If suspected to work illegally in Thailand, tell them "work online"?

[LivinLOS]

49 minutes ago, cat handler said:

Yes but the work is still being performed in Thailand, that's working in Thailand and u need a Work Visa to work in Thailand, maybe nobody has been charged or deported to date but that's not to say they can't be. 

 

People have been.. Online teachers.. Online porn makers (charged with work permit violations).. etc.. 

The My Mate Nate is just a perfect example, it was deemed that to earn ad revenue from youtube, something earned overseas and without Thai clients, you need a work permit.. But the denial just continues. 

[jackdd]

18 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

Remove the lack of enforcement issue.. Why are BOI registered umbrella companies mushrooming up to provide exactly this service, if it isnt a legal need ?? 

Because some people think it's convenient and "safer" (currently nobody is having a problem with online workers, but of course it could change in the future, with a company in Thailand you are quite safe), so they pay for it. Same reason why people pay for other stuff that's not necessary, like for example visa agents

 

9 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

The My Mate Nate is just a perfect example, it was deemed that to earn ad revenue from youtube, something earned overseas and without Thai clients, you need a work permit.. But the denial just continues. 

A perfect example that working online is legal without work permit? Afaik he never got charged for working without work permit, even though many people know him and he even has Thai clients, Thai employees and income in Thailand.

[farangx]

I like to see immigration here requires all foreigners have a work permit if they are working online here.  That will keep things simple.  If a tourist is working online here, he should apply for a work permit.  Thailand does not any working holiday arrangement with any country AFAIK.

 

[ExpatDraco]

Thats not what every formal statement by labour officials has said.. 
 
Remove the lack of enforcement issue.. Why are BOI registered umbrella companies mushrooming up to provide exactly this service, if it isnt a legal need ?? 

Show me some, besides Iglu...

[Happy Grumpy]

4 hours ago, cat handler said:

Yes but the work is still being performed in Thailand,

Incorrect. It's being preformed online.

 

 

If the income is coming into Thailand, go down to the tax office, get your TIN (Thai Tax Number), no need for a WP for that, and pay your Thai income tax, no WP needed as those that work online, trade stocks, or are landlords here don't need WP's. 

[Happy Grumpy]

4 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

Online teachers.. Online porn makers.. My Mate Nate

If you cannot differentiate between these, you obviously haven't a clue what you're on about and your comments are only worthy of a laugh. ???? 

 

 

Thanks for the laugh. ????

[Happy Grumpy]

32 minutes ago, farangx said:

I like to see immigration here requires all foreigners have a work permit

Immigration?

 

No the DoL?

 

????

 

 

Another expert. ????

[JackThompson]

4 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

People have been.. Online teachers.. Online porn makers (charged with work permit violations).. etc.. 

The My Mate Nate is just a perfect example, it was deemed that to earn ad revenue from youtube, something earned overseas and without Thai clients, you need a work permit.. But the denial just continues. 

I don't know about the teachers, unless you mean the case where the Thai company was paying them.  But making porn in Thailand?  Filming videos (nate) in Thailand?  Those last two are definitely violations, as they are business-activity conducted in the country - not "remote work" done electronically affecting machines operating in another country.

 

4 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

Remove the lack of enforcement issue.. Why are BOI registered umbrella companies mushrooming up to provide exactly this service, if it isnt a legal need ?? 

Because it provides a B-Visa allowing for perpetual stay (with a healthy "donation" to immigration for each, I would bet) - vs going out for new visas and coming back repeatedly? 

 

22 minutes ago, ExpatDraco said:

Show me some, besides Iglu...

There is one other new one now (sorry, spaced the name) - which offers less money/mo to the company than Iglu, but you pay your own taxes. 

When I did the math, even an Elite Visa is still a "less bad" deal for uninterrupted permit-to-stay costs.  No work-permit with that, but no one cares (or could possibly know) what you do on a laptop in your condo, updating server-code on the other side of the planet, anyway.

 

15 minutes ago, Happy Grumpy said:

If the income is coming into Thailand, go down to the tax office, get your TIN (Thai Tax Number), no need for a WP for that, and pay your Thai income tax, no WP needed as those that work online, trade stocks, or are landlords here don't need WP's. 

