1st-class drama: Thai Airways sides with passengers over pilots

[Prince77]

15 hours ago, Bluespunk said:

 

“I was informed that if I refused to switch my seat with the deadhead pilots, the on-duty pilots wouldn’t take off,” the letter read. “If my wife and I hadn’t given up our seats, the delay would’ve continued. We felt sorry for the other passengers who were also affected.”

 

You paid for Business class and that is all you were entitled to.

 

You should have moved back there, when asked. 

It is complicated: on this plane were first class seats BUT served as Business Class. Yes, the couple paid a hard earned Dollar for the Business Class ... and what did the arrongant bus drivers / pilots pay? ZERO - they just forgot who is the cook and who is the servant. Passengers were right.

[Bluespunk]

1 minute ago, Prince77 said:

It is complicated: on this plane were first class seats BUT served as Business Class. Yes, the couple paid a hard earned Dollar for the Business Class ... and what did the arrongant bus drivers / pilots pay? ZERO - they just forgot who is the cook and who is the servant. Passengers were right.

The passengers were asked to move to business class area, as that is what they paid for. 

 

They had no argument to not do so. 

[NaamGin]

43 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

They are not bus drivers.  These are highly trained professionals who operate multimillion dollar high tech machines and who have responsibility for the  safety of  hundreds on board and thousands who may be under them them when in the air.

 

The pilot responsible for the incident has a known history for his behavior and has been untouchable to date. Don't blame all the TG aircrews because he is a jerk. In any case, the passengers in question were upgraded. They did not pay for the 1st class seat, nor were they legally or even morally entitled to the seat. It had been provided as a courtesy only.  It is no different than when a no show shows and a gate upgrade pax is moved back to his/her seat. Every frequent traveler knows this. The only people who make a fuss over this type of event are infrequent flyers.

You are talking to an "educated bus driver".  I am a commercial pilot with an ATP rating, so I think I know what vernacular pilots use within the industry. The term "educated bus driver" is an inside joke with pilots as these days that's about all we are. 

 

There is an old joke about pilots of the future. There will be one pilot in the cockpit and a dog. The pilot is there to monitor the instruments and the dog is there to bite the pilot if he touches anything. In today's aircraft, the pilot is only there to monitor the systems, nothing more. The term "educated bus driver" applies more today than ever. 

 

This was not a simple case of upgrading pilots that were dead-heading back to Thailand. The Captain held the flight for 2 hours until the 1st class passengers relented and gave up their seats. At least that's the way it was stated in the article I read on the topic. 

Edited October 30, 2018 by NaamGin

[Fex Bluse]

The reason so few of us here can offer these guys the benefit of the doubt is because we all know how arrogant allegedly educated Thais tend to be, almost without exception. 

 

Many have little understanding of a world that has rules and laws that everyone must follow, not just people with less socio-economic privilege. 

 

And, to make it worse, they are almost uniformly less competent than their peers around the world. 

Edited October 30, 2018 by Fex Bluse

[mercman24]

well if you care to read it the 2 passengers were  UPGRADED so in fact they had no right to be in those seats they were in business class, in the first place, they were the ones kicking up a stink,

[upu2]

Typical Thai attitude in that the customer doesnt not count for anything. They talk about competition but if they ever get it Thailand will go out of business

[Nip]

Setting up a committee in Thailand is just a means of stalling and avoiding the issue until it's forgotten. And a committee in Thailand is first set up to set up the investigating committee and they report to another committee who make a decision which is then reviewed by another committee who .... Thing is I ain't joking.

[MikeN]

1 hour ago, mercman24 said:

well if you care to read it the 2 passengers were  UPGRADED so in fact they had no right to be in those seats they were in business class, in the first place, they were the ones kicking up a stink,

But once they had been upgraded it was very bad customer relations and business practice to downgrade them again.

 If it had been the original plane the off duty pilots would have had to sit in business class anyway, if it was good enough for them then business class should have been good enough in the replacement plane.

[scorecard]

4 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

They are not bus drivers.  These are highly trained professionals who operate multimillion dollar high tech machines and who have responsibility for the  safety of  hundreds on board and thousands who may be under them them when in the air.

