Thai Elite visa tax issues

[Crisu]

Crisu: you mean it's locally sourced and taxable on the arising basis?

I am resident in TH since several years.  I have my bank accounts outside of TH on which i trade, invest ect.

This is not locally sourced but foreign, no matter if i place orders in TH or Vietnam

 

I dont have to pay any tax because TH is not charging tax on this foreign income and i do not have any other tax residence than TH.

 

Of course i am also not liable for any tax in SG because i am also no tax resident there. I hold just an account.

 

If you are looking for a reason to pay tax, you are in the wrong board here because TH is 'tax heaven' thats also why many expats live here and we dont want to pay tax or try to avoid it legally.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[alexanderhu]

I see, thank you Crisu. I do not want to pay tax, except if I have to. I simply want to avoid landing in hot water should the tax authority decide to check on my financial situation.

[ukrules]

1 hour ago, lkv said:

 

-They joined the "Forum"

-They are not implementing AEOI nor are they in a hurry to do so.

It could take many, many years...

[simon43]

...and a residence permit (in this case the Thai Elite visa)

 

The Elite visa is not a residence permit (in any shape or form).  It is a tourist visa.

[ukrules]

Most of the people I know choose Thailand as a base so they don't need to pay any tax.

 

I have a suspicion that the Thais don't encourage it because it is the first step on the road to citizenship / permanent residency...three years of tax returns opens a lot of doors if you can be bothered with it.

 

Does Thailand want lots of people to begin the process down this road? I don't think so.

Edited January 8, 2019 by ukrules

[alexanderhu]

simon43: I wouldn't call it a tourist visa since it allows you to spend 7,300 days (20 years) continuously in the country. This would be strangest tourist visa which allows you to rent a property, to open a local bank account, to stay for decades without interruption and so on. I know it's a non immigrant visa and doesn't give you permanent residence but 20 years is pretty close especially if we'll be able to renew it for another 20 years.

 

ukrules: You mean someone who has been residing in the country for 3+ years could qualify for the citizenship if he or she could produce a tax return with some type of active income in it?

Edited January 8, 2019 by alexanderhu

[Crisu]

I see, thank you Crisu. I do not want to pay tax, except if I have to. I simply want to avoid landing in hot water should the tax authority decide to check on my financial situation.

You do not have too. Many choose TH also because of tax free heaven. You are not the first/only one.
Never heared of anyone checked by thai Tax Autority. This is not germany or USA.

If you are in need of a tax id you have to open a fixed deposit account in TH and then ask for TIN next year or you find an employment at a company then you cam ask for it this year.

From my personal experience i can tell you SG banks/broker asked me for TIN but i infirmed them i no have and it was ok for all of them.

Hong Kong stock broker like Saxo HK are also very easy concerning TIN i heared.

[Crisu]

 

 

 

 

simon43: I wouldn't call it a tourist visa since it allows you to spend 7,300 days (20 years) continuously in the country. This would be strangest tourist visa which allows you to rent a property, to open a local bank account,

 

You can open bank account, rent property even with single entry/multiple entry tourist visa or no visa (there are visa excemption for many countries, e.g. germany, france)

 

 

 

 

 

[ukrules]

22 minutes ago, alexanderhu said:

ukrules: You mean someone who has been residing in the country for 3+ years could qualify for the citizenship if he or she could produce a tax return with some type of active income in it?

If you pay tax in Thailand for 3 years then you can apply for permanent residency.

 

This is a first step on the very long winded and drawn out journey towards Thai citizenship.

 

I only know one guy here who has permanent residency, he's been here decades, pays some tax. He needs no visas at all any more.

[alexanderhu]

Crisu: That's right but show me another tourist visa that allows the holder to stay for multiple years without interruption.

 

ukrules: I see, so technically speaking if a Thai Elite member pays some tax for three years in a row, then he or she may be able to secure a PR. I presume there must be some other requirements as well or it is that simple?

