Scamming At Immigration

[CharlieH]

off topic post/response removed

[fforest1]

24 minutes ago, CMNightRider said:

The American Consulate clerks never had a problem collecting $50 to notarise the income letters until they were asked to verify the amount of money the person was swearing he was receiving monthly.  This simple task does not take a certified accountant to verify.  Someone with a sixth grade reading level comprehension should have no problem doing this especially since they are collecting $50 a letter.  

 

None of this comes as a surprise.  Government workers tend not to be that motivated anyway, so they should be happy now they have less work to do and still receive the same pay check.

 

Thai Immigration officers should be happy too since they will have far less foreigners to deal with that either can't or won't go alone with their plan to make the Thai bankers wealthy for doing little to no work.  

 

It looks like one big happy party, until you look at a lot of Isaan women along with their kids waving goodbye to their foreign husbands they will never see again.  Countries like Mexico, Panama, and Portugal are looking far more attractive today as retirement destinations.  I don't thing we will see anymore travel articles about retiring in Thailand either.  ????

 

 

 

  

 

      

Yea the Thai retirement movement that was charging full steam ahead looks like its just about to run out of gas...Must be 10s of thousands of unsold condos that will just be sitting there rotting unless they can be rented out......

I also forecast a big rise in the number of sick Isan buffaloes..  

Edited March 1, 2019 by fforest1

[Lovethailandelite]

1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

I have to think you posted this in jest, so I will respond in a humorous fashion. 

 

Many use these little plastic things called "ATM Cards," which even work internationally, if you can believe it - a neat little invention. 

 

Evidently, Immigration doesn't know those exist yet either, which would account for demanding "cash or travelers checks only" for tourists at the airports, and their "monthly international transfers" scheme.

Strange things these ATM cards. No matter how much I look at it, I simply cannot see if I have any money in the account or not?
My credit cards are the same. I just cannot see what my credit limit is!

[JackThompson]

23 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

Strange things these ATM cards. No matter how much I look at it, I simply cannot see if I have any money in the account or not?
My credit cards are the same. I just cannot see what my credit limit is!

Yes, but they have these amazing "readers" which can show the available balance/credit of these newfangled things. 

[jesimps]

10 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

I think if the OP seasons his account at more than 800,000 baht for 3 months is it?... (and now 2 months afterwards)....  he will then meet the requirements... 

 

So.. OP - for how many months have you had more than 800,000 baht in your account?...   It may be possible to fly out and do a visa run or apply for a tourist Vientiane etc while you bide your time seasoning 800,000 baht in your account. 

 

Unless of course I'm missing something. 

 

 

EDIT: And by the way, Embassies stopping the affirmation on Income has nothing to do with the Thai's - its to do with the Embassies themselves being unable to accurately affirm the claims made on income without a great deal of effort, thus opening them up to incorrect statements. Too many people were making false claims which could not be accurately verified opening the Embassy up to criticism of flawed affirmations. 

"Too many people were making false claims which could not be accurately verified opening the Embassy up to criticism of flawed affirmations."

 

Source? 

[tabarin]

At the Vientiane embassy there was always this pushy big guy with a tent. He always tried to get and check your passport if you wanted to quickly get the forms with him as that saves time, to then convince you having too many stamps and letting him take care of it. 

Now I always ignored him but the second time I was there again some Russian girl was actually turned down for a visa application but after paying him 10k baht she did pick up her passport with a visa the next day I was collecting too. So I guess they do have inside arrangements anywhere.

Funny thing also is that there were printed A4 notes stating agents are illegal and those applications will be turned down while he runs his business openly in front of the embassy and even makes visa photos on the spot.

Most likely turning people down randomly on purpose and knowing they then passing by the agent to pay some moneesh.

Edited March 1, 2019 by tabarin

[rott]

8 hours ago, Gecko123 said:

If the agent keeps the interest earned on the money in the account, and charges (as an earlier poster said 35,000)

 

Possibly the earlier poster does not know his anus from his elbow.

[onera1961]

8 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

One of the reasons I like living here is the cash society. 

