Update: New Thai immigration rules for income!

[Pattaya46]

1 hour ago, jackdd said:

I assume you manupilate facts to spread wrong information because you .... i seriously don't know why, maybe that's what you believe, but what you say is wrong

I just looked the document up, that's how the part that you quoted actually looks like:

So as we can see the "Euros" part is to be completed by the applicant, and the "THB" part by the embassy.

You made it look like the THB part is to be filled in by the applicant for Thai income, but this is just not true.

Actually you can only use income that's in Euros for this declaration. Any income in other currencies that you might convert yourself to Euros and then put on the form might be correct for this month, but not for other months, so if you do this you are actually making a false declaration of your income. Even though they didn't specifally write it, this income declaration is most likely just for income in Euros, and not other income.

In the US the fine for this is jail, i don't know what it is in France, but maybe similar, so good look if this is what you are doing or have been doing ????

 

Edit: You could probably rent out for example a condo in Thailand for a fixed Euro amount of rent instead of THB, this would be in compliance with this document

What are you talking about??? 

The question was to know if there was a "revenues from France" condition on French Embassy letters, similar to the "revenues from USA"  on the USA Embassy letter.

The answer is simple : No.

 

You can quibble if you want that only revenues in Euro should be in such a form, but even that would not means revenues from France.

FYI I have revenues in EUR, USD and THB, and have been said years ago to just write equivalent in EUR of my total income. K.I.S.S. 

[david555]

12 minutes ago, ParadiseLost said:

Have you experienced problems? I have transferred money to Australia on occasion and never had an issue. Most at once was 14k AUD.

officially only possible with a work permit and eventual extra doc. or a foreign exchange doc from inbound money transfer for specific reasons , or if a Thai person can do for the foreigner ( eg. gf or wife ) or if the bank responsible manager is easy person , you know T.I.t ….depending branch or desk or even day by day thing

[Lovethailandelite]

Just now, TPI said:

I don't think it matters where the money comes from just so long as it appears in your account!

According too amendments to the Police order 138/2557 concerning the proof of funds when using the income method for extensions, it will need to come from a Foreign source too a Thai bank account.

[Jim7777]

20 hours ago, Spidey said:

I still wonder how you prove that the 65k baht is from your home country. Foreign transfers aren't always clear in some bank books.

It's actually really really easy just ask for what's called a credit advice from your bank.  Every month when I make my wire transfer to Bangkok bank after it posts to the account I go have my pass book updated and I ask for the credit advice print out.  The credit advice print out very clearly shows that the funds came from my bank in the states and it even shows the name of my bank in the states, the amount I transferred in Thai baht, and my name and Bangkok bank account number including my account number for my bank in the states that it originated from as well as the name of my bank in the states that it originated from.  The credit advice is absolutely perfect because it verifies everything and it proves where your money is coming from.  

 

I figured this was where things were going so I started doing that last month and now I do it every month.  For me it worked out perfectly because I just renewed my extension for 2019 into 2020 a little early in December using my income affidavit for the last time and it was accepted with no problems.  If this is true and I suspect it probably is what I'm doing to prepare is exactly right or I might be doing to much but it's better to be prepared than wait till the last minute to find out that you should have been doing something.  I'm on a marriage visa but my pension is over $4,000 U.S. dollars a month so I just transfer half my monthly pay into Bangkok bank every month which is well over the minimum amount for either the retirement visa or the marriage visa.  Normally between 67 and 70,000 baht a month that I transfer into Bangkok bank, and I'm only required to transfer 40,000 baht a month plus I'm actually saving a lot of money in ATM fees by doing it this way so I'm actually glad this is happening.  It cost me about $20 dollars a month to make my monthly wire transfer but I make all that money back and more considering what I save in 0 ATM withdrawal fees depending on the exchange rate fluctuations of course.  So this actually works great for me in my situation at least.  