Edited January 8, 2019 by alexanderhu

[BigT73]

1 hour ago, Crisu said:

I am resident in TH since several years.  I have my bank accounts outside of TH on which i trade, invest ect.

This is not locally sourced but foreign, no matter if i place orders in TH or Vietnam

 

I dont have to pay any tax because TH is not charging tax on this foreign income and i do not have any other tax residence than TH.

 

Of course i am also not liable for any tax in SG because i am also no tax resident there. I hold just an account.

 

If you are looking for a reason to pay tax, you are in the wrong board here because TH is 'tax heaven' thats also why many expats live here and we dont want to pay tax or try to avoid it legally.

 

 

 

 

 

 

If your broker had a option to pay into a Thai bank directly would you do that?

 

On a sidenote my misses just mentioned yesterday that on the news thai banks are talking about TN for accounts. At this point aimed at locals for tax purposes.

[Krupps]

2 hours ago, Crisu said:

You do not have too. Many choose TH also because of tax free heaven. You are not the first/only one.
Never heared of anyone checked by thai Tax Autority. This is not germany or USA.

If you are in need of a tax id you have to open a fixed deposit account in TH and then ask for TIN next year or you find an employment at a company then you cam ask for it this year.

From my personal experience i can tell you SG banks/broker asked me for TIN but i infirmed them i no have and it was ok for all of them.

Hong Kong stock broker like Saxo HK are also very easy concerning TIN i heared.

 

Your posts are very valuable, thanks for your input here

[Naam]

4 hours ago, lkv said:

You are reading into things too much, you are in a developing country where there is no tax enforcement on foreign sourced income of any kind, because of law loopholes that benefit rich Thais, and you are talking derivatives?

 

This is not the US or Europe, that's why they can't answer your question, they don't have a clue nor do they care to enforce.

"lkv" one caveat! de jure a tax "law loophole" does not exist. it's the applied common practice which causes de facto not levying income tax on offfshore proceeds brought into Thailand not earned in the same year.

 

in theory this practice could change overnight. however, based on the clout of 'influential' Thais, this is unlikely to happen.

[ThomasThBKK]

No they really aren't, sorry.

They are factually wrong, u need to make a tax report if u live here over 180 days.
It doesn't matter if the tax statement says u owe them 0 baht or not.

It's easy to get a taxid with the thai elite visa, i explained above how to. I do have one.

So just get one, report ur prolly non existing taxes yearly and don't give them any leverage against you.


Just because thailand didn't give a <deleted> in the past doesn't mean they won't use the fact that u never filled out tax statements against you in the future...

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk

[alexanderhu]

ThomasThBKK: How do I get the tax id and what statement should I fill and file?

[ThomasThBKK]

They have all the documents at the tax office, at least in bangkok. It's the same documents other expats use, with the difference that they wanted a letter of consent that states that i rented the condo on a yearly basis and copies of my landlords chanotes as a proof of address.

I gave my tax accountant a power of attorney to fill that stuff out for me as its all in thai language.


I am sure if u use a tax accountant that ia bangkok based and from your home country that he knows how to so that and can send one of his thai partners there.

KPMG and other accounting firms are also in thailand, i am sure they can help you too

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk

[Ks45672]

4 hours ago, alexanderhu said:

lkv: Well, they're part of the AEOI or under the process of becoming a member, almost the same. Sooner or later but they're going to exchange that information. Yes, that makes sense, thank you! I have asked so many people about the tax treatment of trading income and most people just say that it's not taxable but when I tell them it may be locally sourced since it is considered to be locally sourced in SG or HK then they go quite and doesn't seem to know the answer because I don't trade stocks but currencies and I have triple digits positions in a month so we are definitely not talking about investments here. Your point makes sense but you know if I don't pay any tax but one day if they get information within the AEOI framework and decide to investigate my tax matters because I have X balance and I pay zero tax in Thailand, then I would be in a really hot mess.

