BREAKING NEWS Thai immigration reveals new requirements for retirement, marriage extensions (visas)

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

47 minutes ago, Spidey said:

2.       Evidence of a pension. Letter of certification from a Thai bank supported by bank statements showing a pension being transferred to the pensioner’s bank account every month for at least 12 months.

 

I read this as pension transferred directly into Thai bank account. Very few of us will be able to transfer a pension above 65K baht into our Thai bank accounts, but the option is there.

 

Obviously, a better English translation that is forthcoming might help clarify things.

 

But my guess is, when Immigration or some translator here uses the term pension, they're likely using it in the general sense of a regular source of funds. I doubt, though can't prove for now, that Immigration ONLY means it in the sense of a traditional western country pension and excluding all other kinds/sources of income.

 

I think what will end up mattering is that the funds arrive to one's Thai bank account regularly from a foreign source or account -- and not whether the funds originally came from a pension, or bank interest, or rental income, etc etc.

 

[zydeco]

We had a system that worked. Expats were happy with it. Most immigration officers were happy with it. Everybody knew how things happened and what to expect, for the most part. Getting an extension was at most a two day process. Go the embassy for the letter one day. Go to Chaeng Wattana the next. About an hour spent at the embassy. Only 40 minutes spent at Chaeng Wattana last time. Now? Who knows? There will not only be "interpretations" of the new rules but areas of compliance missed or forgotten about in the new regs. You're already seeing it with "monthly" versus "average," BOTH of which are in the original statements in the OP. That is, the implication you must make a deposit each specific month AND the mention of an average. Why mess with what worked?

[unamazedloso]

why would any normal person retire here anyway.... Luckily i have lived here for decades still too young to be officially retired but basically retired since 30. Probably in the next 10years or so we will move to my home country. Even things out a bit by taking the value back out of Thailand. Seems too strict and getting more so but when you put bad organization, corruption and greed in the mix im guessing 65k per month could be far better spent elsewhere. Foreign values are way to low to bother here.

[geoffbezoz]

Well if this translation turns out to be correct then it is very bad news for myself and presumably many others like me.  Previously, having received an extension based on marriage that was granted with the support of an Embassy letter confirming my pensions income. I have/had insufficient funds to deposit 400,000 into a Thai bank, hence the income route.

 

My combined pension at Septembers exchange rate just scrapped in at 492,630 THB per annum.  Now it is less than that and who knows what it will be come next September. If they now wish to only accept an inflow of 40,000 THB per month then no way will the 480,000 pa be attainable given the current rates of exchange predictions of the GBP v THB.

[LawrenceN]

Could you please post the link to the Thai language site from which the translation is taken? I would like to show it to my bank.

 

I plan to use the monthly income method. Problem is, I went to my bank yesterday for a six-month statement and certificate. Statement was no problem. I was told they only knew about certificates for the 800,000 deposit method. I showed them the rules at

https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_22

but they simply did not have the knowledge (or the free rein?) to certify my monthly deposits.

 

The language in the OP is ambiguous on this point. First the cert is mentioned for the monthly income method, but later on, a measure of flexibility by Immigration is mentioned. I'm prepared to show 12 months of deposits of 65,000+, plus statements from my two pension sources, but my hands are tied where my bank can't certify those regular deposits.

 

This is a fairly specific question, and I have stated it precisely. If you're qualified to answer it, I humbly ask that you read my question carefully. Clarification on this point would be appreciated.

[BobBKK]

2 minutes ago, Estrada said:

The problem seems to be that they are asking for evidence of a pension being paid monthly into your Thai bank account. The British Pension is paid only every 3 months. I also have an annual payment and a bi-annual payment, but no monthly payment. I hope I can still use the B800,000 in the bank method.

Why you doubt the 800,000 method?  this is all about monthly income, letters and so forth. No mention of the deposit because it's not part of the same debate and continues.

[lifeincnx]

12 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

How has this thread morphed into a "no lump sum, must do monthly payments now" thread?

Ubonjoe quite clearly states this notice is for monthly income and combination ONLY.

Perhaps Thai Immigration should also add a basic reading comprehension level requirement. ????

[eggers]

If this report is correct, it makes more sense than a post yesterday suggesting need to show transfer of funds EVERY month to your Thai Bank Account. This information simply states "....from 2020 applicants will need to make sure they are able to show a full 12 months worth of income coming to a Thai bank account." with no requirement to transfer funds every month!! That would have been expensive & a pain in the Butt!! Currently, receive income both monthly & 1/4ly, so usually transfer each 1/4.... Simple!!

