  It's not verification.

I have read that tens of times this week, but that seems wrong to me.

I don't know how that works for other countries, but I am from France and every year I receive a Tax Notice that show the revenues I declared and the taxes I had to pay.

Any person who get a copy of this document can "verify" it from Internet: There is a Tax Service link on the document, and also 2 codes you have to enter on the form; it will then show you the original document generated by the Tax Service. So it's easy to verify my yearly revenues.

I would be very surprised that only my country uses such simple system... 

 

[gunderhill]

10 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

I have read that tens of times this week, but that seems wrong to me.

I don't know how that works for other countries, but I am from France and every year I receive a Tax Notice that show the revenues I declared and the taxes I had to pay.

Any person who get a copy of this document can "verify" it from Internet: There is a Tax Service link on the document, and also 2 codes you have to enter on the form; it will then show you the original document generated by the Tax Service. So it's easy to verify my yearly revenues.

I would be very surprised that only my country uses such simple system... 

 

and  its  all  in Thai is it?

[blackhorse]

Yes you would have thought so but with the amounts of money the gov injects into the banking system and other parts of the economy it hasnt yet. You really dont have a clue who owns everything here and who pays for it all do you ?

Where are these thousands of billions of baht coming from? You have no clue what your talking about!

[Pattaya46]

16 minutes ago, gunderhill said:

and  its  all  in Thai is it?

What for? We are speaking of letter by embassies. Nobody in your embassy that speak your home language? 

[Jimdandy]

Sounds like Thailand is trying to clean up it's overstay act all around and at the same time stuff its coffers with more money. The good and the bad of it. I wonder what the ugly will look like?

[cyberfarang]

To me the message is clear. Thai immigration are saying they want an embassy confirmation letter plus documents proving source of income. The British and American embassies, although I`ve no doubts all the other embassies will soon be discontinuing the letter service, are saying, we are no longer providing the letter service, so it`s a catch 22 situation that leaves the only other option of money in a Thai bank. This is how I interpret the situation.

 

The government are clamping down on the corrupt agencies that are presently able to pull strings for visa extension applicants, but soon that option will also be gone.

 

I can see that in the future visa applicants will be borrowing money to obtain their visas at Thai immigration that will lead to us all having to prove our sources of income with more hurdles to jump over each year. So in the end we all pay the price.

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, HHTel said:

I've just read several stories responding to the 6 months validity.  3 immigration offices at least have stated they will not accept embassy letters older than 6 weeks.  Personally, I seem to remember in Hua Hin, the validity was one month from the date of the letter but that is from memory and I may be wrong.

There have definitely been reports over the years of immigration offices not accepting letters older than x weeks/months even though TIB's own guidance says 6 months.

[gunderhill]

39 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

What for? We are speaking of letter by embassies. Nobody in your embassy that speak your home language? 

Dunno never been there.

[gunderhill]

12 minutes ago, elviajero said:

There have definitely been reports over the years of immigration offices not accepting letters older than x weeks/months even though TIB's own guidance says 6 months.

And herein lies the MAIN problem with EVERYTHING here.

[elviajero]

6 hours ago, Thaidream said:

6 hours ago, elviajero said:

I was referring to letters obtained before January being accepted after January, which IMO is not certain.

Letters issued in 2018 will be accepted for 6 months to date of application- confirmed by embassy and Thai Imm- per Embassy web site Many offices  allow 45 days in advance of extension end to apply for new extension.  This takes us to end of June 2019 and possibly a little longer. In the past the letter was also valid for 6 months.

I know what the current rules are, but where is it stated by immigration that after Jan 1st they will continue to accept letters (in the old format) that do not confirm the embassy has validated the income?

 

 

[elviajero]

6 hours ago, watgate said:

I am only up to page 21 so if someone has already answered my question my apologies. Say,at some point I want to say adios to Thailand and want to withdraw my 800k thai baht to take back to the US. Can you convert the 800k  thai baht back to usd or will you be hard pressed to find an exchange place willing or able to convert that much thai baht into usd? If you have to take 800k thai baht back to the US does anyone know if you will take a big hit in the conversion from thai baht back to usd? I realize one can get a thai atm card which you can use to withdraw funds from your  thai bank acct while in another country so maybe that would be the rest way to go.  Any comments or info is appreciated.

Of course you could convert it to USD. The bank you have the account with would no doubt do it.

You always take a hit when converting currency.

[CelticTam]

The French embassy in Vientiane has informed French citizens of the same change for Lao PDR, so it seems something is afoot.

 

[blackhorse]

I know what the current rules are, but where is it stated by immigration that after Jan 1st they will continue to accept letters (in the old format) that do not confirm the embassy has validated the income?

 

 

Wrong question. Your looking at it backwards

The fact they havnt announced anything means nothing has changed

They are totally excepting income letters.. It's the brits and the USA that are the ONLY 2 EMBASSIES that pulled the pin

 

For the rest it's business as usual

 

Nothing changed at TI !!

 

[onera1961]

6 hours ago, david555 said:

I have 10 years Thai bank and never had any problem with them , I think most of those who talk different can not do the 800 000 (is no shame  but don't blame it on Thai banks..) do this of not loosing face maybe ….too long time   in Thailand ? 

This is not true. I do believe many can do bit don't want to do. For me, it will be O-A visa every two years. I will gladly show my funds in the US. Though I am no sure how long I can continue, but I even don't report 90-day as I leave the country before 90-day is due to avoid spending a day in CW for 90-day reporting. I can go to a nearby country (even to Europe/USA sometimes), spend a few days and come back. In the first 10 months of my O-A visa, I am in/out of Thailand 9 times. 

Edited October 26, 2018 by onera1961

[elviajero]

4 minutes ago, blackhorse said:

Wrong question. Your looking at it backwards

The fact they havnt announced anything means nothing has changed

They are totally excepting income letters.. It's the brits and the USA that are the ONLY 2 EMBASSIES that pulled the pin

 

For the rest it's business as usual

 

Nothing changed at TI !!

Immigration have told all embassies that the letters after Jan 1st must confirm they’ve validated the income, which the British and US embassies are refusing to do. Others will follow. And if they don’t issues letters validating the income I don’t see immigration accepting them.

 

Had the embassies complied immigration wouldn’t have anything to announce, but now they have a problem and I don’t expect an announcement until they’ve decided what to do.

[blackhorse]

Immigration have told all embassies that the letters after Jan 1st must confirm they’ve validated the income, which the British and US embassies are refusing to do. Others will follow. And if they don’t issues letters validating the income I don’t see immigration accepting them.
 
Had the embassies complied immigration wouldn’t have anything to announce, but now they have a problem and I don’t expect an announcement until they’ve decided what to do.

You don't know for a fact that all embassies were told. You couldn't know!

It's more than a coincidence that the 2 biggest western embassies were targeted

Where are the rest.. The Canadians, Germans, the ozzies who have recently made an announcement on there website they WILL NOT be changing there stat dec system

These are the facts for now. Unless your crystal ball tells you otherwise [emoji5]

[ukrules]

Just now, blackhorse said:

Where are the rest.. The Canadians, Germans, the ozzies who have recently made an announcement on there website they WILL NOT be changing there stat dec system

The US confirmed nothing was changing just last week.....????