Just Received Some Bad News For US Citizens. No More Income Affidavits.

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, mogandave said:

Yes, no one has precise numbers, so why state your proportions as fact?

What it boils down to is, do you honestly believe that more people are committing Felonies to get lying embassy-letters and going in-person to face-off with an IO, than are paying agents to submit "no money" applications? 

 

Consider that immigration reward agent use with speedy-processing (no queues) and reduced documents (no landlord-docs), waiving financials, no home-visits, etc.  At the same time, they put many with embassy-letters through the wringer (I've been there and done that).

 

I don't need official-stats to reach what seems, to me, to be a logical conclusion - most money-fakers, as well as criminal/undesirable types, use agents.
 

1 hour ago, mogandave said:

 

I’d bet for every “cheater” agents process, there’re 1,000 legitimate applicants with everything in order that just need someone to walk them through it. We used an agent once, and I remember it costing something less than $50.

I've never seen an agent quote under 20K Baht to deal with immigration roadblocks in Pattaya/Jomtien (Non-O Stamp or Married to a Thai).  Retirement are offered cheaper there - as low as 15K, including the faked-money - but more reported elsewhere.  I haven't heard of any 1500 Baht ($50) agent services this side of Cambodia.

 

1 hour ago, mogandave said:

For every drug dealer “flush with cash” there are a hundred poor sots just trying to subsidize their habit.

In any case, they probably don't want to face an IO.  And Western-expat "drug addicts" would be more likely to stay somewhere like Portugal, where there it is quasi-legal - or Latin America, where prices are lowest and enforcement-lax - certainly not Thailand, where one could face stiff penalties and deportation, even for a small amount.

[mogandave]

In any case, they probably don't want to face an IO.  And Western-expat "drug addicts" would be more likely to stay somewhere like Portugal, where there it is quasi-legal - or Latin America, where prices are lowest and enforcement-lax - certainly not Thailand, where one could face stiff penalties and deportation, even for a small amount.

Yes, I think under-funded cheater would rather pay $50 to the embassy and take his chances with being charged with a felony than pay $700 to an agent.

I would liken the chance of a perjury charge to being arrested for tearing the tag off a mattress.

I said nothing about any “road blocks”.

I asked you what percentage of applications a typical agent processed are cheater, you never answered. I think the percentage is low.

For $50 they show you where to go and stand in line for you. They don’t falsify documentation or loan you 800k.

I know nothing about circumventing the system as I never have, and (as far as I know) the people I associate with here have not either.

[JackThompson]

6 minutes ago, mogandave said:

For $50 they show you where to go and stand in line for you. They don’t falsify documentation or loan you 800k.

Que-sitters? That would make sense for that price.

 

4 minutes ago, mogandave said:

I know nothing about circumventing the system as I never have, and (as far as I know) the people I associate with here have not either.

I haven't either - went out to a Thai-consulate to avoid it, twice, when an immigration-office blocked two honest applications (non-o stamp and 1-year extension).  But this is documented on this forum in multiple reports, and there are even ads displayed on it for these services.  It is very, very widespread.

[onera1961]

1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

certainly not Thailand, where one could face stiff penalties and deportation, even for a small amount

May be in this climate of night club raids but not earlier.

[phuketrichard]

4 hours ago, JackThompson said:

 

It is a decades-old system of allowing agents to submit applications for applicants.  The process varies to some extent by office. 

 

A handful of very wealthy people use agents, because ~$500 is worth less to them than a day or less of their time. 

 

Another group are forced to use agents, because IOs refuse to process legit applications (often adding more "needed documents" with each attempt, until they give up). 

 

The rest are people who do not meet the financial-qualifications, so pay agents to "sponsor" their applications by providing the funds.  In order to protect this system from competition, short-term loans were blocked for in-person applicants, by adding "seasoning-requirements."  But this "money seasoning" is waived by immigration for agent-applications (you guess why). 

 

Quote

Agents also handle work-visas - including the "L" visa applicants from neighboring countries - at a cost of ~10% of the gross annual wages of these low-wage workers, according to one I spoke with. 

