Expats in Thailand considering moving to Latin America prompted by Thai visa changes

[tutsiwarrior]

19 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Good old Jerry, vlogger expat in Mexico, shares the recent results of yet another best places to retire abroad findings. Some interesting details:

 

The TOP 5 are all in Latin America!

Mexico is number one!

Nicaragua is in the top ten! (Has it improved recently?)

Thailand has declined to be OFF the top ten. (No surprise.)

 

 

 

1 - Mexico

2 - Panama

3 - Ecuador

4 - Costa Rica

5 - Colombia

6 - Malaysia

7 - Spain

8 - Nicaragua

12 - Thailand

Matagalpa and Esteli in Nicaragua are worth investigating for cheap retirement...I visited both places 30 years ago and they had their charm, nicer than Leon and Grenada (high and mountainous and cooler) and both places since inhabited by gringo retirees...there ain't much to the locally prepared food (tacos 'al pastor' and black beans mostly) but there are markets everywhere for those that cook...

 

and that Flor de Cana white rum can't be beat anywhere...better than any caribbean rum that I've tasted...the beer ain't bad either...stay as far away from Managua as possible, never been in a more horrible place...and back in those days I thought that I was tough...

 

 

Edited December 10, 2019 by tutsiwarrior

[Jingthing]

22 minutes ago, tutsiwarrior said:

Matagalpa and Esteli in Nicaragua are worth investigating for cheap retirement...I visited both places 30 years ago and they had their charm, nicer than Leon and Grenada (high and mountainous and cooler) and both places since inhabited by gringo retirees...there ain't much to the locally prepared food (tacos 'al pastor' and black beans mostly) but there are markets everywhere for those that cook...

 

and that Flor de Cana white rum can't be beat anywhere...better than any caribbean rum that I've tasted...the beer ain't bad either...stay as far away from Managua as possible, never been in a more horrible place...and back in those days I thought that I was tough...

 

 

I haven't followed whether the political situation has calmed down enough for it to be reasonable to consider Nicaragua or not. Obviously it didn't get nearly as bad as Venezuela but the last time I checked they have probably the lowest financial requirement for expat retirement status in the world. (But could be outdated info.) As far as Managua well I think that's where the decent hospital is and it's in striking distance of Grenada. Yeah I'm sure the food is pretty darned boring if it's anything like Costa Rican food. 

[seasia]

On 12/8/2019 at 5:51 PM, Jingthing said:

Seems like a good, detailed, and importantly CURRENT guide to Mexican immigration. 

 

https://www.mexperience.com/wp-content/uploads/Mexico-Immigration-Guide-2019-Mexperience.pdf

 

 

Thanks

 

I read the 1st quarter yesterday and then skimmed through the rest earlier.

 

On the subject of the visitor s permit, a stand out there it is possible is arrive in Mexico without visa. Then provided being a national of one of  the many "no visa required " countries you get a permit allowing up to a 180 day stay. All sounds easy and hassle free.

 

In addition to some/many that may be considering relocation I am sure there is probably a near equal number of people looking at doing the "winter snowbird " stay. From say Canada, UK, northern Europe, Scandinavia etc.

 

So comparing to Thailand where most nationalities will only receive 30 days visa free, you can go to Mexico and get 180 days.

 

That is a big positive in my mind.

Various other LATAM countries also quite generous compared to Thailand with their visa free stay lengths.

 

On to their temporary residence scheme, that seems quite fair and not too onerous.

[Jingthing]

28 minutes ago, seasia said:

Thanks

 

I read the 1st quarter yesterday and then skimmed through the rest earlier.

 

On the subject of the visitor s permit, a stand out there it is possible is arrive in Mexico without visa. Then provided being a national of one of  the many "no visa required " countries you get a permit allowing up to a 180 day stay. All sounds easy and hassle free.

 

In addition to some/many that may be considering relocation I am sure there is probably a near equal number of people looking at doing the "winter snowbird " stay. From say Canada, UK, northern Europe, Scandinavia etc.

 

So comparing to Thailand where most nationalities will only receive 30 days visa free, you can go to Mexico and get 180 days.

 

That is a big positive in my mind.

Various other LATAM countries also quite generous compared to Thailand with their visa free stay lengths.

 

On to their temporary residence scheme, that seems quite fair and not too onerous.

Indeed!

Yes getting 6 months tourist status on arrival is very generous. 

Colombia I recall is 3 months but you can extend another 3 months but no more than 6 months total stay on tourist status in each calendar year.

For Mexico if you want to apply for temporary or permanent residence, you apply outside of Mexico.

 

[Jingthing]

Just a reminder -- one of the key original reasons I started this thread was to highlight / discuss the special issues that expats that have lived in Thailand may have if attempting to apply for residence in Latin America. That is largely about their apostille conventions and sometimes very rigid requirement to have police reports from where you were living before AND possibly your home country as well, FRESH, and in some cases for multiple applications over time. Just some paper and documents some might say, but could be a real roadblock even a deal breaker.