Bringing in offshore business-income in the year earned is taxable - yes. This may be a way to help to "prove your income" with immigration, in the absence of income-letters - for those here on Non-O extensions - as back up proof to one's Thai-bank "monthly deposits" proof.  But there has been no test-case that I am aware of, so it could fail to be accepted.

[dcnx]

You never, ever tell them you work. You live off of investments and don’t have to work. Speak with authority and confidence. Be dominant but NOT aggressive, and do it all with a smile. Make a fake business card that says your an investor. 

 

There are so many ways to beat these knuckleheads, you just have to outsmart them, which isn’t hard.

 

However, this probably won’t work as well if you look like a backpacking scrub.

[farangx]

36 minutes ago, Happy Grumpy said:

Immigration?

 

No the DoL?

 

????

 

 

Another expert. ????

I am no expert I can guarantee you that!. I have not find out which government department approves Work Permit and I also don't care.  Could be the Fishery department if there is one. All I like to see is tourists must apply for a work permit if they want work online in Thailand.  Why must they work online in Thailand when they can work at home, ah! to contribute to the local economy .... ????

[Happy Grumpy]

15 minutes ago, farangx said:

I am no expert 

Evidently. ????

 

16 minutes ago, farangx said:

I have not find out which government department approves Work Permit and I also don't care.

You obviously care as you're here commenting about work permits. Albeit completely cluelessly. ????

 

17 minutes ago, farangx said:

All I like to see is tourists must apply for a work permit if they want work online in Thailand.  Why must they work online in Thailand when they can work at home

People have been connecting with work whilst on holiday for as long as there has been work and holidays. ???? Well, professionals, maybe not miners and taxi drivers.

 

If someone needs to make contact with work for 1 or 2 hours a day whilst on holiday, they should stay at home because of it? ????

[JackThompson]

13 minutes ago, farangx said:

Why must they work online in Thailand when they can work at home, ah! to contribute to the local economy .... ????

They do it, because living here is often much better, in terms of quality-of-life vs overhead, than one's passport country. 

 

Contributing to the local economy is simply the Thai benefit to the arrangement - why they should care, since it isn't their job to care about our well-being, as their top-priority should be maximizing opportunities for their own citizenry. 

 

There are dozens of countries happy to have people "supporting local economies," by staying on repeat tourist-visas and/or other visas/extensions - precisely because it's a "win-win" policy in the best-interest of their own citizens.  Three in SE Asia, alone, do this.

[direction BANGKOK]

This is such a confusing topic.

 

Let's take two scenarios to show you what I mean.

 

1) A business man comes to Thailand for vacation, and while here gets on phone calls and on internet and makes money. Working illegally? If you answered no, what if the cacation was extended a few months? 

 

2) A youtuber makes videos while in Thailand, all videos are not monetized. He gets home and monetizes them. Working illegally? 

[Hummin]

3 minutes ago, direction BANGKOK said:

This is such a confusing topic.

 

Let's take two scenarios to show you what I mean.

 

1) A business man comes to Thailand for vacation, and while here gets on phone calls and on internet and makes money. Working illegally? If you answered no, what if the cacation was extended a few months? 

 

2) A youtuber makes videos while in Thailand, all videos are not monetized. He gets home and monetizes them. Working illegally? 

The problem here is abusing the tourist visas, not if they work up against there work home! Nobody can control if someone work on normal vacations, or a youtuber film and do the postproduction back home. 

 

If he or she is an active youtuber or blogger, living in Thailand, he or she could face problems at some point. There is strict rules when it comes to comercial filming in thailand, as well pictures. 

 

I know some semi famous animal lover was transportet home awhile ago, just because he started to be famouse, and the officals got him on their radar. If you do some kind of publishing on social media, and do get alot of attention, be sure the officials know about you as soon your popularity grows. 

[farangx]

1 hour ago, Happy Grumpy said:

You obviously care as you're here commenting about work permits. Albeit completely cluelessly. ????

So because I don't know which gov dept issues work permit therefore I am not allowed to comment on it is it?  That is like saying there is no need for you to eat because you don't know how to cook ....

