How about Vietnam?

[Brunolem]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

China and Vietnam appeared perfectly open and free to me, compared quite well to the tyrannical gynocracy that is the UK for freedom IMHO. Just different things you aren't allowed to do, I prefer the restrictions in Thailand/China/Vietnam to the restrictions in the UK.

In these countries, freedom is curtailed openly, whereas in the West freedom is tolerated as long as long as it doesn't interfere with the grand scheme of things.

 

Come a Brexit or a Trump, and freedom becomes untolerable for the real powers, who are not the elected puppets.

 

There is talk of impeachment, of a new referendum, and of course of foreign interference because the sheep are not supposed to rebel.

 

It wouldn't be surprising to see Brexit postponed, or even cancelled, before March is upon us...there are limits to freedom after all...

 

 

[Ban Phe Dezza]

2 hours ago, Brunolem said:

Let me amend this statement: ...unlike many of the pretenders/posters on Thai Visa...

 

The general rule is that really wealthy people don't come spontaneously forward to mention their good fortune, but rather prefer to remain silent about it, for obvious reasons.

 

It is like the guys who are always talking about their success with women...the talking is necessary to compensate for the lack of real activity...

So very true mate.  just like the seals, SAS MI 5 or Mi 6 guys at the Bars one comes across in the bars  a bunch of <deleted>. those who have been at the sharp end say the least

[Ban Phe Dezza]

2 hours ago, possum1931 said:

That would have been in a childrens ward, right?

YES I was eight  Funny thing i went home same day and had Ice cream many years later I needed a repeat op and was pissed of when the gave me Dry toast 55 55

[ryane66]

One bright spot for Vietnam is the PISA scores of their students . Education is the key to a good future. Based on this Vietnam has a much brighter future than Thailand. Vietnam is in the top 10 in Science and Math. Thailand in the bottom half of all countries.

 

[sawadee1947]

I've been to Hanoi and Saigon a couple of times. 

I never get the feeling of being unsafe. And it was never a problem to cross a busy street in Hanoi. Because people respect each other in terms of traffic. Every biker with a helmet following traffic rules. And ability of speaking English and French is an advantage. Food was not cheap indeed. 

[sawadee1947]

2 hours ago, Brunolem said:

In these countries, freedom is curtailed openly, whereas in the West freedom is tolerated as long as long as it doesn't interfere with the grand scheme of things.

 

Come a Brexit or a Trump, and freedom becomes untolerable for the real powers, who are not the elected puppets.

 

There is talk of impeachment, of a new referendum, and of course of foreign interference because the sheep are not supposed to rebel.

 

It wouldn't be surprising to see Brexit postponed, or even cancelled, before March is upon us...there are limits to freedom after all...

 

 

Sorry I can't find the connection to Vietnam. So what is your point? 

[Nyezhov]

On 12/30/2018 at 8:07 PM, scorecard said:

Overall there is respect for the law, way ahead of Thailand.

Its Communist. Unless absolutely necessary, I wont step foot in a Communist country.

[William Miller]

On 12/30/2018 at 9:46 PM, marcusarelus said:

Per capita GDP is 300% greater in Thailand.  $2,303  vs $6,663.  Vietnam is not in the same league.  Vietnam has 23 vehicles per 1000 people Thailand has 225.  It is like comparing the stone age to modernity. 

 

https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/vietnam/thailand?sc=XE15

Vietnam , GDP is smaller because a vast majority  of the people still live in rural areas  and are rice farmers , howecver the dvelopment that is  continuing is staggering as is year on year growth . Cities like Danang have 211st Centuries Hospitals  example  Vinacom Hospital , state of the art ..  Beautiful beaches and hinterland  lively expat scene 

[leggo]

I have lived for the last four years in Vietnam albeit Hanoi which is totally different from Saigon - no one calls it Ho chi minh in the south. But i know it well. Visas are easy but long term quite expensive. Food in the south is good, not so much in the north. Weather pretty much like Thailand but much more susceptible to cyclones. People are pretty much the same everywhere but as a farang you will definitely be more hassled in Vietnamese cities than in Thailand. Infrastructure is not nearly so advanced as Thailand nor is healthcare. Rents and food on a par. Plastic and rubbish pollution even worse although Thai's seem more cleanliness conscious . construction absolutely everywhere which brings dirt and noise and a complete disregard for the environment. I know Thailand from 30 years ago and if I had a choice would prefer to live there but horses for courses. Vietnamese is far more difficult to learn than Thai even though they write in Arabic script. Vietnamese coffee is to die for, scooters in Vietnam are a pain in the ass! Who knows, they have both added so much to my experience of Asia it's not an easy choice. On the whole I find Thai people more to my taste and the government in Vietnam might not be to everyone's taste although it doesn't bother me.

