England's ten biggest football clubs are still the same ones as 100 years ago

[Bredbury Blue]

From time-to-time on here there’s a ‘debate’ about which clubs are ‘big’ and which are not. Came across this Times article (I don’t have a subscription so I can’t download the full details) which clarifies, based on average league attendances, which are England’s top 10 biggest clubs :

 

“If fanbase is an indication of a club’s size and potential, then these are England’s biggest ten clubs, in order, based on average league attendances in the Premier League era, including any seasons spent in the lower divisions:

1. Manchester United,

2. Arsenal,

3. Newcastle United,

4. Liverpool,

5. Manchester City,

6. Chelsea,

7. Everton,

8. Tottenham Hotspur,

9. Aston Villa, and,

10. Sunderland.

Then move back in time to between the Second World War and the start of the Premier League in 1992. Which different clubs appear in the top ten over that 46-year period? The answer is none – the top ten are exactly the same, albeit in a different order.

What about even farther back to between the two world wars? Again, the very same ten clubs were attracting the largest attendances…”

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/why-england-s-ten-biggest-clubs-are-still-the-same-ones-as-100-years-ago-lkc0pddtk

 

[Bredbury Blue]

^Don't think there's any surprises in the top 10 but it's very interesting that the top 10 haven't changed over the past 100 years. So it's Lancashire x 4, London x 3, North-east x 2 and midlands x 1.

 

 

[VocalNeal]

Size of the stadiums come into play?

[RickG16]

You have a Times subscription BB... I'm impressed. Not sure if I would sign up for that or Telegraph. 

[Bredbury Blue]

1 minute ago, RickG16 said:

You have a Times subscription BB... I'm impressed. Not sure if I would sign up for that or Telegraph. 

I don't, as stated "(I don’t have a subscription so I can’t download the full details)". Sometimes wish i did though as the Times has my favourite football journalist in Henry Winter.

[RickG16]

11 minutes ago, Bredbury Blue said:

I don't, as stated "(I don’t have a subscription so I can’t download the full details)". Sometimes wish i did though as the Times has my favourite football journalist in Henry Winter.

Yeah he is good, and Souness writes for them now too. 

[Rc2702]

This is as you boldly put it. Only based on league attendances but does not answer the real question behind this topic. Out of the top 6 who has the least worldwide fan base?

[RickG16]

1 hour ago, Rc2702 said:

 the least worldwide fan base?

I've heard a few people on the outskirts of Stockport support City... that counts as international dunnit?

[3 minus 2]

14 hours ago, Bredbury Blue said:

I don't, as stated "(I don’t have a subscription so I can’t download the full details)". Sometimes wish i did though as the Times has my favourite football journalist in Henry Winter.

the guardian has the better news/sports reporatage by far and its free,, if u choose.

[3 minus 2]

14 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

Size of the stadiums come into play?

now, for sure,, bac in the day ,, mabe not, charlton had a HUGE stad others prob wernt that much smaller

[owl sees all]

Is this just about ground capacity or about genuine support? If it's the latter I'd like to throw in a couple of names; Forest, Portsmouth and Leeds.

 

Wolves were a 'big' club in the 1950s and Ipswich were well thought of in the 60s. Go back between the wars and Huddersfield was a top northern club.

 

After they won the League in the early 1960s, Everton was the most successful club of all.

 

Talksport did a survey about 20 years ago and their findings were that Celtic was the most supported club in the world.

[Bredbury Blue]

1 hour ago, 3 minus 2 said:

the guardian has the better news/sports reporatage by far and its free,, if u choose.

With you there. My order of reading the footie news:

Bbc

Guardian  

Telegraph

Independent  

Mail / Mirror / T'Express

[Bredbury Blue]

7 hours ago, RickG16 said:

I've heard a few people on the outskirts of Stockport support City... that counts as international dunnit?

Bit rich coming  from a supporter of a club that calls  itself Manchester, hasn't  been based in Manchester for over a 100 years and is ridiculed for its support from outside of the North West ????

 

City's  a local club for local people, to quote Tubbs.

[Bredbury Blue]

34 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

Is this just about ground capacity or about genuine support? If it's the latter I'd like to throw in a couple of names; Forest, Portsmouth and Leeds.