 

I have my fair share of work permits elsewhere in Asia but why do I need to know in detail about in Thailand when I am a retiree here.  Immigration in Thailand is too lax with tourist visa and that is why you foreigners prefer to game the system here.  They won't be able to try this Singapore or Malaysia.  I see absolutely nothing wrong with a regulation that requires tourists to get a work permit if they work online, they won't mind a trip or two to immigration to do just that because they have plenty of time on their hands if they are going to tour Thailand for a few months to a few years.  The labour department can get revenues from the fees and these tourists won't mind paying because Thailand is cheap and some of them would boast that they work online.  The tax department can also determine if these tourists need to be taxed, more revenue for the government.  These tourists will be happy to give, the government departments here will be happy to take, a win-win for both. ????

 

1 hour ago, Happy Grumpy said:

People have been connecting with work whilst on holiday for as long as there has been work and holidays. ???? Well, professionals, maybe not miners and taxi drivers.

 

If someone needs to make contact with work for 1 or 2 hours a day whilst on holiday, they should stay at home because of it? ????

You don't have to be a professional to be connected, you have no idea who else are connected.  I have a few computer displays stacked on top of each other at home and I don't even call that work.  What for when I am just a retiree ....

 

[farangx]

1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

They do it, because living here is often much better, in terms of quality-of-life vs overhead, than one's passport country. 

 

Contributing to the local economy is simply the Thai benefit to the arrangement - why they should care, since it isn't their job to care about our well-being, as their top-priority should be maximizing opportunities for their own citizenry. 

 

Spare me this contributing to the local economy BS.  Living here is dirt cheap. Fact is the rules are lax, and can easily be abused or overlooked by giving the right officials money.  But don't say they are corrupted because it takes both hands to clap.  Foreigners are here to take advantage of these. They both need one another!

 

1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

There are dozens of countries happy to have people "supporting local economies," by staying on repeat tourist-visas and/or other visas/extensions - precisely because it's a "win-win" policy in the best-interest of their own citizens.  Three in SE Asia, alone, do this.

I can name you 3 countries in SE Asia (HK, Malaysia and Singapore) that without the proper visas you can forget about working there.  Try bribing and working as a tourist, you can see what happened if you are caught.  And yes I'd worked in all these countries before.????

 

[Happy Grumpy]

31 minutes ago, farangx said:

So because I don't know which gov dept issues work permit

????

 

 

Welcome to the level of poster telling people that tourists here should need a WP if they log into their non-Thai company's website. ????

[farangx]

52 minutes ago, Happy Grumpy said:

????

 

 

Welcome to the level of poster telling people that tourists here should need a WP if they log into their non-Thai company's website. ????

You don't seem to even get the gist of what I been saying about the WP.  First I have to decline your welcome because I did not tell people that tourists here should need a WP.  Rather I want the labor department (or whatever department handling this) to have a regulation that a WP is required from tourists that work online or otherwise, ie. via telephone (phone sex), via video (internet porn), you get the drift?  I don't like "should need".  I am on a different level. I prefer "must have" because it has oomph/power and that opens up whole new possibilities that come in the form of agent fees, unofficial fees, department revenues and other non-specified fees of whatever kinds.  

 

Also, I showed no bias on the types of website they logged on to as long as they are work related, eg. they could be googling the whole weekend to complete a company proposal, cut and paste from emails and other webpages of any sort.

 

Is this too deep for you, can you still follow? .... ????

 

[lkv]

Again, we are applying faulty logic. Western logic in Thailand.

 

Thailand (and major cities in particular), are only sort of developed when it comes to condominiums and shopping malls. Other than that, it's a bit over Cambodia, law wise.

 

Tax laws - my money is always spent one year after it has been earned. 

 

All the Thai elite does the same.

 

Online work - not enforced unless in bigger groups that attract attention and some Thai neighbor grasses.

 

They should call it "visitor visa" like in some other countries, then we would not have these never ending arguments of what a tourist should do.

 

It is kind of a visitor visa, since 2015 you are allowed to perform certain activities on a tourist visa, trade fairs, conferences and all that. It's not all about spending baht as a tourist as a previous poster has mentioned.

[balo]

4 hours ago, farangx said:

Rather I want the labor department (or whatever department handling this) to have a regulation that a WP is required from tourists that work online or otherwise, ie. via telephone (phone sex), via video (internet porn), you get the drift? 

So if I want to send a business e-mail to my friend in Europe or chat with him about business on Facebook you suggest I need a special WP ? After all it's "online work". 

 

I can promise you that will never happen as long as internet exist. 