Cash society? I use my Bangkok Bank ATM cards for most transaction where it is possible. As it has a huge informal sector that generates mostly subsistence level of incomes, it is not fully digitized but it will change slowly. And also the mind set. I went to India and saw even the street vendors are accepting phone payment (Paytm). 

Edited March 1, 2019 by onera1961

[Curt1591]

10 hours ago, AGITATORKEN said:

Then what exactly do 600 people do at the American Embassy in Bangkok. The largest US embassy in the world and they do absolutely nothing for Americans living in Thailand.

 

Sent from my SM-G965F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

 

Although I agree that the Embassy, and the US government in general, do very little for Americans, living abroad or at home, it is the ACS who handles such matters. It is the contact between US citizens and the US government. It doesn't have a huge staff.

According to a 2010 census, there were 40,000 Americans living in Thailand. Ready to take up the job?

Embassies are more aimed at facilitating interaction between the US government and the country in which they are based. They are a "diplomatic mission". They are more focused at dealing with Thailand than with US citizens.

[jacko45k]

11 hours ago, Spidey said:

Make your mind up. I have an American friend who got an appointment a week before they ceased issuing them.

I seem to recall posts showing which days still had appointments available, as you say up to quite close to the final day.

[AGITATORKEN]

Yes I could and probably will do that. Bottom line I'd there is no reason for this crap. These people are so dishonest it is a stretch considering them members of the human race. I am out of here.

I'm sure one could bargain or look around to find an agent for 25K who will take care of everything. Just think of it. 25K is only $75/month or consider it as a tribute for staying in Thailand.

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[AGITATORKEN]

I appreciate your apology as I have a MBA and if it was legitimate it makes perfect sense. The bottom line is there is no money transfer, it I's a paper forged book and immigration is in on the scam. Furthermore, there is no reason for this nonsense. I am a good expat pumping money into their economy.

If the agent keeps the interest earned on the money in the account, and charges (as an earlier poster said 35,000 baht for the service), and you look at the legwork of running to immigration as "loan origination costs," then the "passbook seasoning" operation can effectively be seen as a loansharking operation. Consider:
 
800,000 untouched in a Bangkok bank 3 yr fixed term account would earn 1.62% interest (minus tax .15%) = 11,016 baht return on capital for an ordinary depositor.
 
But the seasoning agent (not taking into consideration any bribes or expenses he has to pay) who is charging 35,000 baht for this service, would be earning 4.375% on his 800,000 capital expense. If the agent keeps the 11,016 in interest earned on this capital as well, this would earn a total of 46,016 baht or a 5.752% return (3.55 times more than an ordinary depositor would earn), which is a sufficiently attractive rate of return to attract capital.

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[tgeezer]

I am an American Expat who has been living in Thailand and had a retirement visa since 2008. I just attempted to renew my retirement Visa and was refused.  Here is the story and a real accounting of what is going on:
 
1- Embassy's stopped issuing income certification letters, probably under pressure from the Thai government.
2- No matter what you bring to Immigration, they will not accept.  I brought my bank book with transfer from America in the last six months totaling Bt. 1.4 million.  The bank book clearly states that the money came from an overseas transfer.  I was informed that it has to be Bt. 65,000 every month NOT AVERAGE, and certification has to come from my country.  I could probably get the certification from my bank, but I am positive they would not accept it.  I asked to see a supervisor but was refused.
 
HERE IS THE SCAM.
 
1- You can go to a Thai waiting outside the embassy knowing his buddy just turned you down.
2- For the tidy sum of $1,000 USD he will set up a phony bank account for you, pretend to deposit 800,000 in the account and fix it with his buddy.  You have to use his bank, which does not have internet banking for you to check the transfer.
3- My theory in reality is there is no money, the bankbook is just a piece of paper. There is no money transfer and it is a Thai scam. Pretty good income for a scam artist that earns $500/month.
 
 
For me it is the last straw of dishonesty in Asia and I will be selling my condo and my car and leaving.  If others did the same, they would put a stop to it. The American Embassy does absolutely nothing to help Americans in Thailand.
 