 

Almost certainly, the drug-dealers just pay the agents.  Immigration allows - sometimes forces - thousands of fraudulent applications every year, in exchange for agent-money.  This dwarfs the handful of idiots who may not have under 65K income, and thought committing a felony-crime to get a US-Embassy letter was a wise-move.

as to the agents dealing with L-A migrant work visas, (valid for 2 years and legal work permit and medical card) this is not true, agents charge aorund 10-15,000 baht for everything regardless of the income

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, phuketrichard said:

as to the agents dealing with L-A migrant work visas, (valid for 2 years and legal work permit and medical card) this is not true, agents charge aorund 10-15,000 baht for everything regardless of the income

Consider the annual-wage of the recipient.  Unless I am mistaken, it is legal to pay them less than the Thai min-wage (not including the straight-up rip-offs, which some report).  Around 50K to 60K Baht/yr? 

 

I'm not putting that all on the agents - I'm sure much of it is the same sort of "tribute" attitude at play.  When one considers that agent-fees can be tough for some expats to come up with, it is all that much more difficult for under-min-wage workers to pay.

[totally thaied up]

Today during my visit to immigration to get my passport, my agent whom I have been using for a very long time told me to be prepared next year to have 400K in the bank. I told them I have been using the 400K method for the last few years and they said to me, ''Next year, the letters from most Embassies will mean nothing.'' I asked about 65/40 and they had no answer for that they told me again, the letter from the Embassies will mean nothing, so it was better to have the cash in the bank.

 

I asked for more information and I was just told depending on the Immigration office, each was different and just be prepared for next year. Like I have been saying for ages, I even don't think the agents know what it really going to happen till next year comes. 

[onera1961]

11 minutes ago, Ghulam abbas said:

not make the proper plans to have their money repatriated

Repatriate the money from whom? Their wives and children inherit it.

[Peterw42]

13 minutes ago, Ghulam abbas said:

I think big picture, Thailand wants a lot more capital inside its borders. As well, MANY retirees will eventually die and not make the proper plans to have their money repatriated. It's a scummy move and will have a LOT of us planning to seek life elsewhere

Its 800k per year using either the income method or lump sum method, its the same amount of money coming inside Thai borders. I dont think there is a plan to get hold of the 800k everytime someone passes away, most people have partners, wills, online banking etc.

[merijn]

1 hour ago, totally thaied up said:

Today during my visit to immigration to get my passport, my agent whom I have been using for a very long time told me to be prepared next year to have 400K in the bank. I told them I have been using the 400K method for the last few years and they said to me, ''Next year, the letters from most Embassies will mean nothing.'' I asked about 65/40 and they had no answer for that they told me again, the letter from the Embassies will mean nothing, so it was better to have the cash in the bank.

 

I asked for more information and I was just told depending on the Immigration office, each was different and just be prepared for next year. Like I have been saying for ages, I even don't think the agents know what it really going to happen till next year comes. 

As the immigration offices don't even know what is happening in the next few months/year i highly doubt that a agent will know more.

[Jingthing]

3 hours ago, totally thaied up said:

Today during my visit to immigration to get my passport, my agent whom I have been using for a very long time told me to be prepared next year to have 400K in the bank. I told them I have been using the 400K method for the last few years and they said to me, ''Next year, the letters from most Embassies will mean nothing.'' I asked about 65/40 and they had no answer for that they told me again, the letter from the Embassies will mean nothing, so it was better to have the cash in the bank.

 

I asked for more information and I was just told depending on the Immigration office, each was different and just be prepared for next year. Like I have been saying for ages, I even don't think the agents know what it really going to happen till next year comes. 

How could they possibly know when Thai immigration doesn't even know yet?

[Spidey]

7 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

How could they possibly know when Thai immigration doesn't even know yet?

"Yet". Love the optimism 555

[Langsuan Man]

8 hours ago, Spidey said:

"Yet". Love the optimism 555

This is Thailand, the Agents are probably writing the new rules for Immigration as we speak 

[JackThompson]

28 minutes ago, Langsuan Man said:

This is Thailand, the Agents are probably writing the new rules for Immigration as we speak 

As I see it, the agents work for immigration - not the other way around.  But, certainly, they would be a part of the "rules planning group" - helping ensure any policy-changes are designed to be exploited for maximum brown-envelope revenue.