[Brunolem]

21 minutes ago, William Miller said:

Vietnam , GDP is smaller because a vast majority  of the people still live in rural areas  and are rice farmers , howecver the dvelopment that is  continuing is staggering as is year on year growth . Cities like Danang have 211st Centuries Hospitals  example  Vinacom Hospital , state of the art ..  Beautiful beaches and hinterland  lively expat scene 

You are right, GDP is not a good indicator.

One could also argue that per capita GDP is higher in Thailand than in China, so obviously Thailand is more of a powerhouse than China...or maybe not...

[leggo]

21 minutes ago, William Miller said:

Vietnam , GDP is smaller because a vast majority  of the people still live in rural areas  and are rice farmers , howecver the dvelopment that is  continuing is staggering as is year on year growth . Cities like Danang have 211st Centuries Hospitals  example  Vinacom Hospital , state of the art ..  Beautiful beaches and hinterland  lively expat scene 

Beautiful beaches? Not really unless you like rubbish and over development. I've been to Danang loads of times and the coast line has been completely destroyed. It's newer and cleaner than Hanoi or Saigon but gets hit regularly with terrible weather in the rainy season.

[allanos]

On 12/31/2018 at 5:50 AM, Brunolem said:

GDP is very unreliable obsession, that doesn't reflect the health of a country's economy, but rather the mental health of its leaders. 

 

China is a good example of that, announcing a year in advance a GDP growth of 6.9%, then publishing every quarter a growth that exactly matches the predictions, more or less 0.1%...all that in a 1.4 billion people economy! 

 

And the hapless journalists gobble all that with their mouth wide open, before serving it back to the credulous crowds... 

 

One of the many problems with GDP is that it doesn't take debt into consideration... it is like looking at the assets side of a balance sheet, while ignoring the liabilities side! 

 

The US is very good at using this "loophole", claiming a wonderful GDP growth, while keeping silence on a debt growing at twice the GDP rate, or more... 

Not strictly true, because the USA, along with the rest of the world publishes its debt:gdp ratio, which is a more accurate barometer of a country's health.  At around 107, the USA is caught in a debt trap.  Anything over about 90 is simply not sustainable.  But America will simply print more dollars beyond the $21Tn that it has already printed, and the American people will simply become poorer, year on year.  Strike that last, USA debt is closer to $22Tn!

 

Take a look at debt clocks around the world: http://www.usdebtclock.org/world-debt-clock.html

[SiamAndy]

5 minutes ago, leggo said:

I have lived for the last four years in Vietnam albeit Hanoi which is totally different from Saigon - no one calls it Ho chi minh in the south. But i know it well. Visas are easy but long term quite expensive. Food in the south is good, not so much in the north. Weather pretty much like Thailand but much more susceptible to cyclones. People are pretty much the same everywhere but as a farang you will definitely be more hassled in Vietnamese cities than in Thailand. Infrastructure is not nearly so advanced as Thailand nor is healthcare. Rents and food on a par. Plastic and rubbish pollution even worse although Thai's seem more cleanliness conscious . construction absolutely everywhere which brings dirt and noise and a complete disregard for the environment. I know Thailand from 30 years ago and if I had a choice would prefer to live there but horses for courses. Vietnamese is far more difficult to learn than Thai even though they write in Arabic script. Vietnamese coffee is to die for, scooters in Vietnam are a pain in the ass! Who knows, they have both added so much to my experience of Asia it's not an easy choice. On the whole I find Thai people more to my taste and the government in Vietnam might not be to everyone's taste although it doesn't bother me.

How much does it cost to rent a scooter on a monthly basis in Hanoi or Saigon? In CM TL the cost is 2000 Baht. 

[moana]

On 12/31/2018 at 2:05 PM, Brunolem said:

How does that compare with Cambodia, which also offers high rates, yet not that high these days? 

You can get 8% in Cambodia on USD term deposits. Even more on Riel deposits, if you're willing to take the currency risk (it's been pretty stable actually, but I still prefer to deposit in USD). Note that in Cambodia the interest gains are taxed at 6% (residents) or 14% (non-residents). In Vietnam they are tax exempt.

 

[Kaoboi Bebobp]

10 minutes ago, leggo said:

I have lived for the last four years in Vietnam albeit Hanoi which is totally different from Saigon - no one calls it Ho chi minh in the south. But i know it well. Visas are easy but long term quite expensive. Food in the south is good, not so much in the north. Weather pretty much like Thailand but much more susceptible to cyclones. People are pretty much the same everywhere but as a farang you will definitely be more hassled in Vietnamese cities than in Thailand. Infrastructure is not nearly so advanced as Thailand nor is healthcare. Rents and food on a par. Plastic and rubbish pollution even worse although Thai's seem more cleanliness conscious . construction absolutely everywhere which brings dirt and noise and a complete disregard for the environment. I know Thailand from 30 years ago and if I had a choice would prefer to live there but horses for courses. Vietnamese is far more difficult to learn than Thai even though they write in Arabic script. Vietnamese coffee is to die for, scooters in Vietnam are a pain in the ass! Who knows, they have both added so much to my experience of Asia it's not an easy choice. On the whole I find Thai people more to my taste and the government in Vietnam might not be to everyone's taste although it doesn't bother me.