 

Wolves were a 'big' club in the 1950s and Ipswich were well thought of in the 60s. Go back between the wars and Huddersfield was a top northern club.

 

After they won the League in the early 1960s, Everton was the most successful club of all.

 

Talksport did a survey about 20 years ago and their findings were that Celtic was the most supported club in the world.

Sorry but you can't  throw in names.

 

The top 10 is based on their attendances (presumably  home) and is therefore  factual.

 

The clubs you mention would  be probably  be in the top 11 to 20.

[owl sees all]

46 minutes ago, Bredbury Blue said:

Sorry but you can't  throw in names.

 

The top 10 is based on their attendances (presumably  home) and is therefore  factual.

 

The clubs you mention would  be probably  be in the top 11 to 20.

Not much more to debate then.

[Bredbury Blue]

9 hours ago, Rc2702 said:

This is as you boldly put it. Only based on league attendances but does not answer the real question behind this topic. Out of the top 6 who has the least worldwide fan base?

League attendances are facts. Pre-tv and internet age fans going watching the game would be representative of 'fan base'.

 

If you don't use attendances and instead use fan base: 

Where would you get facts on fan base numbers?

Who or what would represent a fan - somebody who attends all games, occasional  games, been once, armchair supporter who's  never attended but supports that team? Don't  think you could use fan base, it's too subjective.

 

Sticking to attendances is representative of 'big club'.

[Bredbury Blue]

16 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

Not much more to debate then.

Not really, facts are facts ????

 

Surprising there's no Yorkshire club in the list, especially for the pre-70s years, particularly from Sheffield or Leeds, yet there's 4 from Lancashire. It could therefore be as simple as the biggest clubs on attendances  come from the biggest Cities (though are Newcastle  and Sunderland bigger cities than Leeds  and Sheffield?).

[owl sees all]

1 hour ago, Bredbury Blue said:

Not really, facts are facts ????

 

Surprising there's no Yorkshire club in the list, especially for the pre-70s years, particularly from Sheffield or Leeds, yet there's 4 from Lancashire. It could therefore be as simple as the biggest clubs on attendances  come from the biggest Cities (though are Newcastle  and Sunderland bigger cities than Leeds  and Sheffield?).

London is by far the biggest city in the land, but it only ranks third behind Manchester and Liverpool in success terms. 

 

The capital once had 7 teams in the top flight (not counting Watford, who are just on the fringes).

[Bredbury Blue]

3 hours ago, Bredbury Blue said:

Not really, facts are facts ????

 

Surprising there's no Yorkshire club in the list, especially for the pre-70s years, particularly from Sheffield or Leeds, yet there's 4 from Lancashire. It could therefore be as simple as the biggest clubs on attendances  come from the biggest Cities (though are Newcastle  and Sunderland bigger cities than Leeds  and Sheffield?).

 

Nope, biggest clubs on attendances  do NOT necessarily come from the biggest cities OR catchment areas!

 

Seems Leeds and Sheffield folk are not are not so interested in attending matches compared to Newcastle and Sunderland who are mad for it.

 

2011 Census

1. West Midlands (Met County incl. Birmingham Coventry Dudley Sandwell Solihull Walsall Wolverhampton) = 2,738,100

2. Greater Manchester (Met County incl. Bolton Bury Manchester Oldham Rochdale Salford Stockport Tameside Trafford Wigan) = 2,682,500

3. West Yorkshire (Met County incl. Bradford Calderdale Kirklees Leeds Wakefield) = 2,226,100

4. Merseyside (Met County incl.  Knowsley  Liverpool Sefton St. Helens Wirral) = 1,381,200

5. South Yorkshire (Met County incl. Barnsley Doncaster Rotherham Sheffield) = 1,343,600

6. Tyne and Wear (Met County incl. Gateshead Newcastle North Tyneside South Tyneside Sunderland) = 1,104,800

 

1 London 8,173,941

2 Birmingham 1,085,810

3 Glasgow 590,507

4 Liverpool 552,267

5 Bristol 535,907

6 Sheffield 518,090

7 Manchester 510,746

8 Leeds 474,632

18 Newcastle 268,064

37 Sunderland 174,286

 

 

 

[sanemax]

On 1/23/2019 at 10:23 AM, owl sees all said:

London is by far the biggest city in the land, but it only ranks third behind Manchester and Liverpool in success terms. 