[NCC1701A]

Class and status are very important to Thais and that is just what they have done here.

so look at your options:

 

first class with a bed and champagne. Thai Visa Elite.

 

seconds class with just one day a year of paper work. 800,000 in the bank year round.

 

third class with jumping around every month hoping you get it right. this mishmosh of monthly payments. 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 6, 2019 by NCC1701A

[wgdanson]

1 hour ago, colinneil said:

Why would i have a problem?

I have 800.000 baht in the bank for my annual extension.

I have never used the income method for my annual extension.

But you did make it sound like you were using your 13 week pension payment for your retirement extension which confused sfokevin, and myself.

[leggo]

1 hour ago, Eligius said:

On the face of it, this looks EXTREMELY worrying for British retirees here. The irresponsible action of the British embassy in not confirming a retiree's income flow could be the death knell for many Brits here. Also, as far as I understand it, the British Government will not send pensions into a Thai bank account (only into a British one), and not every British bank will automatically forward a pension to a bank account in Thailand every month. Maybe I am wrong. 

 

Perhaps it is not as bad as I fear. What do other members think?

 

 

 

 

It is incorrect to say pensions can only be paid into a British Bank - I have mine paid into a foreign bank which then happily transfers it.

[KiChakayan]

29 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

Well it will not suit everybody ( never do ), but it seems that T. I. is amending their directives in order that also people of the 4 embassies will be able to find a way other than the 400/800000 one and other than the Embasy letter.

So in the future 3 letters instead of 2 :

Letter from an Embassy/consulate ( for countries other than the 4 )

Letter from a Thai bank ( 400/800000 )

Letter from a Thai bank ( monthly transfers )

 

Rather positive in my opinion.

Can I make it a combo of the three? 

[onera1961]

49 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

I think pension is probably the best wording for what it states in Thai. Some words or phrases are difficult to translate exactly. Even the word pension can mean more than one thing. In some languages and countries per diem or a living allowance is called a pension.

I agree with @ubonjoe. It is not always possible to translate the Thai police order into an exact English language lawyer written document. I cannot read or write Thai language but I believe it's based on Pali and/or Sanskrit where there are no spaces between words and no strict subject/verb grammatical order. Scholars are still as of now trying to interpret ancient Pali/Sanskrit.

But it leads to different interpretation by IOs and when they communicate with native english speakers. As pension (as we understand in the West) was never meant to be a requirement for extension, I think that will stand.

Nothing changes as it was before except how the TI will verify "monthly income" for those countries whose embassies have threw their citizens under the bus.

Kudos to TI to accommodate these genetic lottery winners into Thailand by devising a new path of depositing money every month into their account. If the can't, they can always resort to agents. I agree that before they could cheat by paying $50 to their countries's coffers and now you have to cheat by sharing the some of your money with the agents and TIs

And don't forget it is still a police state where the meaning of true democracy and the rule of laws will take years to get into people's head.
 

Edited January 6, 2019 by onera1961

[colinneil]

Just now, wgdanson said:

But you did make it sound like you were using your 13 week pension payment for your retirement extension which confused sfokevin, and myself.

No i was replying to Elgius post about he thought British pensions could not be paid into a Thai bank account.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

46 minutes ago, AsterixThai said:

Hello,
For information, the Swiss embassy sends retirement certificates.
Why are not the embassies of other countries doing the same thing?

 

Swiss along with virtually all other countries with Embassies in Thailand....

 

Except for the US, UK, Australia and Dutch, I believe.

 

Why those few only are the only ones to have bailed out of income letters is the million dollar question a lot of us would really like to know the real answer to.  And it's surely not because all the others have some kind of fancy income verification system that somehow goes far beyond what the Brit Embassy, for example, was already doing on that front.

 

 

[leggo]

5 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

Why you doubt the 800,000 method?  this is all about monthly income, letters and so forth. No mention of the deposit because it's not part of the same debate and continues.

My British pension is paid every four weeks and all you have to do is ask the pensions office to do the same for you!