 

I've been living in Vung Tau for most of two years, plus some Mekong Delta time in 2011-2012. I pretty much agree with all of your statements. And I particularly like your balanced summation: "they have both added so much to my experience of Asia it's not an easy choice." 

 

I'm not going to rate Thailand over Vietnam or Vietnam over Thailand. They're rich in cultures and well, they each do stuff different. I've benefited from exposure to both. 

 

However, I am considering moving back to Thailand, as a base, with occasional one-month stays in VN. Lots of things I don't like in Thailand but I do like the access to a greater variety of food, local, foreigner-made and imported. I prefer the accommodations in Thailand. And, if I must, declare that Thai girls are overall prettier and more down to earth. Just about everyone I know here who has been to Thailand agrees with this. Yet, the Viet girls are better educated, friendly, outgoing and often have better English. But  . . . fill in your own preferences. 

 

It must be the many years spent in Thailand but every time I arrive at Bangkok airport, I feel at home.  

 

[Brunolem]

20 minutes ago, allanos said:

Not strictly true, because the USA, along with the rest of the world publishes its debt:gdp ratio, which is a more accurate barometer of a country's health.  At around 107, the USA is caught in a debt trap.  Anything over about 90 is simply not sustainable.  But America will simply print more dollars beyond the $21Tn that it has already printed, and the American people will simply become poorer, year on year.  Strike that last, USA debt is closer to $22Tn!

 

Take a look at debt clocks around the world: http://www.usdebtclock.org/world-debt-clock.html

And that's only the public debt, and that doesn't count the unfunded liabilities (retirement pensions, social security...).

 

As in many other countries, the real debt to GDP ratio is somewhere between 250 and 350%...again not counting the unfunded liabilities...

 

This is why most currencies appear to be stable relative to each other...because they shrink together, at more or less the same pace...

[Brunolem]

9 minutes ago, moana said:

You can get 8% in Cambodia on USD term deposits. Even more on Riel deposits, if you're willing to take the currency risk (it's been pretty stable actually, but I still prefer to deposit in USD). Note that in Cambodia the interest gains are taxed at 6% (residents) or 14% (non-residents). In Vietnam they are tax exempt.

 

I opened a thread about this, a year or two ago, and was not able to find a member who would acknowedge having opened such an account in Cambodia, which led me to think that this was not really safe.

[madmen]

And Thailand is in the grip of a military junta where the people have no rights at all.

Can't see the difference really, China and Vietnam appeared perfectly open and free to me, compared quite well to the tyrannical gynocracy that is the UK for freedom IMHO. Just different things you aren't allowed to do, I prefer the restrictions in Thailand/China/Vietnam to the restrictions in the UK.

Human rights in communist Vietnam is abysmal. Make the junta controlled thailand look like Disney land in comparison

 

[sfokevin]

On 12/30/2018 at 8:07 PM, scorecard said:

Overall there is respect for the law, way ahead of Thailand.

The problem with that is that it takes forever to get anywhere by car on the highways because everyone seems content to go the speed limit... 

[marcusarelus]

55 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

You are right, GDP is not a good indicator.

One could also argue that per capita GDP is higher in Thailand than in China, so obviously Thailand is more of a powerhouse than China...or maybe not...

Per capita GDP China $8,830. Per capita GDP Thailand $6593. Per capita GDP Vietnam $2343.  Per capita GDP Cambodia $1384.  UK $39,720.  Australia 53,799 Switzerland 80,189.  ????

[moana]

18 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

was not able to find a member who would acknowedge having opened such an account in Cambodia, which led me to think that this was not really safe.

Interesting way to determine safety... I wouldn't trust TV members when they do acknowledge threads, so even less so when they don't ????

 

Cambodian banks and MFIs are forced to publish detailed, externally-audited financial reports annually/quarterly (usually audited by internationally recognized firms such as EY), which are available to download on their websites. You can download these reports and analyze them independently, if you like, and determine the resilience and "safety" of each organization. You can also ask the question in more Cambodian-focused forums.

 

Naturally there's also the risk of governmental destabilization, which is quite real in Cambodia (as in Thailand), but also has its mitigating factors (as in Thailand).

[Brunolem]

35 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Per capita GDP China $8,830. Per capita GDP Thailand $6593. Per capita GDP Vietnam $2343.  Per capita GDP Cambodia $1384.  UK $39,720.  Australia 53,799 Switzerland 80,189.  ????