 

I have contacts at my local immigration office as well and I've heard exactly the same thing from them including what ubonjoe added about the minimum income requirement for marriage visas.  It really does look like this is where it's going so I'll be prepared I was very lucky on the timing of it.  

 

Basically it sounds like the law isn't going to change but it's going to be modified, and obviously it'll have to be since the income affidavits are being phased out.  It's unconfirmed but this is what I've been hearing from the embassy and my local immigration office as well and beginning in 2020 as the op said and this is exactly what I'm expecting will happen and have been expecting would happen.  

 

I remember I spoke with you a few months ago and I told you that the monthly income requirement wasn't gonna change, and there's no reason why it would.  I remember you were one of the people trying to say that it would change to the lump sum option only lol.  Only the method of verifying your monthly income is going to change obviously.  I think it's actually a good change because I've found that I'm actually saving money by using my Thai bank account because now I don't have to worry about how many times a month I use the ATM and the 220 baht fees.  The exchange rate for the U.S. Dollar used to better I remember from 10 years ago when we used to visit here all the time from our Tokyo days but it's still doing pretty good compared to a few other particular currencies and so is the Euro.  In December when I did my first wire transfer I actually gained a little bit, but this month I lost a few hundred baht after I made my monthly wire transfer but I'm transferring about $2,100 dollars a month and that fluctuates from month to month based on the currency exchange rate.  My monthly wire transfers average about half of my total monthly pension payments and the rest of it left over in my US Bank account I try to just save.  You still can't beat the cost of living here.  

 

But anyway the answer to your question is get a credit advice print out from your Thai bank every month and it totally verifies where your wire transfer originated from, the amount, account numbers of both your home bank account and your Thai bank account, your name as long as the transfer was made under your name, and even the name of your bank in the states or wherever your home bank is.  The credit advice verifies it all, just have one printed at the bank once a month every month after you make your monthly wire transfers.  My monthly wire transfers usually take 3 or 4 days to post to Bangkok bank so it's just one extra thing I have to do but no big deal.  My bank in the states just needs the swift code, account number, and the Bangkok bank branch number and address of the Bangkok bank branch when I make my monthly wire transfers every month it's a little bit of a hassle but it's not too much trouble.  

 

But it sounds like what I'm doing to be prepared for 2020 is probably exactly what I should be doing to prepare for the future of income verification.  Like I said I've already renewed my extension for 2019 through 2020 a little early so now I'm just making sure that I'm prepared for 2020 when I go do it again.  

 

Like I said it's super easy to get I have one printed out every month after I make my monthly wire transfers the day after it posts to my Bangkok bank account.  There's always a way to get something done don't look for reasons why it can't happen look for ways you can get things done.  I remember I told you this was coming I knew it.  

[elephant45]

They dont want us here anymore, period.

[ParadiseLost]

11 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

You sound confused?
Income Tax statements can be used by people that are 'working in Thailand' and you are paying tax in 'Thailand'.
If your NOT paying tax and working in Thailand, then you will need to transfer the funds, EVERY MONTH for 12 months before your extension from a foreign bank account to a Thai bank account 

You're dead right I'm confused...

 

Until today, married for 13 years, I have been under the impression you need to prove where income originates: so if you work in-country you need a WP, tax receipts, and if you work outside the country you need an embassy letter - confirming you are employed. (I suspect this is where my confusion lay!)

 

if you transfer money from outside the country, you are saying being employed is not a requirement?

 

I use the 400k option but could be interested in transferring the 40k. (I definitely do not work here, legally or otherwise).

 

But I do think this opens the door for someone to work illegally - just transfer the money out and back. (Unless that has always been the case.) ????

[ParadiseLost]

23 minutes ago, david555 said:

officially only possible with a work permit and eventual extra doc. or a foreign exchange doc from inbound money transfer for specific reasons , or if a Thai person can do for the foreigner ( eg. gf or wife ) or if the bank responsible manager is easy person , you know T.I.t ….depending branch or desk or even day by day thing

I was not asked any questions. Bangkok Bank - just filled out a TT form and it was sent... ????