 

Good for you.
However if your previous extension is still valid you can probably use the appeals procedure. I believe that there is a number you can call. If it is a scam I am guessing that it can’t be very deep if the IO refused to let you see a supervisor.


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[Gecko123]

Can somebody please explain the mechanics of the "seasoning" scam? Is the passbook and bank letter forged by the agent? Or is the financial requirement simply "waived" by a corrupt IO? Or does the visa agent "loan" money to the visa holder which is actually deposited into the bank account?

 

Seems like if immigration was truly interested in stamping out financial eligibility fraud, banning visa agents (except for those with documented health problems) would eliminate 99% of this problem and immigration's requirement that funds be "seasoned" could be dropped.

Edited March 2, 2019 by Gecko123

[jacko45k]

13 minutes ago, Gecko123 said:

Can somebody please explain the mechanics of the "seasoning" scam? Is the passbook and bank letter forged by the agent? Or is the financial requirement simply "waived" by a corrupt IO? Or does the visa agent "loan" money to the visa holder which is actually deposited into the bank account?

Likely there is a multitude of variations depending on applicants circumstances. An example I know of:- Passport, photos, bank passbook and ATM/PIN supplied with the fee. The 800k money really does go into applicants true bank account, and soon afterwards it is removed again. One can presume a suitable bank letter is produced during that spell. The seasoning requirement (ie showing the passbook and copies of 3 month statement) is bypassed within Immigration and next thing the guy gets his passport back with Extension. No need to go in for a photo, although I hear some agents, more recently, have found it necessary to get the applicant to go in for this picture. 

Edited March 2, 2019 by jacko45k

[Spidey]

3 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Likely there is a multitude of variations depending on applicants circumstances. An example I know of:- Passport, photos, bank passbook and ATM/PIN supplied with the fee. The 800k money really does go into applicants true bank account, and soon afterwards it is removed again. One can presume a suitable bank letter is produced during that spell. The seasoning requirement (ie showing the passbook and copies of 3 month statement) is bypassed within Immigration and next thing the guy gets his passport back with Extension. No need to go in for a photo, although I hear some agents, more recently, have found it necessary to get the applicant to go in for this picture. 

I have 2 British friends who extend their visas exactly this way. Fee=15k baht.

 

However, under the new rules (as of yesterday) I fail to see how this method would work. Is the need to have the money in the account for 3 months after the extension waived? Is the need to have 400k in an account permanently, waived? Another poster has quoted 35k for the service.

 

One of my friends is already packing his bags, the other, I haven't spoken to recently.

[Tanoshi]

11 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Likely there is a multitude of variations depending on applicants circumstances. An example I know of:- Passport, photos, bank passbook and ATM/PIN supplied with the fee. The 800k money really does go into applicants true bank account, and soon afterwards it is removed again. One can presume a suitable bank letter is produced during that spell. The seasoning requirement (as I do, showing the passbook and copies of 3 month statement) is bypassed within Immigration and next thing the guy gets his passport back with Extension. No need to go in for a photo, although I hear some agents, more recently, have found it necessary to get the applicant to go in for this picture. 

For every application the IO must complete a checklist and sign it off.

If he 'waives' the 3 month seasoning period, he must state a reason why.

With technically now a 12 month seasoning period, an IO is going to find it far more difficult to simply 'waive' that off with a good reason.

[jacko45k]

2 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

With technically now a 12 month seasoning period, an IO is going to find it far more difficult to simply 'waive' that off with a good reason.

Presumably not until March 2020! 

Why is it more difficult to waive off 12 months rather than 3 months? It may just be more expensive! 

 

[Olmate]

3 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

For every application the IO must complete a checklist and sign it off.

If he 'waives' the 3 month seasoning period, he must state a reason why.

With technically now a 12 month seasoning period, an IO is going to find it far more difficult to simply 'waive' that off with a good reason.

If the seasoning after check is done as per the Phuket “random”method announced this week one might think agent applications may not be a problem!

