Just Received Some Bad News For US Citizens. No More Income Affidavits.

[Mike Teavee]

23 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

What you are doing is the correct way to proceed. People seem to be waiting for some sort of formal notice from immigration. The formal notice has already been issued by the respective embassy's after the conclusion of meetings with immigration. I have not been through the fine detail of the US and Australian directive but the UK directive from immigration is 3 months of bank statements showing a minimum income in to a Thai bank account of at least 40k/65k a month if using the income method, 400k/800k if using the banked method. IMO, there will simply be no formal notice from immigration other than people being told/directed to there respective embassy information page as above when renewing or attempting a first time extension at an immigration office.
This is an updated version. The proceeding notice stated 12 months of bank statements required for the income method.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/notarial-and-documentary-services-guide-for-thailand
 

From 1 January 2019, the British Embassy Bangkok will no longer be providing British Nationals with letters confirming their income. This letter has previously served as a supporting document for obtaining a Thai retirement or marriage visa. The British Embassy Bangkok is stopping the certification of income letters because it is unable to fulfil the Thai authorities’ requirements to verify the income of British Nationals.

British Nationals should now demonstrate that they have an amount of at least 800,000 THB in an account in Thailand for no less than three months prior to the visa application, or a monthly income of at least 65,000 THB transferred into an account in Thailand. For marriage visas British Nationals should demonstrate that they have an amount of at least 400,000 THB in an account in Thailand for no less than three months prior to the visa application, or a monthly income of at least 40,000 THB. A bank statement should be used as the supporting document for obtaining a Thai retirement or marriage visa.

Sorry to be pedantic but this just shows how in touch the British Embassy are... Since when are we applying for a "Visa"?

 

Got one of those already...

[Pattaya46]

9 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

Of course you can show 12 months of bank statements //

No, you MUST show 12 (according to the UK Embassy). Why did you write 3 ?

 

9 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

// if your waiting for a formal statement from immigration, you maybe waiting a long time. The statement has already been issued via the respective Embassy's at the outcome of meetings which have now concluded.

Please wake up! You're still dreaming, thinking that USA can make laws in Thailand... 

Edited November 8, 2018 by Pattaya46

[luckyluke]

I am using Transferwise since August. 

When going to :"History"

one can see all the operations, this include :

Date, Name, Initially currency transfered (for me Euro), Costs, Equivalent amount in ThB. 

If I print it out I hope this (with a print out of the same amount debited on my account on my Belgian bank book) will satisfied T. I. that the amounts come from abroad, if it is that what they want. 

Edited November 8, 2018 by luckyluke

[JLCrab]

11 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

No, you MUST show 12 (according to the UK Embassy).

Yes that's what I am going on and, as of when my next extension is due, I will have made 13 months' worth of 65K+ baht FTT deposits into my Thai bank account.

[luckyluke]

So far no announcement from other Embassies. 

Why? 

Sure there are different speculations. 

[cleopatra2]

29 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

I am using Transferwise since August. 

When going to :"History"

one can see all the operations, this include :

Date, Name, Initially currency transfered (for me Euro), Costs, Equivalent amount in ThB. 

If I print it out I hope this (with a print out of the same amount debited on my account on my Belgian bank book) will satisfied T. I. that the amounts come from abroad, if it is that what they want. 

I would assume that Immigration would want to see the statement issued by a Thai bank suitably endorsed by the bank. In the same fashion as they do now to confirming funds have been seasoned for 2/3 months. when the passbook only shows a summary of funds but omits the transaction details,  

 

However presently the precise method of income proof is still unknown

[malagateddy]

So far no announcement from other Embassies. 
Why? 
Sure there are different speculations. 

Perhaps other Embassies can access eg..a Swedish persons Company pension's details..? etc etc..who knows

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Lovethailandelite]

1 hour ago, Pattaya46 said:

No, you MUST show 12 (according to the UK Embassy). Why did you write 3 ?

 

Please wake up! You're still dreaming, thinking that USA can make laws in Thailand... 

Because you are struggling to understand how this works.......

3 months is referring to 1st time applications.
12 months is referring to subsequent renewals. 