 

(No, not all the countries there require this, but most seem to.)

 

I mention this because I had a quick look for Nicaragua information and I happened upon quite a dated page, but I appreciated that it explicitly mentioned the very difficult problems people with unusual backgrounds have. Their example was about a woman married to an Eastern European that had been living in Bali for the past 10 years. The template for these visas seems to assume more typical backgrounds, like a Canadian expatriating for the first time.

 

Another point that was mentioned that might be more Nicaragua specific but probably not entirely was the need to have all the documents in hand gathered because offices tend to not even want to deal with mailing things to Nicaragua. I've heard of cases where people have gotten such documents to Ecuador and Mexico would seem more usual in the U.S. and Canada so that may be less of an issue depending on which country.

 

To add my current understanding is that both Mexico and Colombia will not be requiring these reports for retirement status applications. However, adding that (which are typical in Latin America) was on the list of proposed visa changes for Colombia.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

On top of a lot of general comments about international real estate, some more on topic discussion about the relative values of purchasing real estate in Colombia vs. Bangkok, Phnom Penh, and Kuala Lumpur. Shorter version -- Colombia is a bargain now. With the caveat that he's only interested in the great cities of different countries but the way I see it you can do like to like comparisons for different sorts of locations as well.

 

For those with lots of liquid cash, Colombia offers residency based on a level of real estate purchase.

 

 

[grifbel]

On 12/4/2019 at 10:13 AM, Jingthing said:

Perhaps regretfully this is not an appropriate platform for people to offer personal donations and such like. For generous people with money burning a hole in  their pockets may  I suggest sites like gofundme? 

Let us know when your gofundme is set up.

[grifbel]

On 12/4/2019 at 10:18 AM, Jingthing said:

I'm not surprised by that. But to sample a bit of the Caribbean culture on the mainland has an appeal to tourists. 

Jaco is on the Pacific coast mainland and has nothing to do with Caribbean culture?  Google maps is a great resource if you are unfamiliar with what you are writing about, as in this case.

[grifbel]

On 12/10/2019 at 9:23 AM, tutsiwarrior said:

Flor de Cana white rum can't be beat anywhere

Wrong.  The 7 year Flor de Cana is much better and excellent value.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, grifbel said:

Jaco is on the Pacific coast mainland and has nothing to do with Caribbean culture?  Google maps is a great resource if you are unfamiliar with what you are writing about, as in this case.

Indeed on that point you are entirely correct. Thanks for that and I definitely should have known better as I've toured around Costa Rica. I might have been thinking about Bluefields, Nicaragua in a neighboring country on the mainland that does indeed have a Caribbean culture. 

[Jingthing]

13 minutes ago, grifbel said:

Let us know when your gofundme is set up.

Don't hold your breath dear. 

[tutsiwarrior]

1 minute ago, grifbel said:

Wrong.  The 7 year Flor de Cana is much better and excellent value.

I was just talkin' about the Flor de cana available locally in small shops in Nica...never seen anything but the standard white rum and it was excellent value...sometimes cheaper than bottled water...

[tutsiwarrior]

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Indeed on that point you are entirely correct. Thanks for that and I definitely should have known better as I've toured around Costa Rica. I might have been thinking about Bluefields, Nicaragua in a neighboring country on the mainland that does indeed have a Caribbean culture. 

I always heard that Bluefields was a malaria ridden s***hole that was best stayed away from like most places on the nica caribbean coast...

 

 

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, tutsiwarrior said:

I always heard that Bluefields was a malaria ridden s***hole that was best stayed away from like most places on the nica caribbean coast...

 

 

Sounds about right. It's definitely not an expat haven. 

[Cryingdick]

On 12/12/2019 at 9:40 PM, tutsiwarrior said:

I always heard that Bluefields was a malaria ridden s***hole that was best stayed away from like most places on the nica caribbean coast...

 

 

 

My friend is American but was born in Nicaragua. Rescued when he was a baby by Catholic missionaries. He goes back from time to time and says it isn't safe. His family won't let him go anywhere in the small village at night.

 

He says the food isn't great either. Very limited. He doesn't go to Nicaragua because he finds it enjoyable but to see his family. Nicaragua is still dangerous and people promoting the place with no knowledge of it are being irresponsible to say the least.

 

 

[Banana7]

What about Argentina? Anybody have any recommendations or experience in Argentina?

 

Argentina has about USD$200 billion of debt due in 2020, and they are hungry for USD. There maybe be some good deals for renting/buying if done in USD. Their main source of foreign currency is exports, mostly food exports. Now they are planning to increase the export tax on food.

 

Buenos Aires has beautiful women. Maybe Cordoba is suitable too? 

 

What's the immigration requirements?

