Just Received Some Bad News For US Citizens. No More Income Affidavits.

[Jingthing]

On a good note, aren't there some Thai banks that actually give pretty good interest rates on savings? If that's the case, I'll just move 25,000USD to one of those accounts and get better interest on my money anyway. Or I would think having a Foreign currency account might also be smart, especially if they offer a decent interest rate on the money. The money just has to be in a Thai bank from what I understand.
 
Although it would be a lot better if I didn't have to move the money here. I wonder if they would just except seeing bank statements from USA banks?

No they won't at this time. Don't count on that!

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[blackhorse]

Because every Embassy is in the same position.
Thai Immigration want the Embassies to 'verify' the income being declared.
Other than 'state pensions' paid by the Government they cannot 'verify' income from private institutions.
Your statement, as in an 'affidavit' or 'stat dec' does not 'verify' your income.
 

You don't know the actual wording. It's not like TI will storm an embassy demanding an audit.
If an embassy feels its legally in the clear it will continue the same process.

It's more than a coincidence that the 2 biggest western embassies have been targeted.

Where are the others? Where they even contacted?

Nobody knows for certain
We do know that nothing is ever evenly uniform in Thailand

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, elviajero said:

The 65K/800K requirement is higher than needed to live on and is simply set at the level to control numbers. The lower the number the more expats they get.

... and the less foreign-capital is spent here.  I tend to think you are right as far as their attitude - although the agent-money factor quickly changes their attitude.  But I don't find a rationale for a "fewer expats" policy other than illogical xenophobia. 

 

I can see some justification for a reasonable min-income (no beggars), or even health insurance - but I don't get the point of intentionally reducing "free" and "no-strings" foreign-capital injections. 

 

"Free money" beats the heck out of IMF/World-Bank loans, and what those (deleted) jerks will do to you, once they have you over a barrel.  We expats have the power to complain on a forum or leave, and that's about it.

 

25 minutes ago, Puwa said:

...

An alternative could be for the government to introduce a new mandatory insurance product covering accident, emergency, some basic health care, and repatriation if it becomes necessary for medical or financial reasons. Keeping a certain amount of money on deposit in Thailand lowers your premium. ...

Agree, but remove all the "lowers your premium" stuff except for a deductible (backed with a "health ins-acct") for longer-stayers who want it.  Make it really simple and keep the cost as low as possible by making ever foreigner buy it, and can only use it at govt-hospitals. Those who want premium care at private-hospitals pay with their own money or use other insurance. 

 

Everyone who enters the country on a new-entry (not re-entry permit) or goes to get an extension-of-stay shows they bought it, or buys it on-the-spot (no-deductible rate) to cover their new permitted-stay.  The goal being only to provide a "last resort" method of ensuring a foreigner does not "cost" Thais any money, ever. 

 

25 minutes ago, Puwa said:

Renew annually to renew visa. Insurance card becomes your government-issued ID. Throw in some perks, like local rates for national parks. ID expires, no visa extension til it renews. Immigration wouldn't have to look at financial statements at all, and could focus on entry and exit and illegal employment. They'd still make money off visas, exit permits, overstays etc.

Agreed on all this.  This is really the only "potential liability" expats have here (no welfare), so cover that, and forget auditing people's private money-matters. 

The big question is, is elviajero correct, that they really just don't want many of us here, and these artificial-barriers are only to that end?

And/or my own perception, which is that this change is to force more foreigners to use agent-avenues that fund corruption?

[mogandave]

Explain please?

 

Buy an annuity in your home country and have the “payments “ deposited into your Thai account.

 

Or just have it deposited in your home country account...

[Sheryl]

37 minutes ago, JimmyJ said:

 

This implies sending one's funds back to the US after the 3 months.

 

Sending 25k out from a US bank and then sending it back after 3 months seems that with many if not all banks will entail questions.

Perhaps not the first time but if repeated annually I would be surprised if not future hassles with the bank.