[OJAS]

1 hour ago, Lovethailandelite said:

What you are doing is the correct way to proceed. People seem to be waiting for some sort of formal notice from immigration. The formal notice has already been issued by the respective embassy's after the conclusion of meetings with immigration. I have not been through the fine detail of the US and Australian directive but the UK directive from immigration is 3 months of bank statements showing a minimum income in to a Thai bank account of at least 40k/65k a month if using the income method, 400k/800k if using the banked method. IMO, there will simply be no formal notice from immigration other than people being told/directed to there respective embassy information page as above when renewing or attempting a first time extension at an immigration office.
This is an updated version. The proceeding notice stated 12 months of bank statements required for the income method.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/notarial-and-documentary-services-guide-for-thailand
 

From 1 January 2019, the British Embassy Bangkok will no longer be providing British Nationals with letters confirming their income. This letter has previously served as a supporting document for obtaining a Thai retirement or marriage visa. The British Embassy Bangkok is stopping the certification of income letters because it is unable to fulfil the Thai authorities’ requirements to verify the income of British Nationals.

British Nationals should now demonstrate that they have an amount of at least 800,000 THB in an account in Thailand for no less than three months prior to the visa application, or a monthly income of at least 65,000 THB transferred into an account in Thailand. For marriage visas British Nationals should demonstrate that they have an amount of at least 400,000 THB in an account in Thailand for no less than three months prior to the visa application, or a monthly income of at least 40,000 THB. A bank statement should be used as the supporting document for obtaining a Thai retirement or marriage visa.

Since when have the American, Australian and British Embassies been responsible for prescribing Thai immigration policy?

 

As far as the British Embassy are concerned, this particular British retiree is intending to treat their claim that it will, in future, be possible to meet the retirement extension income requirement merely by transferring 65k each month into a Thai bank account with an exceedingly large pinch of salt, until such time as this is explicitly confirmed by the Immigration Bureau.

[Pattaya46]

13 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

3 months is referring to 1st time applications.
12 months is referring to subsequent renewals. 

If you say so... I will stop here, but nowhere in this topic I saw a document mentioning "3 months" when talking about the "income option" or "combo option"... 

[mogandave]

If you say so... I will stop here, but nowhere in this topic I saw a document mentioning "3 months" when talking about the "income option" or "combo option"... 

Is zero months mentioned?

[malagateddy]

Lets hope that some of the Forum Mods can organise a meeting with Big Joke and other Thai Immigration top kiddies and " thrash out " THE WAY FORWARD re presenting financial documentation to renew extensions of stay..Marriage and Retirement.

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[JLCrab]

11 minutes ago, OJAS said:

As far as the British Embassy are concerned, this particular British retiree is intending to treat their claim that it will, in future, be possible to meet the retirement extension income requirement merely by transferring 65k each month into a Thai bank account with an exceedingly large pinch of salt, until such time as this is explicitly confirmed by the Immigration Bureau.

As far as this Yank is concerned, I have about 8 months before I have to go some other route other than the 65K+ FTT monthly deposit into a Thai account before I have to do something else -- but if it turns out to be true, I don't want to be caught not able to avail.

[steve73]

16 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

From what I've seen here, the variation in how Transferwise transfers get listed here on the Thailand end seems to come down to which Thai bank company is receiving the transfer...

 

AFAICT, no one's having any problems with BKK Bank receiving those transfers, and they seem to consistently get logged here as inbound foreign transfers. On the flip side of that coin, I believe the incoming transfers received by Krungsri/Ayudhya do NOT get logged here as incoming foreign xfers.

 

I'm assuming there is some similar consistency among the other major banks -- Kasikorn, TMB, etc...  Either they do or they don't. And once you find out which, you probably can rely on that for future transfers with them.

 

I've never heard the reporting status of such transfers to vary from yes to no within the SAME Thai bank company.

 

 

Over the past 12 months I have used TW 16 times into my Kasikorn account.

I did not record how the first 3 transfers (prior to Mar 1st) were received by Kk.

The next 2 transfers (Mar/Apr) were reported as "Dummy Branch MCLxxxxx"

The next 5 (May-Jul) were reported as "International Trade and Factoring Centre TFNyyyyy"

The last 6 (Aug on) were reported as "Dummy Branch MCLxxxxx"

 

There is no indication why there should be any difference.