 

The pilot responsible for the incident has a known history for his behavior and has been untouchable to date. Don't blame all the TG aircrews because he is a jerk. In any case, the passengers in question were upgraded. They did not pay for the 1st class seat, nor were they legally or even morally entitled to the seat. It had been provided as a courtesy only.  It is no different than when a no show shows and a gate upgrade pax is moved back to his/her seat. Every frequent traveler knows this. The only people who make a fuss over this type of event are infrequent flyers.

"The pilot responsible for the incident has a known history for his behavior and has been untouchable to date." 

 

Can you please share a bit more detail on this, thanks.

[SheungWan]

 

4 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

They are not bus drivers.  These are highly trained professionals who operate multimillion dollar high tech machines and who have responsibility for the  safety of  hundreds on board and thousands who may be under them them when in the air.

 

The pilot responsible for the incident has a known history for his behavior and has been untouchable to date. Don't blame all the TG aircrews because he is a jerk. In any case, the passengers in question were upgraded. They did not pay for the 1st class seat, nor were they legally or even morally entitled to the seat. It had been provided as a courtesy only.  It is no different than when a no show shows and a gate upgrade pax is moved back to his/her seat. Every frequent traveler knows this. The only people who make a fuss over this type of event are infrequent flyers.

Last minute upgrades are normally allocated at the boarding gate only after a no-show has missed the cut-off time for checking in. In short the no-show has defaulted. Nobody who has been upgraded at boarding subsequently sits in trepidation wondering if they are going to be pushed back. In addition, the one who has been upgraded, their seat will invariably also have been re-allocated.

[SheungWan]

2 hours ago, mercman24 said:

well if you care to read it the 2 passengers were  UPGRADED so in fact they had no right to be in those seats they were in business class, in the first place, they were the ones kicking up a stink,

Once the seat has been issued ie confirmed it isn't a free lollipop to be snatched away.

[SheungWan]

22 minutes ago, MikeN said:

But once they had been upgraded it was very bad customer relations and business practice to downgrade them again.

 If it had been the original plane the off duty pilots would have had to sit in business class anyway, if it was good enough for them then business class should have been good enough in the replacement plane.

A very fair point. However, pilots can be awkward buggers and they have the clout. A practical solution at that point is for the airline either to make a cash offer to upgraded passengers to move back or a free ticket on next booking. Many eons ago, SAS used to make a cash offer to long-haul passengers around XMas time as they regularly oversold seats. Not to move back (already in economy) but to be bumped to next flight tomorrow or even another airport.

[Tchooptip]

19 hours ago, Bluespunk said:

 

“I was informed that if I refused to switch my seat with the deadhead pilots, the on-duty pilots wouldn’t take off,” the letter read. “If my wife and I hadn’t given up our seats, the delay would’ve continued. We felt sorry for the other passengers who were also affected.”

 

You paid for Business class and that is all you were entitled to.

 

You should have moved back there, when asked.

At least someone who read the whole story  in fact, his wife and him were "upgraded" in first class, then they refused to go back in business class.

[natway09]

Why another committee ???

Just get the MD to order the directive 

[ncc1701d]

4 hours ago, NaamGin said:

You are talking to an "educated bus driver".  I am a commercial pilot with an ATP rating, so I think I know what vernacular pilots use within the industry. The term "educated bus driver" is an inside joke with pilots as these days that's about all we are. 

 

There is an old joke about pilots of the future. There will be one pilot in the cockpit and a dog. The pilot is there to monitor the instruments and the dog is there to bite the pilot if he touches anything. In today's aircraft, the pilot is only there to monitor the systems, nothing more. The term "educated bus driver" applies more today than ever. 

If you were an actual airline pilot you wouldn’t denigrate the profession with 40 year old “jokes” about dogs at the controls and that you’re just an educated bus driver. 

 

As as for the article - management have taken responsibility and have said it’s a confusing policy - and yet say they will reprimand those involved. Typical Asian airline management.

[unamazedloso]

Geez, spoiled bratz much? I dont think these ego maniacs should be in charge of flying planes. EVER!!

Luckni dont fly thai airways anymore. Theres something real dodgey with their smile's. Dont trust em....

