Just Received Some Bad News For US Citizens. No More Income Affidavits.

[Maestro]

15 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

You are referring to unrealized capital gains yes?

Once you sell, I believe the net gain is taxable.

 

For me, profit from the sale of investment securities (shares, fund certificates, etc) is money earned; it is income. Whether or not this type of income needs to be declared as income in the annual tax return depends on the law of the land.

[Mike Teavee]

3 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

As I understand it (at least in the the US) capital gains are taxed as income, just at a different rate.

They have to be included as income on a US tax return, yes?

 

You may well be right for the purpose of US Tax Returns, but as the name implies Capital Gains is a one-time profit that you make on selling an Asset.  Once sold, you no longer own that Asset so it cannot provide you with an income so how could it be used to prove your income?

 

it's irrelevant for this topic anyway as the US Embassy doesn't care (and certainly won't after 31st December) & Thai Immigration wouldn't understand it.

 

[Mike Teavee]

4 minutes ago, Maestro said:

For me, profit from the sale of investment securities (shares, fund certificates, etc) is money earned; it is income. Whether or not this type of income needs to be declared as income in the annual tax return depends on the law of the land.

Have to confess I've never looked at it like that, but my thinking is probably clouded from the UK system where any Capital Gains is distinct from Income [very important for people who are Non-UK Resident for Tax purposes as they don't pay Capital Gains tax, as the BM who started this thread fork also stated that he didn't].

 

Anyway, per post above, it's irrelevant... I accept was mistaken when it comes to the US (& we are in a US thread ????) so let's move on ????

 

[Maestro]

15 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

No... I'm referring to the fact that Capital Gains are not Income hence any Tax to be paid is "Capital Gains Tax" not "Income Tax".

 

Whether Thai Immigration accept this as proof of income is another thing, but really it's no different than selling any other asset (House, Car etc...) 

 

There are two types of capital gains: realised capital gain and unrealised capital gains. From your latest post it is now clear that you mean realised capital gains.

 

In Switzerland, where I currently am resident for tax purposes, the tax declaration form has no line for "capital gains". Depending on the circumstances, my realised capital gains either must or  need not be declared as income. There is a separate line for income from investment on the form.

[Maestro]

11 hours ago, elviajero said:

Retirement extensions are meant for people that don't work (retired). There's a clue in the name...

 

 

Gainful employment outside Thailand does not disqualify a foreigner from applying for and being granted a one-year extension of stay of stay under clause 2.22 of Police Order 327/2557

[JLCrab]

This is from the US Consulate - Chiang Mai website:

 

"As of October 26, 2018, U.S. citizens can verify they meet the income requirements for retiree visas directly with Royal Thai Immigration by providing a local bank statement indicating a minimum deposit of 800,000 Thai Baht or evidence of having an income of at least 65,000 Thai Baht per month. Applicants should refer to the above-referenced websites for specifics regarding the timing and conditions associated with these deposits."

https://th.usembassy.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/90/faq_income_affidavit.pdf

 

As for anything further from the wonderful folks at Thai IMM, stay tuned.

 

[Maestro]

5 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

This is from the US Consulate - Chiang Mai website:

 

"As of October 26, 2018, U.S. citizens can verify they meet the income requirements for retiree visas directly with Royal Thai Immigration by providing a local bank statement indicating a minimum deposit of 800,000 Thai Baht or evidence of having an income of at least 65,000 Thai Baht per month. Applicants should refer to the above-referenced websites for specifics regarding the timing and conditions associated with these deposits."

https://th.usembassy.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/90/faq_income_affidavit.pdf

 

As for anything further from the wonderful folks at Thai IMM, stay tuned.

 

Are the "above-referenced websites" websites of the immigration bureau?

[JLCrab]

10 minutes ago, Maestro said:

Are the "above-referenced websites" websites of the immigration bureau?

https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_22

 

http://thaiembdc.org/visas/

[Thaidream]

7 hours ago, jimn said:

hink its you who has lost all credibility. I believe you when you said you lost money in 2008 but it had nothing to do with the baht being devalued. 1997 was the Asian banking crisis 2008 was the run on the banks in the US and the UK amoungst others. I seem to remember the thai baht being quite stable and gained in strength against said currencies.

Just to set the record straight- I never said I lost money in 2008. The discussion was about events which may or may not affect people's lives and situations. History often repeats itself.  When you are around as long as I have been- you experience  a lot of History and circumstances.  There is an election in 2019- the Thai currency may gain value or lose value- I don't have a crystal ball. I could tell you what I think- but I will not- 

 

[marcusarelus]

2 hours ago, John7777 said:

800,000 in a Thai bank.  That’s not really much of a problem, is it?  I think what bothers people is the seemingly continual moving of the goal posts. Today the rules are one thing, but next year?  What about the year after that?  

I have been here for 20 years and the goalposts are the same.  You put your money in the bank and get the letter from the bank once a year and give it to immigration and they give me a visa extension.  I haven't seen any corruption  to speak of.  The banks have been fine.  I have met some nuts in pubs here so I stopped going and listening to that chicken little stuff.  The sky is always falling for some people and some people have been predicting bad things every year for the 20 years I've been here when you know them it's because some women done them wrong.  What's new.