 

How would one explain it?

"I live in Thailand, and need it there for 3 months for my retirement visa".

 

"You live in Thailand? We only accept customers living in the US. Account closed."

 

There are some banks apparently which will not close an account for this but many will.

 

How would you handle it?

You've mentioned you've never had a problem sending the funds in and out, but then you mentioned you keep your funds in Thai banks.

I can't imagine a US bank asking these questions. I transfer money in and out of my US accounts often. Never been asked anything of the sort.

 

You are best advised though to bank with an institution that not only does nto mind (actually I don't think any do) but is used to having clients living abroad (the second part, only some).

 

As for Thai banks, they will ask only the source of the money you are transferring out (and depending on amount, may ask to see proof that it came from abroad) and purpose of the transfer, a simple "family expenses" will suffice.

 

Nobody is going to even remotely connect the prior transfer in with the transfer out of a lower amount 3 months later. Nor do they care.

 

[gunderhill]

2 hours ago, david555 said:

yes normally they do, did in past …. anyway the double I could still handle , but the original poster..29 minutes ago, blinkers said: .( Those with 800,000 in the bank shouldn't be too smug, the amount is quite likely to go up again.) to who I replied forget that than also the monthly income would be put up higher ????

I only do the 400k (married) could do double but don't want to.

[Sheryl]

10 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Without an embassy letter both the US and UK embassies are saying 65k monthly import will be accepted. Thai immigrant has announced no such official change of accepting that without a letter. Certainly nothing about accepting foreign account statements without embassy letter. People that can still get embassy letters will still have no import requirement. No word as well on the combo method without letter but the combo method stands with the letter.

TBD!

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

It would surprise me very, very much if Immigration accepts documentation of income from sources in a language other than Thai much less bank statements that may be in a format unfamiliar to them.

[Puwa]

14 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Agreed on all this.  This is really the only "potential liability" expats have here (no welfare), so cover that, and forget auditing people's private money-matters. 

 

Yes this is the heart of the matter, isn't it? Good points about keeping it simple. I see the agents as a local opportunists, not part of some national plot. 

[JackThompson]

13 minutes ago, watgate said:

Two issues come to mind. First off,if one has to transfer into their thai bank acct 65k each month, aren't they going to be hit with monthly wire fees and bank fees which can add  up. Secondly, what about going the tourist visa as a former poster suggested in a previous posting. He said " If I have to I'll go the METV route or SETV plus runs. I'm just trying to minimize the hassle and giving me the chance to come and go as I please over a full year".  Are tourist visas still practical for stays of 6 months or longer or has immigration cracked down on them?

TR Visas for 6 mo-year is no problem in perpetuity, provided you do not Fly In (especially Bangkok) or enter at the Poipet land-crossing.  Only those "problem" entry-points currently give any trouble to those with valid TR Visas upon entry.  This could all change tomorrow, of course - but only 2 entries per-year (to get to 6-mo) is very unlikely to give you a problem - even at the Bangkok airports - especially if you only fly-in after being gone for 6-mo, then get your next one at a nearby-consulate and enter by a friendly land-border (Vientiane for the Visa and cross to Nong-Khai on return is a good choice), then fly home.

The METV can only be purchased by "shipping yourself" back to your passport-country to present paperwork, and some consulates (not all) want "proof of your ongoing job" to give you one.  If your country has a more reasonable consulate, this is the best "tourist" type option.  SETVs, on the other hand, can be obtained fairly easily at nearby consulates or one's passport-country consulate.  Each gives 60-days, and can be extended by 30 days more in-country - so total 2 of these for your 6 mo per-year.

 

But, since you are talking about retirement (65K/mo), you could also show 800K worth of money "in the bank" or the 65K income at your passport-country consulate (money does NOT need to be in Thailand), plus a police and medical report, and get a Non-OA Visa with that.  This gives 1-year permitted-stay per-entry.  You can stretch this for almost 2 yrs by an "out/in" just before it expires.