[phuketrichard]

17 hours ago, JackThompson said:

Consider the annual-wage of the recipient.  Unless I am mistaken, it is legal to pay them less than the Thai min-wage (not including the straight-up rip-offs, which some report).  Around 50K to 60K Baht/yr? 

 

I'm not putting that all on the agents - I'm sure much of it is the same sort of "tribute" attitude at play.  When one considers that agent-fees can be tough for some expats to come up with, it is all that much more difficult for under-min-wage workers to pay.

LOL:
most people that i know that employ Burmese, ( construction,  hotels & Restaurants...there over 600,000 Burmese working in Phuket alone according to the agent i use here in Phuket)  and those that I know that work at the gas stations earn MIN 8-10,000 baht/month PLUS food and accommodations.

No idea where u get the figures 50-60,000

Edited November 13, 2018 by phuketrichard

[malt25]

1 hour ago, phuketrichard said:

LOL:
most people that i know that employ Burmese, ( construction,  hotels & Restaurants...there over 600,000 Burmese working in Phuket alone according to the agent i use here in Phuket)  and those that I know that work at the gas stations earn MIN 8-10,000 baht/month PLUS food and accommodations.

No idea where u get the figures 50-60,000

I've never been to Phuket, but using the SWAG technique, I'd say 600,000 Burmese working in Phuket has suffered the few additional digits syndrome.

[mogandave]

LOL:
most people that i know that employ Burmese, ( construction,  hotels & Restaurants...there over 600,000 Burmese working in Phuket alone according to the agent i use here in Phuket)  and those that I know that work at the gas stations earn MIN 8-10,000 baht/month PLUS food and accommodations.
No idea where u get the figures 50-60,000

They make them up...

[marcusarelus]

25 minutes ago, malt25 said:

I've never been to Phuket, but using the SWAG technique, I'd say 600,000 Burmese working in Phuket has suffered the few additional digits syndrome.

How many 90 day reports would that be per day?

[DogNo1]

I have second-hand news that a Canadian citizen received a letter certifying that he received more then 65,000 in retirement income per month in his Canadian bank account that the Canadian Embassy volunteered to write for him. When he went to Chaeng Wattana to do his 90-day report, an immigration officer told him the the evidence of receiving the money in his Canadian bank account would be acceptable proof of income to enable extending his stay beginning when his renewal date will be 45 days away.  This supports my supposition that the embassy letters will go away but the proof of income requirement will remain but not change and it will not require that the income be brought into Thailand.  Also, embassy letters may no longer be accepted after December 31, 2018. They are not really valid now.   I don't why people are assuming that embassy letters will be acceptable throughout 2019.  It doesn't seem that any change to the proof of income requirements will be forthcoming so the proof of income that many of have been using for 10 years should continue to be acceptable.

[marcusarelus]

13 minutes ago, DogNo1 said:

I have second-hand news that a Canadian citizen received a letter certifying that he received more then 65,000 in retirement income per month in his Canadian bank account that the Canadian Embassy volunteered to write for him. When he went to Chaeng Wattana to do his 90-day report, an immigration officer told him the the evidence of receiving the money in his Canadian bank account would be acceptable proof of income to enable extending his stay beginning when his renewal date will be 45 days away.  This supports my supposition that the embassy letters will go away but the proof of income requirement will remain but not change and it will not require that the income be brought into Thailand.  Also, embassy letters may no longer be accepted after December 31, 2018. They are not really valid now.   I don't why people are assuming that embassy letters will be acceptable throughout 2019.  It doesn't seem that any change to the proof of income requirements will be forthcoming so the proof of income that many of have been using for 10 years should continue to be acceptable.

Perhaps because this thread is about Americans and the information is not second hand and there are 2782 posts discussing the issue.  Just a thought.