 

 

[simon43]

Rather I want the labor department (or whatever department handling this) to have a regulation that a WP is required from tourists that work online or otherwise,

 

Well, I'm sure many long-term digital nomads would love to have a work permit.  The problem is that under current Thai law, there is no work permit option for 'freelancers'.  Umbrella companies such as Iglu require the freelancer to physically work from their office, not located at homes throughout the country.

 

IMHO, the authorities are missing out on an income stream because there is no visa or work permit option for digital nomads.

[ExpatDraco]

 

 

25 minutes ago, simon43 said:

Quote

Umbrella companies such as Iglu require the freelancer to physically work from their office, not located at homes throughout the country.

 

That's no requirement afaik. They provide office space, but you can work from home if you want to.

 

 

 

[LivinLOS]

12 hours ago, direction BANGKOK said:

This is such a confusing topic.

 

Let's take two scenarios to show you what I mean.

 

1) A business man comes to Thailand for vacation, and while here gets on phone calls and on internet and makes money. Working illegally? If you answered no, what if the cacation was extended a few months? 

 

2) A youtuber makes videos while in Thailand, all videos are not monetized. He gets home and monetizes them. Working illegally? 

1) yes working illegally.. Of course a 14 day work permit exemption is easily available should it be requested and theres clearly issues about 'performing work' versus 'managing investments or staff' and other listed exceptions (export, MICE, trade shows) but broad strokes its a violation. 

2) no (with again caveats) How the Dept of Labour have defined it the act of monetising the account is how they have defined when its for hobby / enjoyment and when its for work. The clear outcome of this is that it comes down to 'intent' which is a common legal aspect worldwide and as always is hard to prove. 

[LivinLOS]

4 hours ago, simon43 said:

 

 

 

Well, I'm sure many long-term digital nomads would love to have a work permit.  The problem is that under current Thai law, there is no work permit option for 'freelancers'.  Umbrella companies such as Iglu require the freelancer to physically work from their office, not located at homes throughout the country.

 

IMHO, the authorities are missing out on an income stream because there is no visa or work permit option for digital nomads.

Not the way it is I am told, there is the registered workplace and can work elsewhere. 

Everyone keeps talking about the 'missing the income stream' yet when presented with fairly small costs for exactly the service they want, write it off as being a poor deal.. No deal beats illegal / free. 

[LivinLOS]

14 hours ago, Happy Grumpy said:

If you cannot differentiate between these, you obviously haven't a clue what you're on about and your comments are only worthy of a laugh. ???? 

 

 

Thanks for the laugh. ????

Of course I can differentiate.. However they were formally and legally charged with working (online) without a work permit. 

How can they be charged with something your claiming isnt a crime ?? 

[JackThompson]

11 hours ago, farangx said:

Spare me this contributing to the local economy BS.  Living here is dirt cheap. Fact is the rules are lax, and can easily be abused or overlooked by giving the right officials money.  But don't say they are corrupted because it takes both hands to clap.  Foreigners are here to take advantage of these. They both need one another!

In my experience - for a Non-O stamp and a Marriage-based extension, for which I had every requirement met and more - my option was "pay us off via an agent" or "no service for you."  I went out to an MFA-run Thai consulate for a Visa, to avoid immigration's corruption - so did not "clap" with their crooked hand.

 

I advise you to speak with Thais whose income derives from Western people frequenting the restaurants, guesthouses, etc where they work.  They will tell you exactly how damaging immigration's policies are, and how thankful they are for our presence in the country - how much better the money is serving us, than the gigs supporting "tour group" types.  We are also welcomed up-country, where life is indeed less expensive, but our foreign-sourced income contributions are even more significant to the locals.

 

11 hours ago, farangx said:

I can name you 3 countries in SE Asia (HK, Malaysia and Singapore) that without the proper visas you can forget about working there.  Try bribing and working as a tourist, you can see what happened if you are caught.  And yes I'd worked in all these countries before.????

I would never suggest one take a Thai job without a work-permit.  As to Westerners who do this, it is primarily as English teaching.  I do not condone this, but it is sad that so many schools deceive foreign English teachers - telling them it is "ok" to work without a permit for months, before they maybe get around to supplying the proper paperwork.  When I first moved to Issan, I was asked if I would do some part-time teaching.  I said I would not consider it w/o a work-permit, and never heard anything about this again (not my thing, anyway).