[anon2736434]

 

10 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

I can't imagine a US bank asking these questions. I transfer money in and out of my US accounts often. Never been asked anything of the sort.

Any US bank transaction over 10,000 usd requires paperwork to declare where it came from due to money laundering laws, has been that way for many years. Not sure you how your bank is doing it unless it is under the 10K amount.

[Jingthing]

It would surprise me very, very much if Immigration accepts documentation of income from sources in a language other than Thai much less bank statements that may be in a format unfamiliar to them.

Yes but I'm even talking about foreign financial statements in English. At this time there is no rational reason to assume they will accept them for those doing income application without letter.

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[Russell17au]

5 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

It would surprise me very, very much if Immigration accepts documentation of income from sources in a language other than Thai much less bank statements that may be in a format unfamiliar to them.

Remember Sheryl that all the forms that we fill in are filled in, in English and all the income affidavits/Stat Decs/ Income letters have always been in English so any documents that will verify your income would naturally be in English and the immigration officers can read English but I agree with you about the bank statements being a different matter because every bank has its own format for statements

[anon2736434]

I personally think the economy and banking system is in such bad shape contrary to what the current gov. claims this is just a way to shore them up by getting 800K or 400K baht from many many foreigners on the books.

[Mansell]

I think this latest move will force many people here without the correct funds to stay here illegally or leave. And the illegals will create a big problem for the Thai government as they will have to find them to deport them. It should be pretty easy to know that people are not doing their ninety day reports or renewing their extensions. So they have actually created their own problem, when Falang who didn't have the money just got the embassy letter and were living here just fine, but now they are being forced into a bad situation. It sounds like it wasn't thought through about all the ramifications. Surprise.

[HAL9000]

3 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

3 hours ago, RCS said:

Has it been verified by Thai Immigration that presenting a Thai bank book showing average deposits greater than 65K per month for the past year satisfies the proof of income requirement?   They would all be wired from overseas and then spent in drips and drabs during the month.   

3 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

The simple answer is no.

Speaking with a friend today, he confirmed that he has a friend who has always used this method of proof of income. He has never used the Embassy Affidavit. Typically when presented a bank passbook, immigration requires that it be freshly updated and accompanied by a letter from the bank. I think the real issue here is whether it is going to have to show transfer from abroad or whether it will be sufficient to pull 65,000 from your US bank and then deposit it right back into your Thai account. If the cash deposit is insufficient income, it is considerably more expensive to do a bank transfer from abroad. The Police Order only specifies proof of income, not what you do with it, so maybe it's not even necessary to move the entire 65,000 into Thailand.

Edited October 26, 2018 by HAL9000

[gunderhill]

1 hour ago, Puwa said:

 

The government's mistake here is seeking a banking solution to what is essentially an insurance problem. It boils down to risk, real or perceived, that indigent foreigners will drain public resources.

 

An alternative could be for the government to introduce a new mandatory insurance product covering accident, emergency, some basic health care, and repatriation if it becomes necessary for medical or financial reasons. Keeping a certain amount of money on deposit in Thailand lowers your premium. Proving legit income to your Thai bank lowers your premium. Clean living lowers your premium. Holding verified, applicable health insurance lowers your premium. Owning property lowers your premium. Actuaries know how to figure out the risk factors, premiums, and payouts. Use the market to strike a balance between government oversight (or overreach) and individual responsibility (and irresponsibility). 

 

Renew annually to renew visa. Insurance card becomes your government-issued ID. Throw in some perks, like local rates for national parks. ID expires, no visa extension til it renews. Immigration wouldn't have to look at financial statements at all, and could focus on entry and exit and illegal employment. They'd still make money off visas, exit permits, overstays etc.

 

What would you be willing to pay annually for something like that?

From a  Thai company 00000000000000000000.0 baht

Id  also like the option "leave to die" and sign a disclaimer

Edited October 26, 2018 by gunderhill

[Sheryl]

This turn of events has gotten many people of limited means thinking and worrying about their financial situation here.