[marcusarelus]

13 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Just to set the record straight- I never said I lost money in 2008. The discussion was about events which may or may not affect people's lives and situations. History often repeats itself.  When you are around as long as I have been- you experience  a lot of History and circumstances.  There is an election in 2019- the Thai currency may gain value or lose value- I don't have a crystal ball. I could tell you what I think- but I will not- 

 

Just to set the record straight you wrote, " I have been coming to Thailand for almost 50 years- the Baht had been pretty stable from the early 70s to 1997- so there was no idea that  there would be a huge devaluation. Once in a lifetime-  there was a Great Depression; there was the Baht devaluation; then in 2008 the whole  World  economy almost imploded."  

 

You gave three examples of the baht loosing ground against the dollar of which two were incorrect.  The dollar and pound have sunk against the baht for the past 20 years and there is no evidence to suggest it doing otherwise in the future.  Anyone who has put 800,000 in a Thai bank for the last 20 years has made money on interest and currency rate appreciation. 

[Joe Mcseismic]

11 hours ago, DogNo1 said:

When I was a recruit in the US Army, my drill instructor, whom I remember well, had a colorful phrase that he used when he chided us not to assume anything.  So I don't. I will follow any newly issued instructions from the Thai government regarding the proof of retirement income amounting to the equivalent of 65,000 baht or more per month; however, in the absence of new instructions, Immigration cannot reasonably expect me to present an affidavit of income, nor to have had 800,000 in a Thai bank for three months nor to have 65,000 per month deposited in a Thai bank after January 1, 2019.  It seems likely that immigration will continue to accept the same proof of income that they have been accepting all along and that is, in my case, evidence of the required amount being deposited into my foreign checking account on a monthly basis.

Christ on a bike! How many times do you have to be told?

Immigration NEVER accepted your "proof of income". They accepted the US embassy letter.

[Thaidream]

2 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

ou gave three examples of the baht loosing ground against the dollar of which two were incorrect.  The dollar and pound have sunk against the baht for the past 20 years and there is no evidence to suggest it doing otherwise in the future.  Anyone who has put 800,000 in a Thai bank for the last 20 years has made money on interest and currency rate appreciation. 

If that's what you read and understood- that's Ok with me.  I lost money on the Baht devaluation in 1997- I did not lose money in 2008  or at any other time. If you want to keep  money in a Thai bank- that is your decision..... I have other ideas on where I want to keep my own money...and that is my decision...  I am quite content in walking down to the ATM and getting  what I need from the ATM. In the future-  I may decide to bring some money in to Thailand again.  Arguing about things like this is  of no value. Everyone lives their life as they want to...  Have a good day.

[hwaetu Go]

So, what does this mean to those who actually have monthly income coming in from income abroad (example rentals (not retirement pension) totaling the monthly 65K baht figure afore necessary? 

[JLCrab]

17 minutes ago, hwaetu Go said:

So, what does this mean to those who actually have monthly income coming in from income abroad (example rentals (not retirement pension) totaling the monthly 65K baht figure afore necessary? 

I will just say that the general consensus on here -- though totally unofficial -- is that the 65K baht per month 'evidence' for retirement extension as in the current Police Order will be preserved via a direct transfer from your US bank to your Thai bank such that such deposit is noted via letter code as an ex-Thai transfer in your Thai bank account passbook.

[Mike Teavee]

16 minutes ago, hwaetu Go said:

So, what does this mean to those who actually have monthly income coming in from income abroad (example rentals (not retirement pension) totaling the monthly 65K baht figure afore necessary? 

To save you reading the previous 111 pages...

• In short, nobody knows for sure yet
• Both the British & US Embassies have said that you'll be able to use proof of deposits into a Thai Bank account, the source & frequency requirements for these are not known yet
• Both Embassies will issue Certificate of Income up to the end of the year (For British Embassy you need to get your request in by 12th December) & Thai Immigration have said they will accept them up to 6 months after issue date.

So if you're planning on using the income method & your renewal is due before the end of July (Mid August in some places) it would be prudent to get your Income letter this year (obviously being mindful of the 6 month validity period, don't get it now if you're renewal is due after 1st June) otherwise make whatever contingency plans you feel are appropriate for you to mitigate against the risk of not being able to use proof of income.

 

Or just ignore it & deal with things when the time comes... 

 

[Pib]

1 hour ago, Mike Teavee said:

Or just ignore it & deal with things when the time comes... 

And sadly this is what some people will do instead developing a Plan B now.  

[jimn]

2 hours ago, Thaidream said:

If that's what you read and understood- that's Ok with me.  I lost money on the Baht devaluation in 1997- I did not lose money in 2008  or at any other time. If you want to keep  money in a Thai bank- that is your decision..... I have other ideas on where I want to keep my own money...and that is my decision...  I am quite content in walking down to the ATM and getting  what I need from the ATM. In the future-  I may decide to bring some money in to Thailand again.  Arguing about things like this is  of no value. Everyone lives their life as they want to...  Have a good day.