 

As to HK, Malaysia, and SG, those are not good places for someone with an offshore-income to stay for any period of time, unless working a job there, or meeting particular conditions. 

Cambodia, Vietnam, and The Philippines would be the best locations in SE Asia for longer-term folks, given easy permits-of-stay in all of them.  But, even in Thailand, with its relatively strict work-laws, no one is prosecuted for using their brain and the Internet/phone, to do work on foreign computers, or manage a business operating in a foreign country.

[JackThompson]

 

4 hours ago, ExpatDraco said:

4 hours ago, simon43 said:

Quote

Umbrella companies such as Iglu require the freelancer to physically work from their office, not located at homes throughout the country.

That's no requirement afaik. They provide office space, but you can work from home if you want to.

Correct - can work from home. 

 

The "extras" cost (under-the-table) of getting the Non-B Visa and Work-Permit appear to be high, given the total-overhead they charge ($750 USD/mo for Iglu minimum - just checked).  The only reason to do it at all, would be for a Non-B Visa/extension for an under-50 person - saving the trouble of maintaining Tourist Visa stays. 

 

The Elite is a "less bad" - but still very raw-deal - by far.  Especially if young, much better to live in Cambodia, The PI, or Vietnam, and invest the cost-savings of the Elite or Iglu offers - and retire a much wealthier person at a much younger age.

 

17 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

Everyone keeps talking about the 'missing the income stream' yet when presented with fairly small costs for exactly the service they want, write it off as being a poor deal.. No deal beats illegal / free. 

What iglu and similar charge is not "small" at all -  30% of "gross revenue" on a minimum $2500/mo - for an "invoicing service" and personal income-taxes - before you have even paid your overseas staff, etc?  That is a non-starter. 

 

Reasonable "fairly small costs" would be a Non-B Visa/extension based on paying Thai taxes on a minimum personal-income, transferred into the country in the year-earned. 

[farangx]

5 hours ago, simon43 said:

 

 

 

Well, I'm sure many long-term digital nomads would love to have a work permit.  The problem is that under current Thai law, there is no work permit option for 'freelancers'.  Umbrella companies such as Iglu require the freelancer to physically work from their office, not located at homes throughout the country.

 

IMHO, the authorities are missing out on an income stream because there is no visa or work permit option for digital nomads.

Oh, my bad, I had in mind a Temporary WP for tourists, which is a permission to work while on a tourist visa, that way they get to keep their tourist visa. This is unlike those who stay in Thaliand on a Work Permit visa.  This temporary WP enables digital nomads to keep their nomadic life.  That way tourists get to remain as tourist and nomads remain as nomad with no disruption to their life style.

 

The word "Temporary" should be stamped on the passport. It makes the IO job easier, he can say to the tourist "You been temporary this for 90 days, another 90 days will make you permanent, you should go home."

 

[farangx]

6 hours ago, balo said:

So if I want to send a business e-mail to my friend in Europe or chat with him about business on Facebook you suggest I need a special WP ? After all it's "online work". 

 

I can promise you that will never happen as long as internet exist. 

 

 

As a tourist, you can don't need this special or Temporary WP.  You can always keep quiet, pretend you don't know.  You don't actually think that someone staying long term in Thailand on tourists visa tells the IO that he is staying here long term and not touring? .... ????

 

[farangx]

2 hours ago, JackThompson said:

As to HK, Malaysia, and SG, those are not good places for someone with an offshore-income to stay for any period of time, unless working a job there, or meeting particular conditions. 

Cambodia, Vietnam, and The Philippines would be the best locations in SE Asia for longer-term folks, given easy permits-of-stay in all of them.  But, even in Thailand, with its relatively strict work-laws, no one is prosecuted for using their brain and the Internet/phone, to do work on foreign computers, or manage a business operating in a foreign country.

Bottom line is, it is not good when one finds the country not affordable and out of reach.  Otherwise what is there not to like living in HK, Malaysia and Singapore? No pot holes on road, no visa runs, no 90 day reportings, no yearly extensions, no money seasoning, no sorting out income statements, locals with lower IQs etc.?  I can't see why people will missed these.

 

Foreigners like it here because of the corruptions and getting things done with money, and also to live their life on a budget.  If Thailand were to have regulations and enforcement similar to those of HK, Malaysia and Singapore, this forum will be the first to go. ????