 

If you are one of these, I would like to add for your consideration:

 

(1)  don't limit your focus to just the immigration requirements. Consider also that the cost of living in Thailand has increased substantially in the past 10 years or so and will almost certainly continue to do so. Even if this does not lead eventually to raising the required income for retirement (and it may) it will certainly affect whether you can make ends meet. What you can live on today is not hat you can live on 10 years from now.

 

(2) You will almost certainly have significant medical expenses sooner or later. Thai hospitals will not treat you for free. Even in  government hospital it can cost as much as 1 million or more for a single hospitalization if you need prolonged ICU care and multiple specialized surgeries. And it is not as simple as just dying if you don't have the money (as some claim to be their plan). You face living with unnecessary disability and severe pain if you cannot afford the care you need. You face dying in horrific pain for lack of simple pain killers . Lying in your own filth because you can't afford a caretaker or nursing home. etec etc. I say this because, a few Veterans aside, most of the people with incomes below the threshold have neither health insurance nor sufficient savings to be considered self-insured.

 

I have seen some really horrific situations here resulting from this, ones that led to distance relatives back home having to be tracked down and persuaded (much to their outrage at times) to help pay for the repatriation of someone who could not pay for their care here. Lanna Care has been involved in many such repatriations as well - too many. And believe me, when it goes down like that, you don't leave with your dignity intact.

 

So please, think carefully and realistically abut your situation, and factor into your thinking not just present day costs and Immigration requirements but future costs and contingencies like illness as well.  Ask yourself if you are you really, truly situated such that you can provide for yourself in Thailand - in sickness or health, fit or disabled, independent or needing live in help or a residential facility - for the rest of your life, understanding that costs of doing so will likely continue to steadily rise?

 

If you cannot honestly answer yes, it will be far easier to make a well planned exit -  whether to a less expensive foreign country or back to your country of nationality - than to wait until things have become unmanageable.

 

 

 

 

[JackThompson]

10 minutes ago, Notagain said:

Any US bank transaction over 10,000 usd requires paperwork to declare where it came from due to money laundering laws, has been that way for many years. Not sure you how your bank is doing it unless it is under the 10K amount.

65K Baht = ~$2000 USD per-mo - well below the limit.  Meeting this requirement should not trigger a money-laundering audit.  Sending an un-spent part back, so as to include it in the next $2000 should not be a big deal either. 

If asked, one could probably tell their bank straight-up that the activity is to conform with Thailand's new (expletive) policy on min-xfers to qualify for an extension-of-stay.   Send them a printout of the "new rules" from the USA Consulate website, if they ask for more. 

[david555]

7 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

This turn of events has gotten many people of limited means thinking and worrying about their financial situation here.

 

If you are one of these, I would like to add for your consideration:

 

(1)  don't limit your focus to just the immigration requirements. Consider also that the cost of living in Thailand has increased substantially in the past 10 years or so and will almost certainly continue to do so. Even if this does not lead eventually to raising the required income for retirement (and it may) it will certainly affect whether you can make ends meet. What you can live on today is not hat you can live on 10 years from now.

 

(2) You will almost certainly have significant medical expenses sooner or later. Thai hospitals will not treat you for free. Even in  government hospital it can cost as much as 1 million or more for a single hospitalization if you need prolonged ICU care and multiple specialized surgeries. And it is not as simple as just dying if you don't have the money (as some claim to be their plan). You face living with unnecessary disability and severe pain if you cannot afford the care you need. You face dying in horrific pain for lack of simple pain killers . Lying in your own filth because you can't afford a caretaker or nursing home. etec etc. I say this because, a few Veterans aside, most of the people with incomes below the threshold have neither health insurance nor sufficient savings to be considered self-insured.