 

Crisu: I know, I read those and talked with many tax advisors (not KPMG though) but the question is not whether foreign sourced income is taxable on the remittance basis or not but whether trading income itself is foreign sourced if let's say the taxpayer is trading on the currency market with a foreign brokerage account or it's locally sourced because the trades were placed from Thailand.

Nobody  will know, ask or care where your laptop was a previous tax year ago when you pressed the buttons that generated the profits thousands of miles away... ????

 

 

For extra peace of mind you could open a savings account somewhere else (not your home country or Thailand) and transfer your trading profits to that account and let them sit for a year or more compounding interest before transferring to Thailand 

 

That way you can always prove to Thailand your funds are  from a previous year and you don't need to go through your home country either if you don't want to

 

Some people I've worked with don't even wait a tax  year to bring their cash in and just spend it immediately on hotels  girls and partying    but i would personally wait a year just to stay on the safe side if possible lol

 

 

[Misty]

Based on a number of posts, there may be confusion between what income is Thai sourced and what is Foreign sourced.  This may help (bolds are mine):

 

From: https://www.interactivethailand.com/accounting/personal-income-tax-on-thai-vs-foreign-income/

 

"Thai Sourced Income

Thai personal income tax laws are clear about tax obligations originating from receiving Thai sourced income. In essence, any income that is created as a result of an activity taking place in Thailand is deemed taxable in Thailand in the same calendar year it is received (regardless of where it is paid and the recipient’s tax residence status).

 

The income is considered Thai sourced income if it is derived from:

Work performed in Thailand

Business in Thailand

Business of an employer in Thailand

Property located in Thailand"

 

I realize the above does not address the issue of whether day trading is considered to be "Work in Thailand."  However, from tax professional LivinLOS post #17 it sounds like that at least for now, day trading may not be considered work in Thailand.

[Naam]

24 minutes ago, Ks45672 said:

you can always prove to Thailand your funds are  from a previous year...

...when you transfer all the money you need in Thailand in a calendar year in the first week of january. that's what i did day before yesterday. personally i think it's overkill because there were years when i bought cars which did cost a multiple of our annual living expenses. but the "transfer in january" was the brilliant idea of my "better half" and it makes her happy. 

[Rugon]

Interesting if I can use the money gained from buying cryptocurrency a few years ago as money from abroad.

I suppose I'll have to cash it in a bank abroad then transfer here which is a total annoyance. Maybe I can just send it to a Thai bank?

[Ks45672]

3 minutes ago, Naam said:

...when you transfer all the money you need in Thailand in a calendar year in the first week of january. that's what i did day before yesterday. personally i think it's overkill because there were years when i bought cars which did cost a multiple of our annual living expenses. but the "transfer in january" was the brilliant idea of my "better half" and it makes her happy. 

The way the exchange rate is going she might have saved you some money bringing in a lump now rather than later.... ???? 

 

 

[Naam]

10 minutes ago, Misty said:

I realize the above does not address the issue of whether day trading is considered to be "Work in Thailand."

any focus on "day trading" is irrelevant. those of us who are financially comfortably heeled are managing their offshore assets with a considerable amount of "work in Thailand" which consists of hours or even days of specific research especially when the emphasis is on investing in high yield / high risk assets.

[Naam]

Just now, Ks45672 said:

The way the exchange rate is going she might have saved you some money bringing in a lump now rather than later.... ???? 

 

BINGO!

[Ks45672]

3 minutes ago, Rugon said:

Interesting if I can use the money gained from buying cryptocurrency a few years ago as money from abroad.

I suppose I'll have to cash it in a bank abroad then transfer here which is a total annoyance. Maybe I can just send it to a Thai bank?

You can sell bitcoins in Thai to bx.in.th if you want and they will send the funds to your Thai bank without any international transfer fees, might be easier /cheaper 

[Ks45672]

6 minutes ago, Naam said:

any focus on "day trading" is irrelevant. those of us who are financially comfortably heeled are managing their offshore assets with a considerable amount of "work in Thailand" which consists of hours or even days of specific research especially when the emphasis is on investing in high yield / high risk assets.