[seajae]

28 minutes ago, zydeco said:

We had a system that worked. Expats were happy with it. Most immigration officers were happy with it. Everybody knew how things happened and what to expect, for the most part. Getting an extension was at most a two day process. Go the embassy for the letter one day. Go to Chaeng Wattana the next. About an hour spent at the embassy. Only 40 minutes spent at Chaeng Wattana last time. Now? Who knows? There will not only be "interpretations" of the new rules but areas of compliance missed or forgotten about in the new regs. You're already seeing it with "monthly" versus "average," BOTH of which are in the original statements in the OP. That is, the implication you must make a deposit each specific month AND the mention of an average. Why mess with what worked?

problem was a lot of expats were lying about their income or using agents for the required amount in the bank because they didnt have it, if people want to blame anyone for all the problems look no further than the ones that were doing this. The ones actually following the regulations were fine but immigration knew there were a lot lying so have obviously tried to shut down the loop holes they were using, the system wasnt working it was being manipulated and the only expats happy with it were those that were cheating and getting away with it. What needs to happen is that husband and wife earnings plus their house/land etc be allowed to be used in the equation as this would make it easier for some of those that cant meet the requirements 

 

Edited January 6, 2019 by seajae

[DPKANKAN]

1 hour ago, Eligius said:

On the face of it, this looks EXTREMELY worrying for British retirees here. The irresponsible action of the British embassy in not confirming a retiree's income flow could be the death knell for many Brits here. Also, as far as I understand it, the British Government will not send pensions into a Thai bank account (only into a British one), and not every British bank will automatically forward a pension to a bank account in Thailand every month. Maybe I am wrong. 

 

Perhaps it is not as bad as I fear. What do other members think?

 

 

 

 

Incorrect. Uk government wanted to put my pension in my Thai bank account and I said "no" to my uk one please!!

[davehowden]

11 minutes ago, seajae said:

I transfer with transferwise and it shows up in my bangkok bank as an international transfer everytime it goes into the account

 

That is because Transferwise uses the Bangkok Bank as its "agent" in Thailand. Bangkok Bank then transfer the incoming funds from Transferwise to other Thai banks. That is why my Transferwise incoming funds show as "internal transfer" in my Krungthai account (they have arrived from Bangkok Bank) and as "external transfer" in your Bangkok Bank account.

[Duaned]

So 800k 90 days prior to your extention is no longer valid?

[JackThompson]

2 minutes ago, zydeco said:

We had a system that worked. Expats were happy with it. Most immigration officers were happy with it. Everybody knew how things happened and what to expect, for the most part. Getting an extension was at most a two day process. Go the embassy for the letter one day. Go to Chaeng Wattana the next. About an hour spent at the embassy. Only 40 minutes spent at Chaeng Wattana last time. Now? Who knows? There will not only be "interpretations" of the new rules but areas of compliance missed or forgotten about in the new regs. You're already seeing it with "monthly" versus "average," BOTH of which are in the original statements in the OP. That is, the implication you must make a deposit each specific month AND the mention of an average. Why mess with what worked? 

Those embassy letters were blocking thousands of potential agent-submitted applications.  The goalposts have been moved from a specified "monthly income" (gross income) to "income remitted to Thailand monthly."  Now, not only will any "letter-liars" be forced to agents (fine by me), but so will thousands of folks who were telling the truth.

 

If the "pension" language is used in a particular way, then the vast majority of Americans, Brits, etc here won't qualify - because social-security isn't enough, and investment or even dividends from a 401K are not "pensions" with a specified guaranteed monthly payout. 

I recall a couple reports where the "pension" language, as already exists for the marriage-based extension, was used against applicants - denying their application based on income unless receiving a "pension" of 40K/mo, and thus rejecting the embassy-letter's stated-income by itself.  If that practice expands, throw thousands more agent-applications into the agent-loot-pipeline. 

 

But We Don't Know if some "pension language twist" will be a rare-thing, at a few offices, or non-existent, or widespread. Much will likely depend on local-office practices - and possibly even more variable than they are already, using this new system.

[ZABA]

1 hour ago, johnjohn2 said:

Evidence of a pension. Letter of certification from a Thai bank supported by bank statements showing a pension being transferred to the pensioner’s bank account every month for at least 12 months.

 

I wonder if this means that you have to have your pension being direct deposit to the Thai Bank? Or you can just show deposits of which you transferred yourself from your bank to the Thai bank at minimum required amounts. 

I have the same question - US pension transferred to US bank then 65k transferred to Thai Bank. I was told at Bangkok Bank the other day that they will print a statement of all your foreign deposits for the last 6 months and Include a letter of confirmation for this issue.

 

I personally have payments to make in the States so don't want all my pension sent here.

[bluweyze]

2 hours ago, Eligius said:

On the face of it, this looks EXTREMELY worrying for British retirees here. The irresponsible action of the British embassy in not confirming a retiree's income flow could be the death knell for many Brits here. Also, as far as I understand it, the British Government will not send pensions into a Thai bank account (only into a British one), and not every British bank will automatically forward a pension to a bank account in Thailand every month. Maybe I am wrong. 