Well Marcusarelus and myself understood your post to mean that you lost money in 2008 due to the devaluation of the baht. Obviously we were wrong, but your post was not clear on that. Just an observation why on earth do you choose to withdraw money from the atm which I presume is from your overseas bank account and pay 220 baht each time for the priviledge of doing so. If you insist on withdrawing money from an overseas account at least go inside the bank and make an over the counter withdrawal which are free.

[marcusarelus]

2 hours ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

Christ on a bike! How many times do you have to be told?

Immigration NEVER accepted your "proof of income". They accepted the US embassy letter.

Now the BE and American embassy say Thai will accept our proof of income.  Have you been told that before?

[marcusarelus]

2 hours ago, JLCrab said:

I will just say that the general consensus on here -- though totally unofficial -- is that the 65K baht per month 'evidence' for retirement extension as in the current Police Order will be preserved via a direct transfer from your US bank to your Thai bank such that such deposit is noted via letter code as an ex-Thai transfer in your Thai bank account passbook.

That's what the BE and American embassy are saying.

[pontious]

6 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

That's what the BE and American embassy are saying.

But TI  have not said it.

[marcusarelus]

2 hours ago, Thaidream said:

If that's what you read and understood- that's Ok with me.  I lost money on the Baht devaluation in 1997- I did not lose money in 2008  or at any other time. If you want to keep  money in a Thai bank- that is your decision..... I have other ideas on where I want to keep my own money...and that is my decision...  I am quite content in walking down to the ATM and getting  what I need from the ATM. In the future-  I may decide to bring some money in to Thailand again.  Arguing about things like this is  of no value. Everyone lives their life as they want to...  Have a good day.

It's not what I choose to believe or not believe it's what you wrote,

 

"I have been coming to Thailand for almost 50 years- the Baht had been pretty stable from the early 70s to 1997- so there was no idea that  there would be a huge devaluation. Once in a lifetime-  there was a Great Depression; there was the Baht devaluation; then in 2008 the whole  World  economy almost imploded."  

 

You are trying to scare people away from putting money in a Thai bank and posted three examples of what you thought were bad times for the baht but you were only right about one of them. 

 

Admit you were wrong about 2/3 of your post and move on.  You're bluff didn't work. 

 

[marcusarelus]

2 minutes ago, pontious said:

But TI i have not said it.

Yes that's what we are discussing.  Will Thailand go back on what they said to the USA and BE? 

[JimmyJ]

31 minutes ago, jimn said:

 Just an observation why on earth do you choose to withdraw money from the atm which I presume is from your overseas bank account and pay 220 baht each time for the priviledge of doing so. If you insist on withdrawing money from an overseas account at least go inside the bank and make an over the counter withdrawal which are free.

I don't know if this is the case with him, but some US ATM cards do not charge foreign ATM fees and reimburse if the foreign bank charges an ATM fee.

 

Some Asian banks do not charge ATM fees when one withdraws with a US ATM card - at least HSBC and Maybank in Malaysia don't.

[Joe Mcseismic]

42 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Now the BE and American embassy say Thai will accept our proof of income.  Have you been told that before?

They have both stated putting money in a Thai bank and using the bank letter. Extending the 800k method to a monthly method. Sounds reasonable. Nice and simple for TI without creating more work.

[Peterw42]

50 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

That's what the BE and American embassy are saying.

UK an US embassies could say a note from your mum is acceptable, until TI says it, the statements mean nothing.

[HAL9000]

On 10/28/2018 at 11:35 PM, JackThompson said:

(also @fforest1)

 

And I agree it is a huge mistake - similar to another time in history with another regional power - and likely a similar end - but perhaps without the US blocking the retribution (which the UK wanted), next time.

That's interesting. What was the event that provoked the UK into wanting retribution?

[Pattaya46]

16 hours ago, Pattaya46 said:

Expats from China, Japan & India also sometimes use an Embassy Letter to stay here,

and they are many more than expats of UK & USA.

 

11 hours ago, HHTel said:

The difference is the percentage of expats from those countries who come here to retire or are married to a Thai.

By a large majority, the Chinese come for study, investment etc.

Are you sure it's (very) different for farangs ?

French embassy statistics says that average age of French expats in Thailand is (only) 40.5 yo

so clearly there is not a majority of them on retirement and in fact many are here working.

[marcusarelus]

13 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

UK an US embassies could say a note from your mum is acceptable, until TI says it, the statements mean nothing.

Your statements mean nothing.  Embassies statements are the statements of the respective governments and carry the weight of America and the UK.  Quite a bit different.  Just to put things in perspective. 

[HAL9000]

On 10/29/2018 at 2:45 AM, DogNo1 said:

SnakeBite:  The most recent three months of my American bank statements have been accepted at Chaeng Wattana for the past ten years.  Unless the proof of income requirements are changed, you should be OK just presenting them.

I went to Chiang Rai immigration today to show my American bank statement, Social Security income certification letter, and screenshot of the OPM benefit page. They said they will not accept them and if I still want to use the income method, I have to show the money in a Thai bank.