 

The capital once had 7 teams in the top flight (not counting Watford, who are just on the fringes).

The attendances are for individual Clubs though , London has 6 teams in the top division , Liverpool has two teams in the top division , whilst Manchester , Newcastle etc just have the one team 

[Bredbury Blue]

Average home attendances for the 2018/19 season so far

 

https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/leicester-city-rank-premier-league-2459274

[Bredbury Blue]

Here's The Times article (think there might be a few accompanying graphs to the article but i didn't come across them in my t'internet search for the article):

 

Why England's ten biggest clubs are still the same ones as 100 years ago

 

"If fanbase is an indication of a club’s size and potential, then these are England’s biggest ten clubs, in order, based on average league attendances in the Premier League era, including any seasons spent in the lower divisions: Manchester United, Arsenal, Newcastle United, Liverpool, Manchester City, Chelsea, Everton, Tottenham Hotspur, Aston Villa and Sunderland.

 

Then move back in time to between the Second World War and the start of the Premier League in 1992. Which different clubs appear in the top ten over that 46-year period? The answer is none – the top ten are exactly the same, albeit in a different order. What about even farther back to between the two world wars? Again, the very same ten clubs were attracting the largest attendances in the 1920s and 1930s.

 

That shows a remarkable stability over a hundred years in terms of the identity of football’s heavyweights – using that description for clubs enjoying a large following and indeed long-term strength on the pitch, as will be explained later. Once a big club, always a big club, it seems.

 

Even in the pre-First World War period from 1888 to 1915, when these clubs were still being formed or had only recently come into existence, they still filled the top seven in the attendance chart, with Manchester United tenth, Sunderland 11th and Arsenal 18th.

 

These ten clubs with the biggest long-term attendances are, naturally, based in urban areas with large populations on their doorstep – the cities of London, Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Newcastle and Sunderland. However, there are plenty of other league clubs in some of those areas – for example London has Charlton Athletic and Queens Park Rangers, Greater Manchester has Bury and Rochdale, Birmingham has Birmingham City – but once a club has established a larger fanbase than a neighbour, that situation tends to stay the same, even through long periods of poor results. Supporters changing their allegiance to a different club is rare, and those allegiances are often passed down from one generation to the next.

 

Possessing a huge fanbase is significant financially in many ways, increasingly so in the modern age. More money can be taken at the gate, obviously, but also merchandise can be sold in greater quantities and lucrative sponsorship deals can be arranged because there are more fans around to buy those sponsors’ products. These clubs can even earn a greater share of media rights income because television companies are inclined to screen their matches as more fans means a higher potential audience – for example Newcastle’s position in a table of live TV appearances in recent years has been higher than their level in the Premier League standings.

 

Higher income, of course, tends to lead to greater success. Who are the ten clubs to have achieved the feat of playing in the most top-flight seasons – perhaps the best measure of overall strength – since the league’s formation in 1888? Answer: those very same ten clubs, led by Everton on 116 top-division campaigns. These clubs also fill the top eight positions for most title wins (Newcastle are joint ninth and Tottenham joint 15th).

 

To support the point about clubs maintaining their place in the hierarchy, even the second-tier clubs have been reasonably stable: the positions 11th to 20th in the attendance tables of those three eras (between the wars; World War Two to Premier League; and the Premier League era) included in each case West Ham United, Wolverhampton Wanderers, Sheffield Wednesday and Leicester City, while Sheffield United, West Bromwich Albion, Leeds United, Nottingham Forest, Derby County, Birmingham and Middlesbrough appear in two of them.

 

Will these ten clubs continue to be the long-term big ten for attendances in the future? Even in the Sky Bet Championship this season Villa have the tenth largest crowds in the country, while Sunderland are as high as 16th despite languishing in Sky Bet League One. There are interlopers, though, in the form of West Ham, whose move to the London Stadium in 2016 has lifted them into the top four in that short period of two and a half years. Perhaps the fact that many of their season-ticket holders have been staying away from games, amid general disaffection with the venue, will lead to an eventual reduction in attendances, or maybe West Ham will see their figures hold up for a couple of decades and finally break up the apparently unmovable big ten."