[jmd8800]

I was wrong: Page 21 on Saturday afternoon.

[eggers]

If this report is correct, why does Thai Immigration make something that is relatively simple, complicated??? Why??  

The simple approach would be to say, have to show have an ANNUAL income of at least 780,000Bht..(65,000 x 12)

Simple!!  

That way, how often the pension payment is transferred is irrelevant!!

Surely, the important thing is to show have sufficient income to support yourself: not how often it's paid!! 

But, no, the bureaucrats have to complicate the matter!! 

[jackdd]

34 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

The question was to know if there was a "revenues from France" condition on French Embassy letters, similar to the "revenues from USA"  on the USA Embassy letter.

The answer is simple : No.

This was never the question. The point of discussion was if it's possible to declare Thai income when using an income affidavit / declaration from the embassy to declare your income.

I gave the example that this was never possible for US citizens, and assumed it is similar for most others.

You said as French citizen that's possible, quoted the relevant document, but skipped on important information. So from your quote it looked like this is possible.

But when looking at the complete document it becomes clear that you can only declare income in Euros on it and declaring income in any other currency would lead to you declaring a wrong monthly income.

So we can conclude that it's not possible for French citizens to declare Thai income on the income declaration.

 

34 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

FYI I have revenues in EUR, USD and THB, and have been said years ago to just write equivalent in EUR of my total income. K.I.S.S. 

Just because you submitted an illegal income declaration all the years doesn't mean it's legal.

 

Edited January 5, 2019 by jackdd

[david555]

18 minutes ago, Jim7777 said:

It's actually really really easy just ask for what's called a credit advice from your bank.  Every month when I make my wire transfer to Bangkok bank after it posts to the account I go have my pass book updated and I ask for the credit advice print out.  The credit advice print out very clearly shows that the funds came from my bank in the states and it even shows the name of my bank in the states, the amount I transferred in Thai baht, and my name and Bangkok bank account number including my account number for my bank in the states that it originated from as well as the name of my bank in the states that it originated from.  The credit advice is absolutely perfect because it verifies everything and it proves where your money is coming from.  

 

I figured this was where things were going so I started doing that last month and now I do it every month.  For me it worked out perfectly because I just renewed my extension for 2019 into 2020 a little early in December using my income affidavit for the last time and it was accepted with no problems.  If this is true and I suspect it probably is what I'm doing to prepare is exactly right or I might be doing to much but it's better to be prepared than wait till the last minute to find out that you should have been doing something.  I'm on a marriage visa but my pension is over $4,000 U.S. dollars a month so I just transfer half my monthly pay into Bangkok bank every month which is well over the minimum amount for either the retirement visa or the marriage visa.  Normally between 67 and 70,000 baht a month that I transfer into Bangkok bank, and I'm only required to transfer 40,000 baht a month plus I'm actually saving a lot of money in ATM fees by doing it this way so I'm actually glad this is happening.  It cost me about $20 dollars a month to make my monthly wire transfer but I make all that money back and more considering what I save in 0 ATM withdrawal fees depending on the exchange rate fluctuations of course.  So this actually works great for me in my situation at least.  

 

I have contacts at my local immigration office as well and I've heard exactly the same thing from them including what ubonjoe added about the minimum income requirement for marriage visas.  It really does look like this is where it's going so I'll be prepared I was very lucky on the timing of it.  

 

Basically it sounds like the law isn't going to change but it's going to be modified, and obviously it'll have to be since the income affidavits are being phased out.  It's unconfirmed but this is what I've been hearing from the embassy and my local immigration office as well and beginning in 2020 as the op said and this is exactly what I'm expecting will happen and have been expecting would happen.  