So what?

According to these GDP figures, Australia is six times "stronger" than China...and yet which of these two countries relies the most on the other to keep its economy humming?

 

 

[marcusarelus]

33 minutes ago, moana said:

Interesting way to determine safety... I wouldn't trust TV members when they do acknowledge threads, so even less so when they don't ????

 

Cambodian banks and MFIs are forced to publish detailed, externally-audited financial reports annually/quarterly (usually audited by internationally recognized firms such as EY), which are available to download on their websites. You can download these reports and analyze them independently, if you like, and determine the resilience and "safety" of each organization. You can also ask the question in more Cambodian-focused forums.

 

Naturally there's also the risk of governmental destabilization, which is quite real in Cambodia (as in Thailand), but also has its mitigating factors (as in Thailand).

B2 vs BBB+  You can't really compare the two countries now can you?  Cambodia is highly speculative non investment grade.  On the come out roll a pass line bet has a 2 to 1 player advantage over the house.  I only mention that because if you want to put money into Cambodia maybe better to shoot dice. 

[losworld]

4 hours ago, Brunolem said:

In these countries, freedom is curtailed openly, whereas in the West freedom is tolerated as long as long as it doesn't interfere with the grand scheme of things.

 

Come a Brexit or a Trump, and freedom becomes untolerable for the real powers, who are not the elected puppets.

 

There is talk of impeachment, of a new referendum, and of course of foreign interference because the sheep are not supposed to rebel.

es...there are limits to freedom after all...

 

 

I have always said we have the illusion of freedom in the west until it is challenged agains the rulers.  It is like a bad insurance policy that promises the world until it is time to collect.

[marcusarelus]

18 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

So what?

According to these GDP figures, Australia is six times "stronger" than China...and yet which of these two countries relies the most on the other to keep its economy humming?

According to the above figures the average Australian has 6 times as much money as the average Chinese.  GDP is used to measure the people's well being as well as economic activity per person. 

 

GDP per capita, by design an indicator of the total income generated by economic activity in a country, is often used as a measure of people’s material well-being. However, not all of this income necessarily ends up in the purse of households. Some may be appropriated by government to build up sovereign wealth funds or to pay off debts, some may be appropriated by firms to build up balance sheets, and yet some may be appropriated by parent companies abroad repatriating profits from their affiliates. At the same time, households can also receive income from abroad for example from dividends and interest receipts through investments abroad.

http://oecdinsights.org/2016/10/06/gdp-per-capita-households-material-well-being/

 

When debating economic well being of countries to say GDP per capita is irrelevant is just nuts. 

 

 

 

Edited January 1, 2019 by marcusarelus

[from the home of CC]

On 12/31/2018 at 5:32 AM, Brunolem said:

You also have to take the trend into consideration, as well as wealth inequality. 

 

Thailand has a higher GDP, but sadly it's all in the hands of a lucky few families. 

 

As for the cars, the lesser the better... 

and in Thailand most of the cars are owned by the bank as well as anything else in value, very few own anything outright.

 

[BritManToo]

36 minutes ago, losworld said:

I have always said we have the illusion of freedom in the west until it is challenged agains the rulers. 

As I said, try having a serious disagreement with your western wife and see what happens.

Broke and homeless.

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, madmen said:

Human rights in communist Vietnam is abysmal. Make the junta controlled thailand look like Disney land in comparison

 

 

OK, but keep in mind Vietnam is no longer an old style communist country, it's now a mix of selected civil society factors and capitalism.

 

Yes the government keeps up the thin mask of communism but it's nothing more than that, a thin mask.

 

Ask the people, they are happy with all of the above. 

 

 

 

[scorecard]

26 minutes ago, from the home of CC said:

and in Thailand most of the cars are owned by the bank as well as anything else in value, very few own anything outright.

 

Good point.

[JimmyJ]

1 hour ago, moana said:

Interesting way to determine safety... I wouldn't trust TV members when they do acknowledge threads, so even less so when they don't ????

 

Cambodian banks and MFIs are forced to publish detailed, externally-audited financial reports annually/quarterly (usually audited by internationally recognized firms such as EY), which are available to download on their websites. You can download these reports and analyze them independently, if you like, and determine the resilience and "safety" of each organization. You can also ask the question in more Cambodian-focused forums.

 

Naturally there's also the risk of governmental destabilization, which is quite real in Cambodia (as in Thailand), but also has its mitigating factors (as in Thailand).

Interesting information.

 

Is it difficult for a foreigner to open a bank account in Vietnam and Cambodia to take advantage of those interest rates?

Are those accounts insured?

 

Have you looked into Laotian banks or those of other neighboring countries? Comparable interest rates in any?

Edited January 1, 2019 by JimmyJ