[Sir Swagman]

7 hours ago, cracker1 said:

I have always believed that the aircraft Captain was in charge once the passengers and crew were aboard and the station chief was in charge before boarding ?
It is worrying that there needs to be a discussion between them regarding "on-board" incidents.

In an emergency this could be catastrophic !

With TG, until the door is closed the duty manager has control over dispatch. Not with every situation, but with commercial ones certainly. I recall being delayed due to a starter failure and changing planes, then the catering came across, which took ages, then being told there was a problem because it was now 10:30 and breakfast was loaded - had to be changed for a lunch! I told him not to be stupid and we would go, only to be told that he was in charge of dispatch and would not allow a departure until catering had been changed....another 1hr+ delay. Barking.......

[Sir Swagman]

2 hours ago, ncc1701d said:

If you were an actual airline pilot you wouldn’t denigrate the profession with 40 year old “jokes” about dogs at the controls and that you’re just an educated bus driver. 

 

As as for the article - management have taken responsibility and have said it’s a confusing policy - and yet say they will reprimand those involved. Typical Asian airline management.

It is not a confusing policy. Deadheading duty crew are contractually entitled to a first class seat. The chaos ensued because there were no first class seats sold on this flight, although the aircraft had a first class cabin. Commercial failed to communicate that two of the first class seats were blocked off, or if they did, it was ignored or overlooked by Zurich. I have been in this situation both as paxing crew and operating. If paxing I just tell the manager to call transport and we will go back to the hotel - usually produces rapid results. When operating I told the manager to fix it as we would leave on time with or without the deadheading crew.

[Grusa]

6 hours ago, Fex Bluse said:

The reason so few of us here can offer these guys the benefit of the doubt is because we all know how arrogant allegedly educated Thais tend to be, almost without exception. 

 

Many have little understanding of a world that has rules and laws that everyone must follow, not just people with less socio-economic privilege. 

 

And, to make it worse, they are almost uniformly less competent than their peers around the world. 

Excellent post. I have only one quibble, please delete "almost"

[Katia]

8 hours ago, Duke of Earl said:

Have you ever sat on a stuffy plane grounded for 2 hours on the tarmac because people were arguing about seats?

Dramatic indeed.

No doubt it sucks, but no point in writing a headline that makes it sound like ten hours or something.  Could have just as easily written it as "people stuck in plane for a miniscule fraction of their life" and it would be equally as ridiculous.

[ncc1701d]

1 hour ago, Sir Swagman said:

It is not a confusing policy. Deadheading duty crew are contractually entitled to a first class seat. The chaos ensued because there were no first class seats sold on this flight, although the aircraft had a first class cabin. Commercial failed to communicate that two of the first class seats were blocked off, or if they did, it was ignored or overlooked by Zurich. I have been in this situation both as paxing crew and operating. If paxing I just tell the manager to call transport and we will go back to the hotel - usually produces rapid results. When operating I told the manager to fix it as we would leave on time with or without the deadheading crew.

I don’t know Thai policy. Every airline is different. Having said that, I agree that it probably is simple - just management trying to pass the buck.

[cookieqw]

9 hours ago, NaamGin said:

You are talking to an "educated bus driver".  I am a commercial pilot with an ATP rating, so I think I know what vernacular pilots use within the industry. The term "educated bus driver" is an inside joke with pilots as these days that's about all we are. 

 

There is an old joke about pilots of the future. There will be one pilot in the cockpit and a dog. The pilot is there to monitor the instruments and the dog is there to bite the pilot if he touches anything. In today's aircraft, the pilot is only there to monitor the systems, nothing more. The term "educated bus driver" applies more today than ever. 

 

This was not a simple case of upgrading pilots that were dead-heading back to Thailand. The Captain held the flight for 2 hours until the 1st class passengers relented and gave up their seats. At least that's the way it was stated in the article I read on the topic. 

yes an ex neighbour of mine was a weapons operator on the american swing wing bombers that did libya he always referred to the pilot as the taxi driver. but i do like the bit about the dog 555

[CLW]

Unless you are some high flying Thai politician or civil servant, why fly Thai at all if there are other alternatives ? The airline is sustained by the state and profitability is not an issue. It is there for the ' looks good ' factor not as a serious option for savvy customers.
 