 

I remember I spoke with you a few months ago and I told you that the monthly income requirement wasn't gonna change, and there's no reason why it would.  I remember you were one of the people trying to say that it would change to the lump sum option only lol.  Only the method of verifying your monthly income is going to change obviously.  I think it's actually a good change because I've found that I'm actually saving money by using my Thai bank account because now I don't have to worry about how many times a month I use the ATM and the 220 baht fees.  The exchange rate for the U.S. Dollar used to better I remember from 10 years ago when we used to visit here all the time from our Tokyo days but it's still doing pretty good compared to a few other particular currencies and so is the Euro.  In December when I did my first wire transfer I actually gained a little bit, but this month I lost a few hundred baht after I made my monthly wire transfer but I'm transferring about $2,100 dollars a month and that fluctuates from month to month based on the currency exchange rate.  My monthly wire transfers average about half of my total monthly pension payments and the rest of it left over in my US Bank account I try to just save.  You still can't beat the cost of living here.  

 

But anyway the answer to your question is get a credit advice print out from your Thai bank every month and it totally verifies where your wire transfer originated from, the amount, account numbers of both your home bank account and your Thai bank account, your name as long as the transfer was made under your name, and even the name of your bank in the states or wherever your home bank is.  The credit advice verifies it all, just have one printed at the bank once a month every month after you make your monthly wire transfers.  My monthly wire transfers usually take 3 or 4 days to post to Bangkok bank so it's just one extra thing I have to do but no big deal.  My bank in the states just needs the swift code, account number, and the Bangkok bank branch number and address of the Bangkok bank branch when I make my monthly wire transfers every month it's a little bit of a hassle but it's not too much trouble.  

 

But it sounds like what I'm doing to be prepared for 2020 is probably exactly what I should be doing to prepare for the future of income verification.  Like I said I've already renewed my extension for 2019 through 2020 a little early so now I'm just making sure that I'm prepared for 2020 when I go do it again.  

 

Like I said it's super easy to get I have one printed out every month after I make my monthly wire transfers the day after it posts to my Bangkok bank account.  There's always a way to get something done don't look for reasons why it can't happen look for ways you can get things done.  I remember I told you this was coming I knew it.  

I can not make your economy's …,but with a more than medium pension I would say that with 1 temporary extension your way , it would be easy to get enough for further ext based on married to Thai at 400 k , so more simple same as ret ext  on the 800 K 

Only the combination method is amputated as now the complementary monthly sum must be proven during the past year ,.... as before only with the letter it was like a credit line as money coming in future period ...that is gone as that was my reserve plan B m for sudden fin. problems

Edited January 5, 2019 by david555

[wobalt]

I was not asked any questions. Bangkok Bank - just filled out a TT form and it was sent... [emoji50]

Same here.
I pay no tax in Thailand because special conditions applied


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Caine]

Glad I’m not and never will be involved in this crap, 6 months UK 6 months Land of Scams purely to escape the British winter, wouldn’t put 10 baht in a Thai bank if they don’t want me here plenty of other countries where the sun ???? shines. 

[Jumbo1968]

Will you be allowed withdraw money from the 65k a month deposit.

[ubonjoe]

5 minutes ago, Jumbo1968 said:

Will you be allowed withdraw money from the 65k a month deposit.

Of course you can. It is for you to live on not to stay in a bank.

[Russell17au]

There is 1 other issue with this and that is the issue of monthly payments into the Thai Bank. Unlike the US, Australia does not pay its pension by the calendar month, if you use an Australian commercial bank then your pension payment is paid at 2 week intervals which is 26 payments for the year. If you use a direct payment from the Reserve Bank of Australia to a Thai bank then you are paid at a 4 weekly interval which is 13 payments. If you take the total yearly payment and divide it by 12 then you meet the requirements but if the enforce the monthly payments then you are below the requirements and if you use the Australian bank and transfer the money then you lose over 2000B every month in transfer fees and withdrawal fees.

[zydeco]

9 hours ago, Lovethailandelite said:

The transcript states 'Every month'.