 

Perhaps it is not as bad as I fear. What do other members think?

Absolutely not true, My British pension goes straight into my Bangkok Bank account every month

[zydeco]

2 minutes ago, seajae said:

the system wasnt working it was being manipulated and the only expats happy with it were those that were cheating and getting away with it

Then why so many people complaining about the changes on TVF if they were unhappy.  Look, I don't think there were that many who cheated. Go back to earliest topics on this subject and you will see that evidence from the embassies themselves (the number letters they processed during workdays) wasn't all that high. You would have had to assume everyone was cheating to make a meaningful percentage. Were there cheats? Some. But I don't think the numbers were all that great. Certainly not enough to cause this meltdown in the system we are now getting.

[luckyluke]

 

2 minutes ago, zydeco said:

We had a system that worked.

If the 4 embassies cancel their decision, the system may work again like before.

Not clear at all why they did it, a lot of asumptions.

But T.I. is going to amend their directives to try to please the people of the 4 embassies.

Of course some will expect they change it so it will benefit them personnaly.

The word " pension " may be a problem, if taken litteraly.

Will have to see, tomorrow may be more informative.

[Suradit69]

37 minutes ago, Blue bruce said:

Good news for most expats

Assuming "most expats" are here on extensions of stay based on retirement, marriage or Thai dependents and who use the monthly income/deposit method and who barely meet the minimum monthly income requirements depending on exchange rates ... probably good news although much still open to interpretation and implementation and a boat load of "what ifs."

 

For all the unaffected expats ... yawn.

 

 

 

Edited January 6, 2019 by Suradit69

[overherebc]

6 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Those embassy letters were blocking thousands of potential agent-submitted applications.  The goalposts have been moved from a specified "monthly income" (gross income) to "income remitted to Thailand monthly."  Now, not only will any "letter-liars" be forced to agents (fine by me), but so will thousands of folks who were telling the truth.

 

If the "pension" language is used in a particular way, then the vast majority of Americans, Brits, etc here won't qualify - because social-security isn't enough, and investment or even dividends from a 401K are not "pensions" with a specified guaranteed monthly payout. 

I recall a couple reports where the "pension" language, as already exists for the marriage-based extension, was used against applicants - denying their application based on income unless receiving a "pension" of 40K/mo, and thus rejecting the embassy-letter's stated-income by itself.  If that practice expands, throw thousands more agent-applications into the agent-loot-pipeline. 

 

But We Don't Know if some "pension language twist" will be a rare-thing, at a few offices, or non-existent, or widespread. Much will likely depend on local-office practices - and possibly even more variable than they are already, using this new system.

If they were telling the truth about 40/65,000 baht a month for the past few years then they must have the records/bank records to prove it.

Edited January 6, 2019 by overherebc

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

48 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

The new order is an amendment to these clauses of police order 138/2557 titled "Supporting documents for Consideration of an Alien’s Application for a Temporary Stay in the Kingdom of Thailand".

This in clause 2.18 for extensions based upon marriage or being the parent of a Thai.

This in clause 2.22 for retirement.

 

I think pension is probably the best wording for what it states in Thai. Some words or phrases are difficult to translate exactly. Even the word pension can mean more than one thing. In some languages and countries per diem or a living allowance is called a pension.

 

 

So Joe, pending the arrival of a more formal EN translation, are you working from the assumption that people here should not over obsess about the use of the term "pension," and that the actual meaning will end up being that the funds need to be deposited here from abroad as per the order, and that Immigration probably won't be dealing with what the particular source of the funds was, as long as one's Thai bank letters and bank book are in order?

 

 

[DPKANKAN]

1 hour ago, NCC1701A said:

OK so those affected by this change need to investigate a monthly transfer service like Transferwise.

 

And or setting up repeating monthly transfers from their bank outside of Thailand where ever it may be.  

 

The exchange rate is something you will have to monitor month to month.

 

 

 

 

The exchange rate is one thing. The cost of transferring it is another!! I only get my private pension every 3 months so only send it when I need it or every 3 months!!

[mercman24]

STOP PANICKING YOU  lot, they are ALL  CORRUPT there will be a way around this, just ask any bar stool sitter in Pattaya, how do you think they live here,  (they pay 10 to 16,000 for the stamp) no way have they got a 65,000 baht a month income, i have said this before, i done my 90 day in october, the official seen my yearly retirement expired in november, he said to me * i can do for you 16,000 baht * and this was after the big crackdown ,