 

I have seen some really horrific situations here resulting from this, ones that led to distance relatives back home having to be tracked down and persuaded (much to their outrage at times) to help pay for the repatriation of someone who could not pay for their care here. Lanna Care has been involved in many such repatriations as well - too many. And believe me, when it goes down like that, you don't leave with your dignity intact.

 

So please, think carefully and realistically abut your situation, and factor into your thinking not just present day costs and Immigration requirements but future costs and contingencies like illness as well.  Ask yourself if you are you really, truly situated such that you can provide for yourself in Thailand - in sickness or health, fit or disabled, independent or needing live in help or a residential facility - for the rest of your life, understanding that costs of doing so will likely continue to steadily rise?

 

If you cannot honestly answer yes, it will be far easier to make a well planned exit -  whether to a less expensive foreign country or back to your country of nationality - than to wait until things have become unmanageable.

 

 

 

 

And that is why I am happy to have Axa expat with repatriation option  dead or alive or funeral or cremation paid if done in Thailand .

On top of this considering that Thailand does not have euthanasia option as my E.U country has ..

Even I have no problem for health or for the Ret. Extension with bank money

Edited October 26, 2018 by david555

[Sheryl]

16 minutes ago, Notagain said:

 

Any US bank transaction over 10,000 usd requires paperwork to declare where it came from due to money laundering laws, has been that way for many years. Not sure you how your bank is doing it unless it is under the 10K amount.

I transfer more than 10,0000 from a  US bank every single year and have done for the past 11 years straight. I have never been asked where it came from. They know where it came from, it came from my US bank account.

 

I also transfer amounts that large between different US accounts (same bank and different banks) and likewise never been asked a thing.

 

I don't know what regulation you refer to but if it exists I suspect it has to do with funds newly entering the bank system, not existing money in the bank.

[JackThompson]

16 minutes ago, HAL9000 said:

Speaking with a friend today, he confirmed that he has a friend who has always used this method of proof of income. He has never used the Embassy Affidavit. Typically when presented a bank passbook, immigration requires that it be freshly updated and accompanied by a letter from the bank...

Are you sure they were not showing 800K (400K if married to a Thai) in the bank?  This sounds like the "money-in-the-bank" method - not the "income" method.

Edited October 26, 2018 by JackThompson

[Sheryl]

49 minutes ago, garyk said:

I am interested in knowing what the Thai banks are paying out also.

What are the rates?

Very low.

https://www.bot.or.th/english/statistics/_layouts/application/interest_rate/in_rate.aspx

 

[drtreelove]

I think it's good news.  Now we can get real with verifiable documentation.

 

And we are not locked in to paying $50 a pop for a notary stamp on a bogus form without substance. Who in the world would trust human beings to raise their right hand and swear to tell the truth. Even those sworn to lead the country and make it great again and uphold the rule of law don't do that if its inconvenient or against their personal interests.  

 

I just worry about the hit to the Embassy income and how they will pay for that expensive real estate on Wireless.  But I guess they'll figure out another way. Expat tax? 

[Sheryl]

11 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

I transfer more than 10,0000 from a  US bank every single year and have done for the past 11 years straight. I have never been asked where it came from. They know where it came from, it came from my US bank account.

 

I also transfer amounts that large between different US accounts (same bank and different banks) and likewise never been asked a thing.

 

I don't know what regulation you refer to but if it exists I suspect it has to do with funds newly entering the bank system, not existing money in the bank.

OK I think i found what you mean. But it is only a reporting requirement for the Bank:

 

"Currency Transaction Report

While you can make large transfers depending on your bank’s policy, the bank must report wire transfers over $3,000 and any transaction over $10,000. These Currency Transaction Reports (CTRs) are filled out, usually electronically, by the bank and forwarded to the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCen). Failure to fill out this report can result in regulatory action, including fines and sanctions, against the bank. The bank is responsible for filling out the report, but it does not have to inform the customer unless he or she requires such information. There is no illegality in making a large transfer as long as a CTR is properly submitted."

https://budgeting.thenest.com/us-bank-transfer-limits-32363.html

 

My banks will have made this report I'm sure. But they did not need to ask me a thing to do so. And from the sounds of it they do hundreds if not thousands of these reports every day....and FinCen must receive hundreds of thousands of them annually.  They aren't  likley  to be worried about 4-5 figure transfers in and out of personal accounts.