 

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, luckyluke said:

I am using Transferwise since August. 

When going to :"History"

one can see all the operations, this include :

Date, Name, Initially currency transfered (for me Euro), Costs, Equivalent amount in ThB. 

If I print it out I hope this (with a print out of the same amount debited on my account on my Belgian bank book) will satisfied T. I. that the amounts come from abroad, if it is that what they want. 

I think it is not wise to think Immigration will respect anything other than a document from a Thai bank with a Thai-bank's seal on it.  And we are hoping they even allow deposits shown in this way to work, in the absence of the embassy-letter. 

 

The goal of the exercise, at many offices, is not to "help" or determine if you "really meet the financial qualifications."  It is to determine if you can be forced to an agent. 

 

And even if they cared, they could not possibly know if any printouts you bring from Transferwise or Foreign Banks are genuine.  This is especially true now, given a felony-charge for lying in a sworn-statement to a consular-official is now no longer part of the equation.

[Thaidream]

1 minute ago, JackThompson said:

And even if they cared, they could not possibly know if any printouts you bring from Transferwise or Foreign Banks are genuine.  This is especially true now, given a felony-charge for lying in a sworn-statement to a consular-official is now no longer part of the equation.

Agree completely-  I can show 3 ATM receipts for 3 months taking 65K out of a Thai ATM each month and the Foreign ATM card which is  not only proof of the income but that it originated from abroad.  The slip shows the last 4 digits of my ATM card and the balance.  

 

They apparently have no interest in actually proving one has the income- they only want to create a situation where one has to pay to transfer money- get a letter from a Thai bank or better yet avoid it all and pay an agent fee. Even the  Embassy letter- sworn under penalty of perjury provided a better system.

[mogandave]

Even the  Embassy letter- sworn under penalty of perjury provided a better system.

How did it provide a better system?

[luckyluke]

46 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

I think it is not wise to think Immigration will respect anything other than a document from a Thai bank with a Thai-bank's seal on it. 

Sure, with Transferwise I transfer monthly the equivalent of 75000 ThB in Euro. On my SCB bankbook it is indicated as transfer. So if the SCB will be so kind to issue a document I have a monthly credit of 75000, unfortunately the only credits which come on my bankbook, I can also show the T. I. the money come from abroad. 

This of course if necessary, as per today the Belgian embassy and the Austrian Consulate in Pattaya haven't declare they won't issue Letter of Income anymore. 

[mogandave]

And even if they cared, they could not possibly know if any printouts you bring from Transferwise or Foreign Banks are genuine.  This is especially true now, given a felony-charge for lying in a sworn-statement to a consular-official is now no longer part of the equation.

I’m not sure what carries a greater penalty, but the ass-hair required to carry falsified/doctored documents into a government office to use as proof is significantly more than lying on a US government form.

Seems a lot easier as well. But once some guys get caught forging documents it will (again) get a lot more difficult for everyone.

[Thaidream]

4 minutes ago, mogandave said:

How did it provide a better system?

When I swear under penalty of perjury if I have lied it makes me a potential felon in the US and a criminal under the Thai criminal code-  If Thai Imm had any doubt or caught the lie- there is an FBI office at the Us Embassy who could investigate- file charges and proceed to Court.

According to what is proposed it leaves open all kind of ways to subvert the system and still no one is asking for proof of actual income only that one can get together the money  either by hook or crook. At least the Embassy system made one commit to  the income under Oath.

[mogandave]

When I swear under penalty of perjury if I have lied it makes me a potential felon in the US and a criminal under the Thai criminal code-  If Thai Imm had any doubt or caught the lie- there is an FBI office at the Us Embassy who could investigate- file charges and proceed to Court.
According to what is proposed it leaves open all kind of ways to subvert the system and still no one is asking for proof of actual income only that one can get together the money  either by hook or crook. At least the Embassy system made one commit to  the income under Oath.

So have you heard of anyone being caught?

And if not, do you believe it is because no one lies?

[Dante99]

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

I can show 3 ATM receipts for 3 months taking 65K out of a Thai ATM each month and the Foreign ATM card which is  not only proof of the income but that it originated from abroad. 

No that just shows money coming from abroad, it does nothing to show that the money is income.  It could just be savings from your piggybank that you sent to Thailand 4 months ago and recycled.