That doesn't necessarily work for US social security. For example, last August, I received my SS on 3 August for August and on 31 August for September because of a US holiday. And no deposit in September. There are glitches in the system like that. Anyone receiving US SS might want to check their auto deposit with Bangkok Bank and see.

[Jim7777]

21 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

The bank will be able to confirm that. A statement done by them may show it.

It's super easy with Bangkok bank just get a credit advice print out from them every single month throughout the year after your monthly wire transfers post to your Bangkok bank account.  That's what I've started doing last month and I just got one for this month printed out yesterday in fact I just make sure that I get those print outs from Bangkok bank once a month the day after my monthly wire transfer posts to my Bangkok bank account.  

 

Trust me the credit advice print out verifies everything you need perfectly, your name, account numbers for both your bank in the states and your local Thai bank account, the amount of the wire transfer, and even the name of your bank in the states where your wire transfer originated.  That credit advice print out every month should be perfect for proving that your wire transfer originated from your home bank in the states or wherever abroad.  

 

Although my guess is that immigration will probably want to see that in some sort of formal letter from the bank but at least we know that information is on record at Bangkok bank and regardless I'm still gonna continue to have them printed out at Bangkok bank every month at least for my own personal records.  If immigration asks me for something else from my local bank in 2020 then I'll get whatever they want but for now I really think the credit advice print out every month looks perfect as far as verifying everything that immigration will require regarding monthly income verification.  I already got my current extension for 2019 till February 2020 so now I'm just trying to make sure that I'm prepared for January 2020 when I do it again.  Or maybe I'll do it early again next year in late December 2019 if they'll let me do early again next year.  

[JLCrab]

19 minutes ago, jmd8800 said:

I was wrong: Page 21 on Saturday afternoon.

That's because we have gone into ThaiVisa "Well what about me?  My situation is ..." mode.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

4 hours ago, DRG said:

Very strange. I have been making deposits from my bank in Jersey, Channel Islands, to my KTB account for more than 10 years. In the bank book the transaction code is XISDT and on the statement I download, it is shown as 'Overseas transfer' with the amount in GBP deposited.
 

 

One of the things that may end up being interesting about this is it seems the different Thai banks tend to have different code references that they use, and print out in their Thai bank books, to reflect an incoming international funds transfer. And, there are quite a large number of different Thai banks that extension applicants might be using to receive their funds.

 

I kind of wonder if the Immigration officers are going to end up knowing and being able to recognize just what are and aren't the acceptable transaction codes in the various banks' bank books.  Or, in a simpler world, are they just going to look for a history of 40K or 65K monthly deposits into your Thai bank account, and not obsess over the details of those deposits.

 

[evadgib]

15 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

There is 1 other issue with this and that is the issue of monthly payments into the Thai Bank. Unlike the US, Australia does not pay its pension by the calendar month, if you use an Australian commercial bank then your pension payment is paid at 2 week intervals which is 26 payments for the year. If you use a direct payment from the Reserve Bank of Australia to a Thai bank then you are paid at a 4 weekly interval which is 13 payments. If you take the total yearly payment and divide it by 12 then you meet the requirements but if the enforce the monthly payments then you are below the requirements and if you use the Australian bank and transfer the money then you lose over 2000B every month in transfer fees and withdrawal fees.

My understanding of monthly payments is how many reach your account in a calendar month & that's certainly how I intend to treat it knowing the tally exceeds their requirement.

Edited January 5, 2019 by evadgib

[Pib]

11 hours ago, onera1961 said:

After the three neighboring countries, the largest concentration of expats are Chinese followed by UK, Japanese, Indians, US, Germany, France, etc. expats include people legally in Thailand including work permits excluding citizens and PR holders

Pretty close, but more like below Top 10 taken from the Immigration Bureau Stats webpage/Excel spreadsheet with some help from Google Translate.

https://www.immigration.go.th/immigration_stats

 

[elviajero]

20 minutes ago, zydeco said:

That doesn't necessarily work for US social security. For example, last August, I received my SS on 3 August for August and on 31 August for September because of a US holiday. And no deposit in September. There are glitches in the system like that. Anyone receiving US SS might want to check their auto deposit with Bangkok Bank and see.