[mogandave]

Exactly

[jimn]

3 hours ago, DogNo1 said:

I have second-hand news that a Canadian citizen received a letter certifying that he received more then 65,000 in retirement income per month in his Canadian bank account that the Canadian Embassy volunteered to write for him. When he went to Chaeng Wattana to do his 90-day report, an immigration officer told him the the evidence of receiving the money in his Canadian bank account would be acceptable proof of income to enable extending his stay beginning when his renewal date will be 45 days away.  This supports my supposition that the embassy letters will go away but the proof of income requirement will remain but not change and it will not require that the income be brought into Thailand.  Also, embassy letters may no longer be accepted after December 31, 2018. They are not really valid now.   I don't why people are assuming that embassy letters will be acceptable throughout 2019.  It doesn't seem that any change to the proof of income requirements will be forthcoming so the proof of income that many of have been using for 10 years should continue to be acceptable.

Firstly its the officer on the 90 day desk and not the officer dealing with extension of stays based on retirement and secondly it seems like he had an embassy letter that has always been accepted. Many people myself included get a retirement extension based on income into my uk bank account proved by an embassy letter. Nothing new here. You say the embassy letters are not really valid now, what do you base that upon of course they are. Until TI say that embassy letters will not be accepted, it is safe to assume that they are valid for 6 months as they are now. In this case TI will have to tell us exactly what is acceptable, we all know that. Until then everything is just a guess.

[luckyluke]

Embassy letters are accepted and so far will be accepted next year.

 

T.I. has changed nothing of their written rules.

 

3 embassies have decided to not issue the document needed, a pity for the nationals of these 3 countries using this service.

 

This is in theory of no concern for T.I..

 

Of course T.I. can change their rules at any moment ( they have done it a few times before : like age of applicant and amount needed ).

 

But they will do it, like before, when it  suit them, not to suit others.

[JackThompson]

6 hours ago, phuketrichard said:

LOL:
most people that i know that employ Burmese, ( construction,  hotels & Restaurants...there over 600,000 Burmese working in Phuket alone according to the agent i use here in Phuket)  and those that I know that work at the gas stations earn MIN 8-10,000 baht/month PLUS food and accommodations.

No idea where u get the figures 50-60,000

Wow - more than Thais doing the same jobs, then, when you include the free room and board.

 

My figure was from those doing hospitality work in Pattaya/Jomtien.  Thais start at 8K/mo - and less during months of "training."

Edited November 13, 2018 by JackThompson

[mogandave]

Wow - more than Thais doing the same jobs, then, when you include the free room and board.
 
My figure was from those doing hospitality work in Pattaya/Jomtien.  Thais start at 8K/mo - and less during months of "training."

Working in the hot sun and sleeping on the floor of a tin-shack without running water is the same as working in the hospitality industry?

If I knew companies paying less than the minimum wage I would report them to the labor department.

[ubonjoe]

It is past time to get this topic back to being a little closer to being on topic.

Time to end the discussion about workers from Myanmar and etc.

Removed some nonsensical posts.

[DogNo1]

For those who  need a bank to deposit their 56,000 to cover a shortfall can use the monthly deposit into a Thai Bank I think that The rertirement income paid into any bank account will continue

 

[ubonjoe]

A off topic post has been removed. 

[Oztruckie]

Renewed my extension to stay at jomtien last week, rocked up with all the forms filled out and signed, io looked at my Stat Dec, umm, she ask, you use Stat Dec last year, yes, last 2 years my reply, I go see my supervisor, stat dec not enough now, must show 800k in bank, she tell me next year no more stat Dec, must show 800k in bank, guess its more confusion about what's required

[cleverman]

40 minutes ago, Oztruckie said:

Renewed my extension to stay at jomtien last week, rocked up with all the forms filled out and signed, io looked at my Stat Dec, umm, she ask, you use Stat Dec last year, yes, last 2 years my reply, I go see my supervisor, stat dec not enough now, must show 800k in bank, she tell me next year no more stat Dec, must show 800k in bank, guess its more confusion about what's required

I must be really losing my mind. For some reason I thought that all the posts on this matter have been about needing money in the bank after the stat dec runs out. Where is the "more confusion?"