[luckyluke]

I don't think the Thai government will ever make an Embassy responsible of a writing which may be incorrect. 

This is not the way it goes in diplomacy. 

They may suggest something to an Embassy. 

Apparently this is what happened with the Dutch embassy. 

They issued an Affidavit before. They now issue a L.o.I..

Other embassies and consulates are also issuing such a letter. 

America, Australia, U. K. are not able to do it. 

This hurt a lot of expats from these countries. The gross of the Europeans are not distressed as it not concerned them. 

Maybe it will, or than maybe not. 

The fact is that no other embassy has announced an alteration. 

Of course it still can come, but strangely they all wait. 

 

 

[JimGant]

Quote

and still no one is asking for proof of actual income only

Oh Christ, can't we get away from this circle jerk? I wonder how many farangs, living under bridges, had legitimate proof of required income? If it's not disposable income, available for use in Thailand, it's of no use to what the Thais are trying to determine, i.e., your sustainability in Thailand. A baht in the hand is worth, what, a million bucks stuck in a foreign land? And by having proof filtered through a Thai bank seems very prudent, from a Thai perspective.

 

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, JimGant said:

Oh Christ, can't we get away from this circle jerk? I wonder how many farangs, living under bridges, had legitimate proof of required income? If it's not disposable income, available for use in Thailand, it's of no use to what the Thais are trying to determine, i.e., your sustainability in Thailand. A baht in the hand is worth, what, a million bucks stuck in a foreign land? And by having proof filtered through a Thai bank seems very prudent, from a Thai perspective.

 

I disagree.

Showing income streams into a non-Thai bank as long as it is clear that you have the capability to TRANSFER funds into Thailand as needed is the same thing! Just showing one transfer in the year regardless of the amount (or a valid debit card) is very good evidence that you have that capability.

Some of us have become infected with kind of a weird variation of the Stockholm syndrome. If we're not going to favor reasonable policies for foreigners here, nobody else will.

[JLCrab]

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

I can show 3 ATM receipts for 3 months taking 65K out of a Thai ATM each month

Why not show just one ATM slip for your one minimum 65K baht withdrawal each month from your non-Thai bank?

[Thaidream]

5 minutes ago, Dante99 said:

No that just shows money coming from abroad, it does nothing to show that the money is income.  It could just be savings from your piggybank that you sent to Thailand 4 months ago and recycled.

It could be but when the ATM slip  shows a balance in excess of 800K it's pretty clear  the money is sufficient- then backed by the  actual bank statement showing the  same amount or a letter from the pension provider.  At some point Thai imm has to accept some documentation on face value without  the thought that every person is a liar.

If their  goal is simply show the money- that's fine but  why put a restriction on where it comes from-  the retired population is hardly the age group that is working and the amounts needed are way above what a foreigner could earn. Thai Imm needs to decide whether they just want the money or  proof that  the applicant actually has the income stream guaranteed for the year.

 

[Thaidream]

15 minutes ago, JimGant said:

by having proof filtered through a Thai bank seems very prudent, from a Thai perspective.

Prudent for who- it proves nothing- i can  get 800K today from a money lender- send it to the US and have it sent back., I can write a check on my US account for the same and deposit it here. It will clear in 2 weeks-

I can cash in all my travelers checks and put the money in a Thai bank.  I can carry  the money in cash  -stop in Hong Kong and send it to Thailand or simply stop at Customs in Bangkok  and declare it as foreign sourced and then put it in the bank or drop it on the Immigration officers desk. If they want cash- cash they'll get- let's just be honest and say it proves nothing  as far as whether an applicant actually has an income stream of 65K per month. If they don't care that's fine but why did they even want an Embassy letter in the first place- if they didn't care?

 

[JimGant]

Quote

Just showing one transfer in the year regardless of the amount (or a valid debit card) is very good evidence that you have that capability.

You're kidding, right?

[JLCrab]

There may be other ways besides the foreign-transaction in a passbook that in-and-of-themselves are legitimate means to show evidence of monthly income, but they are time consuming and require a judgment on behalf of the IMM officer and could lead to total gridlock in the IMM offices --and maybe an adding machine with a paper tape roll on each desk