Recent example. Wanted to fly wife and self to London non stop ( in September just past ) Best quotes from several agents averaged out as this :
 
British Airways ......  25,000 each.
Eva Airways ........  32,000
Thai Airways ....... 35...37,000 
 
Why would you pay more for inferior service unless you are a privalaged Thai getting a heavily discounted or free ticket ?
 
Don't like BA and usually fly EVA but have to say the BA flight was better than EVA and for 2 tickets saved 10,000 baht with a better arrival time at a less crowded terminal on arrival. With hand baggage only were through immigration within 25 minutes of plane touching down.

You name it. Only privileged Thais or wannabes using this Airline.
I see no reason to use them as they are always far more expensive except their Thai smile LCC sometimes.

[melvinmelvin]

15 hours ago, Duke of Earl said:

Have you ever sat on a stuffy plane grounded for 2 hours on the tarmac because people were arguing about seats?

Dramatic indeed.

yes, actually I have

Nice, southern France, Lufthansa flight to (munich?frankfurt?)

 

groundstaff had screwed up substantially, there were 10-15 more people in the cabin than there were seats

 

what a circus and it took looooooong time to sort that one

 

[melvinmelvin]

8 hours ago, Sir Swagman said:

With TG, until the door is closed the duty manager has control over dispatch. Not with every situation, but with commercial ones certainly. I recall being delayed due to a starter failure and changing planes, then the catering came across, which took ages, then being told there was a problem because it was now 10:30 and breakfast was loaded - had to be changed for a lunch! I told him not to be stupid and we would go, only to be told that he was in charge of dispatch and would not allow a departure until catering had been changed....another 1hr+ delay. Barking.......

have experienced that breakfast-lunch shit myself, after a technical delay

short flight, Dublin-Heathrow, BA, shifting trays - a rubbish reason for further delays

[mikebell]

22 hours ago, SheungWan said:

What's low prices got to do with the story?

'we get our salary and our wages from them picking our service.”  These are the words of the Company chairman.  Passengers choose to fly based on pricing and service levels.

[Prince77]

On ‎10‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 12:11 PM, mercman24 said:

well if you care to read it the 2 passengers were  UPGRADED so in fact they had no right to be in those seats they were in business class, in the first place, they were the ones kicking up a stink,

There was NOT A SINGLE passenger on board who booked a first class seat! Why? Because the plane originally scheduled for this Service was a B 777 with no first class available. As there was an un-scheduled equipement change for a B747 (which has first class seats inside) ALL Business class passenger were "upgraded". The two deadhead pilots were pilots for the B 777 and not qualified to operate the B 747; further those pilots did not have any scheduled duty for the next day. Passengers were right as the paid at least for the flight.

[rak sa_ngop]

43 minutes ago, Prince77 said:

There was NOT A SINGLE passenger on board who booked a first class seat! Why? Because the plane originally scheduled for this Service was a B 777 with no first class available. As there was an un-scheduled equipement change for a B747 (which has first class seats inside) ALL Business class passenger were "upgraded". The two deadhead pilots were pilots for the B 777 and not qualified to operate the B 747; further those pilots did not have any scheduled duty for the next day. Passengers were right as the paid at least for the flight.

So two business class passengers were upgraded to first class, then refused to return back to business class when asked (nicely?). The fact that it was stated (in the press) that the two passengers were a high ranking Thai official and his wife explains it completely. IMHO they were in the wrong as well!

[SheungWan]

19 minutes ago, rak sa_ngop said:

So two business class passengers were upgraded to first class, then refused to return back to business class when asked (nicely?). The fact that it was stated (in the press) that the two passengers were a high ranking Thai official and his wife explains it completely. IMHO they were in the wrong as well!

Once the ticket has been issue for an upgrade, the old ticket is gone (completely open then for re-allocation) and there is nothing to return to. The holders of that ticket have relinquished all claims to that ticket/seat. What the two are being asked to do is move to business class from First on that plane for that journey. At that point an incentive should have been offered, not necessarily to the two concerned but to those sitting in First in the replacement plane to move to the BC cabin. Get a couple of volunteers. THAI recognised that the situation was handled badly, but some thread contributors seemingly want to double down either on the side of the pilots or the passengers in question.

Edited October 31, 2018 by SheungWan