No guts, no glory! ????

 

High yield/High risk assets are the only ones that won't bore you to death, as long as you can afford a bit of risk to ride out the storms lol

 

Making a couple of % less than inflation on cash in a bank shouldn't even be categorised as an "investment" in my opinion... 

 

 

 

 

[Misty]

23 minutes ago, Naam said:

any focus on "day trading" is irrelevant.

OP's question was in regards to "day trading"

[MrPatrickThai]

32 minutes ago, Naam said:

any focus on "day trading" is irrelevant. those of us who are financially comfortably heeled are managing their offshore assets with a considerable amount of "work in Thailand" which consists of hours or even days of specific research especially when the emphasis is on investing in high yield / high risk assets.

Blowing your own trumpet can land you in trouble if you are working without a permit.

[LivinLOS]

22 hours ago, humbug said:

no its not the point. The op really is a wum, what he is highlighting is to work full time on his income whatever that is and use thailand as a base and use the thai tax structure to satisfy his passport countrys tax man.

That means he requires a work permit not a living visa such elite/retirement/marriage. That is why if you have an elite and wish to work they can help you change the visa to a work permit. I am sure people have changed to a work permit after starting a business or other work etc.

 

The op is fully aware of the need of a work permit.

1) what is a wum ?? 

 

2) no the issue is not clear cut.. Thailand has long made it clear that stock purchasing and selling doesnt require a work permit. The issue of being a trader, and when someone might need one, is far wider than simply elite card issues. Repeatedly it has been stated that it isnt illegal to do this, you are free to disagree as I feel it is a grey area, but labour department and a recent 'bust' of a professional day trading operation, seem to indicate otherwise. 

[LivinLOS]

https://thethaiger.com/issues-answers/asked/do-i-need-a-work-permit-to-play-the-stock-market

 

I am a foreigner living in Thailand with my Thai wife and our children. I have a non-immigrant “O” visa. I hear horrible stories about work permits, the different interpretations of “work” and the consequences of not having a permit. These stories include being blacklisted regardless of your family ties and investments in Thailand.

I don’t want to work here illegally. I love Thailand, its culture and the locals. I want to abide by the country’s laws. I am a private online investor in stocks, commodities and currencies in foreign markets. I work from my home here in Thailand.

Setting up a Thai company is not an option. I want to avoid any misinterpretation by labor departments and/or immigration authorities and also any dangers to my family by not abiding by local laws.

I’ve searched the web and asked various lawyers, but still have not received a comprehensive answer.

All my investment accounts, stock exchanges and brokers are located outside of Thailand. Is my work legal? Do I need to apply for any type of work permit?

Worried private investor in Thailand

  Legacy Phuket Gazette  Asked on September 1, 2011 in  Movies, Events & Entertainment.

Stock investment is not lawfully defined as work. As long as you are not working, you do not need to apply for a work permit.

For example. If you are a shareholder or an executive of a company, but you do not sign documents related to the daily functions of that company, you do not need a work permit.

However, you must pay income tax if you receive a stock dividend.

The only documentation we are authorized to issue to foreigners working here is a work permit. If you do not work, there is no official documentation that can be issued to you.

Noppadol Ployudee, chief of the Phuket Provincial Employment Office.

[Misty]

17 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

https://thethaiger.com/issues-answers/asked/do-i-need-a-work-permit-to-play-the-stock-market

 "....Stock investment is not lawfully defined as work. As long as you are not working, you do not need to apply for a work permit.Noppadol Ployudee, chief of the Phuket Provincial Employment Office.

Thanks, a helpful post from 2011...  as you say, seems like a grey area....OP says what he is doing is not "stock investment" but involves other things --- say futures, options, currency, short term bets

 

Wonder if OP could describe what he does to his local Provincial Employment Office and ask them to give him a similar written response, i.e. " (What OP does) is not lawfully defined as work."