If that’s a problem get the SS paid to a US account and transfer the funds to Thailand from there.

[Danthai]

21 minutes ago, zydeco said:

That doesn't necessarily work for US social security. For example, last August, I received my SS on 3 August for August and on 31 August for September because of a US holiday. And no deposit in September. There are glitches in the system like that. Anyone receiving US SS might want to check their auto deposit with Bangkok Bank and see.

Why worry about that. That's normal. I get two government pensions, both paid on different days. One end of month. SS 3rd of month. Doubt immigration will even care or be that picky. 

[Gumballl]

6 hours ago, Mavideol said:

it will be a difficult one for everybody.....monthly pensions are a fixed amount, exchange rates are "unfixed" change every minute/hour/day/week/month, how can one guaranty his/hers FIXED pension amount will cover the required baht amount...

Perhaps send an amount over 65K... say, around 70K.

 

If this is a no-go for you or others, then perhaps you should take a step back and consider living in your home country or some other banana republic.

[Pib]

24 minutes ago, zydeco said:

That doesn't necessarily work for US social security. For example, last August, I received my SS on 3 August for August and on 31 August for September because of a US holiday. And no deposit in September. There are glitches in the system like that. Anyone receiving US SS might want to check their auto deposit with Bangkok Bank and see.

I seriously, seriously doubt (hope) TI would get that nit-picky as I expect even Thai govt employees bi-weekly/monthly direct deposit pay varies plus or minus a few days sometimes due to Thai holidays.

[crazyk]

Another way to stitch up foreigners & take your money,this & the insurance plan,many pensioners are on their way out,especially with the lifestyle they're living in thailand & they know that,make a will & leave to a relative in your home country & not leave it to the bank or greedy thai wife or gf who's trying to fxxk you to death or will find a quicker means if she knows she's the benefactor,even if you keep it a secret i doubt the lawyer will & get money out of her,you know how unscrupulous the cxxts are.....call me cynical but we all know whats going on apart from the idiots who do leave the whxxres money

[Pattaya46]

44 minutes ago, eggers said:

The simple approach would be to say, have to show have an ANNUAL income of at least 780,000Bht..(65,000 x 12)

Simple!!  That way, how often the pension payment is transferred is irrelevant!!

With such a rule, you would have guys who would "find" and put 780'001 B on their account the day before their extension renewal, and would remove it immediately after.

Good solution: that would kill most Agents business 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

10 minutes ago, Pib said:

Pretty close, but more like below Top 10 taken from the Immigration Bureau Stats webpage/Excel spreadsheet with some help from Google Translate.

https://www.immigration.go.th/immigration_stats

 

 

If Immigration keeps tightening the screws any more, and/or if the Brexit debacle gets any worse, us American folks might well end up passing the Brits for the 5th place on the above list, and thus the largest segment by country of westerners here. Interesting....

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

3 hours ago, OJAS said:

May I temper all the apparent optimism on this thread with some words of caution? It should not IMHO be taken as a given that each and every immigration office (or, indeed, each and every officer within the same office) will comply with the requirements of any new Police Order or directive straight away. There could well be those officers who, in the short term at least, will still insist on seasoned 400k/800k bank balances being the only way forward in the absence of Embassy income confirmations, and no amount of waving new Police Orders or directives under their noses will necessarily cause them to budge.

 

In this connection it should not be forgotten that not every office complied straight away with the Immigration Bureau directive issued in 2013 authorising a maximum validity period of 6 months for Embassy income confirmations, for instance.
 

 

In all likelihood, at least for Americans, Brits, Aussies and the few others, it's likely to be a mess at Immigration in the early going (starting 2nd half of 2019 post income letters), especially at some of the outlying Immigration offices that have a history of doing things their own local ways and not paying much attention to the specifics of the supposedly national rules.