[Tanoshi]

6 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Presumably not until March 2020! 

Why is it more difficult to waive off 12 months rather than 3 months? It may just be more expensive! 

 

Taking a much bigger risk to be caught out on audits and give a valid excuse.

[jacko45k]

8 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Taking a much bigger risk to be caught out on audits and give a valid excuse.

There were presumably quite a number of bypassed 3 month seasoning requirements previously that could have been caught out on audits? Ever heard of one being uncovered? 

Edited March 2, 2019 by jacko45k

[poohy]

15 hours ago, Gecko123 said:

If the agent keeps the interest earned on the money in the account, and charges (as an earlier poster said 35,000 baht for the service), and you look at the legwork of running to immigration as "loan origination costs," then the "passbook seasoning" operation can effectively be seen as a loansharking operation. Consider:

 

800,000 untouched in a Bangkok bank 3 yr fixed term account would earn 1.62% interest (minus tax .15%) = 11,016 baht return on capital for an ordinary depositor.

 

But the seasoning agent (not taking into consideration any bribes or expenses he has to pay) who is charging 35,000 baht for this service, would be earning 4.375% on his 800,000 capital expense. If the agent keeps the 11,016 in interest earned on this capital as well, this would earn a total of 46,016 baht or a 5.752% return (3.55 times more than an ordinary depositor would earn), which is a sufficiently attractive rate of return to attract capital.

Whilst i am impressed by your calculations

The 800k agent is PAPER transaction only no money ever enters the bank .

e.g Bank and IO "AND THE IM BOSSES" who take the lions share  and sundry persons  get their cut of "fee"then its profit

[Spidey]

2 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

There were presumably quite a number of bypassed 3 month seasoning requirements previously that could have been caught out on audits? Ever heard of one being uncovered? 

The waiver was for seasoning prior to having the extension granted. Could be a different kettle of fish for a waiver of seasoning for a full 12 months after the extension has been granted.

[jacko45k]

5 minutes ago, Spidey said:

The waiver was for seasoning prior to having the extension granted. Could be a different kettle of fish for a waiver of seasoning for a full 12 months after the extension has been granted.

How would an IO check the money is there after the application? Be it application or audit?

This can only be subsequently detected wrt the applicant and checked on the next Extension application. So is it again prior or indeed after? We are back to a question asked before.

Edited March 2, 2019 by jacko45k

[mngmn]

Has anyone considered how easy it would be to forge the required documentation since it is all based on mountains of paper.

 

I am guessing that all visa approvals easily pass an audit because all the documentation is always completely in order.

[Olmate]

4 minutes ago, Spidey said:

The waiver was for seasoning prior to having the extension granted. Could be a different kettle of fish for a waiver of seasoning for a full 12 months after the extension has been granted.

If the “random” checking for after/seasoning is followed then it’s easy to “overlook” agent supported extensions

[Spidey]

6 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

How would an IO check the money is there after the application? Be it application or audit?

This can only be subsequently detected wrt the applicant and checked on the next Extension application. So is it again prior or indeed after? We are back to a question asked before.

I don't think that anyone knows the answer to that yet.

[Tanoshi]

40 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

There were presumably quite a number of bypassed 3 month seasoning requirements previously that could have been caught out on audits? Ever heard of one being uncovered? 

Yep.

[jacko45k]

2 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Yep.

That in my mind would justify a full audit and 100% check on all issued retirement extensions based on the money in the bank. They should all have matching passbook copies going back the 3 months. I have never heard of any 'issues' personally.

Edited March 2, 2019 by jacko45k

[Tanoshi]

34 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

How would an IO check the money is there after the application? Be it application or audit?

This can only be subsequently detected wrt the applicant and checked on the next Extension application. So is it again prior or indeed after? We are back to a question asked before.

 

27 minutes ago, Spidey said:

I don't think that anyone knows the answer to that yet.

My IO categorically state the seasoning periods will be checked at your next application.

They will check the previous 12 months accounts to qualify for the next extension.