 

 

[jimn]

Its good to see that the 200 odd pages of nonsence currently on the threads regarding the British Embassy decision are being recycled on this thread. Its quite laughable really lol

[anon2736434]

10 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

I transfer more than 10,0000 from a  US bank every single year and have done for the past 11 years straight. I have never been asked where it came from. They know where it came from, it came from my US bank account.

The BSA and its implementing regulation require financial institutions to submit a variety of reports to the authorised US regulator or law enforcement agency. Upon filing such reports, the financial institutions must maintain records of these reports for five years. These reports include:

• SARs: financial institutions must file a SAR for actual or attempted transactions involving or aggregating at least US$2,000, for money services businesses, and at least US$5,000 for non-MSBs, and where the institution ‘knows, suspects, or has reason to suspect’ that the transaction (or attempted transaction):
• involves funds derived from illegal activity;
• is intended or conducted in order to hide or disguise funds or assets derived from illegal activity, or to disguise the ownership, nature, source, location or control of illegally derived funds;
• is designed, whether through structuring or some other means, to evade any requirement of the BSA or its implementing regulations; or
• serves no business or apparent lawful purpose, or is not the sort in which the particular customer would normally be expected to engage, and the institution knows of no reasonable explanation for the transaction after examining the available facts, including the background and possible purpose of the transaction.
• CTRs: financial institution must file a CTR for each deposit, withdrawal, exchange of currency, or other payment or transfer by, through or to a financial institution, which involves a transaction in currency of more than US$10,000 - in some instances, multiple currency transactions must be treated as a single transaction.
• Designation of Exempt Person form: this form may be filed by a financial institution to designate an exempt customer for purposes of CTR reporting.
• US Customs Form 4790 Report of International Transportation of Currency or Monetary Instruments: this report is filed for a person who physically transports, mails or ships or causes to be transported, mailed, shipped or received, any currency or monetary instruments in an aggregate amount exceeding US$10,000 into or out of the US.
• Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts: this report must be filed annually to the IRS by persons, including financial institutions, subject to US jurisdiction and having an interest in, signature or other authority over one or more bank, securities or other financial accounts in a foreign country must file if the aggregate value of such accounts at any point in a calendar year exceeds US$10,000.

I guess have got away with it so far without question.

[david555]

7 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Very low.

https://www.bot.or.th/english/statistics/_layouts/application/interest_rate/in_rate.aspx

 

In Europe my bank (and others) give only 0.10% on simple deposit and banks must pay if they like to park money by Gov National bank...????

[blackhorse]

I personally think the economy and banking system is in such bad shape contrary to what the current gov. claims this is just a way to shore them up by getting 800K or 400K baht from many many foreigners on the books.

Immigration is propping up the banks and the economy now
Men in black are propping up the baht
Money launderes are propping up the real estate sector
TAT are propping up tourism

The total nonsense never stops. You would have thought this house of cards would have collapsed 50 years ago

[anon2736434]

3 minutes ago, blackhorse said:

The total nonsense never stops. You would have thought this house of cards would have collapsed 50 years ago

Yes you would have thought so but with the amounts of money the gov injects into the banking system and other parts of the economy it hasnt yet. You really dont have a clue who owns everything here and who pays for it all do you ?

[JackThompson]

16 minutes ago, drtreelove said:

I just worry about the hit to the Embassy income and how they will pay for that expensive real estate on Wireless.  But I guess they'll figure out another way. Expat tax? 

Should be an uptick in "affirmation of freedom to marry" docs to cover part of the shortfall.  But those also cite an income-figure, so not sure how those will fare.