[Jingthing]

22 minutes ago, Banana7 said:

What about Argentina? Anybody have any recommendations or experience in Argentina?

 

Argentina has about USD$200 billion of debt due in 2020, and they are hungry for USD. There maybe be some good deals for renting/buying if done in USD. Their main source of foreign currency is exports, mostly food exports. Now they are planning to increase the export tax on food.

 

Buenos Aires has beautiful women. Maybe Cordoba is suitable too? 

 

What's the immigration requirements?

Argentina has been mentioned numerous times before on the thread. I did a fairly long stay in Buenos Aires myself and loved it but for various reasons which I've posted about before, Argentina doesn't interest me as a retirement destination. If you're interested you may want to do your own current research and post about it here.

 

To add, if you're interested in Argentina you might want to look into neighboring Uruguay. It has middle level retirement status requirements which I am unfortunately a tad under but if I wasn't it would be up there on my list. 

[Banana7]

19 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Argentina has been mentioned numerous times before on the thread. I did a fairly long stay in Buenos Aires myself and loved it but for various reasons which I've posted about before, Argentina doesn't interest me as a retirement destination. If you're interested you may want to do your own current research and post about it here.

 

To add, if you're interested in Argentina you might want to look into neighboring Uruguay. It has middle level retirement status requirements which I am unfortunately a tad under but if I wasn't it would be up there on my list. 

I'll do more research. However, ARS currency is plummeting which reminds me of Thailand's currency issues back in 1997-1998.

 

In May 2019 USD=44.3 ARS, today 15 Dec. 2019 USD= 59.63 ARS, and ARS will probably continue to devalue.

 

 

[tutsiwarrior]

3 hours ago, Banana7 said:

I'll do more research. However, ARS currency is plummeting which reminds me of Thailand's currency issues back in 1997-1998.

 

In May 2019 USD=44.3 ARS, today 15 Dec. 2019 USD= 59.63 ARS, and ARS will probably continue to devalue.

 

 

back in the 90s it was worse and I wondered how a big vibrant place like Buenos Aires could survive...I was in Bolivia in the 80s and shops in Cochabamba simply shut down, when youl'd ask what something cost they'd say 'no tiene precio' meaning that the price could double the next day...strangely enough meat and veg remained nearly the same...locally produced...

 

hyper inflation is really bad and can seriously screw things up and cause chaos...hard to find a pack of smokes sometimes...folks useta barter fer stuff when it got bad and hoard making the problems worse...

 

 

[Jingthing]

Don't shoot the messenger.

I have some rather major news about financial requirements for temporary and permanent residence in Mexico.

It's a double whammy.

First the currency. The Mexican Peso has recently strengthened.

Then the minimum wage. Financial requirements (as for Colombia) are based on a set multiple of the minimum wage. 
Well the minimum wage is set to go up over 20 percent.

So that means that the financial requirements (either based on income or showing money) also go up over 20 percent. 

Before I was wondering in what ways a leftist populist new leader would impact on expats.

Well now we know some ways.

His tactic to "hug" the cartels doesn't seem to be working, although that as before will be location dependent.

Now the rise in minimum wage directly increasing financial requirements for expats. Without commenting on whether this is  a good or bad domestic policy for Mexico (not really in the bounds of this thread) it could definitely be a problem for some potential expats.

 

To credit the source of this news, check out this information site on retiring in Mexico that is as you might expect, American-centric.

 

https://qroo.us/

[ThomasThBKK]

21 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Don't shoot the messenger.

I have some rather major news about financial requirements for temporary and permanent residence in Mexico.

It's a double whammy.

First the currency. The Mexican Peso has recently strengthened.

Then the minimum wage. Financial requirements (as for Colombia) are based on a set multiple of the minimum wage. 
Well the minimum wage is set to go up over 20 percent.

So that means that the financial requirements (either based on income or showing money) also go up over 20 percent. 

Before I was wondering in what ways a leftist populist new leader would impact on expats.

Well now we know some ways.

His tactic to "hug" the cartels doesn't seem to be working, although that as before will be location dependent.

Now the rise in minimum wage directly increasing financial requirements for expats. Without commenting on whether this is  a good or bad domestic policy for Mexico (not really in the bounds of this thread) it could definitely be a problem for some potential expats.

 

To credit the source of this news, check out this information site on retiring in Mexico that is as you might expect, American-centric.

 

https://qroo.us/

 

Hard for a pensions to grow the same % way an emerging market salary rate will go up in the future. if their currency acts like the THB then people will be in a baaaaad surprise and there's nothing you can do to anticipate it.

[Jingthing]

9 minutes ago, ThomasThBKK said:

 

Hard for a pensions to grow the same % way an emerging market salary rate will go up in the future. if their currency acts like the THB then people will be in a baaaaad surprise and there's nothing you can do to anticipate it.

Yes indeed. But it's not all bad news. Mexico like Thailand has a show the money option. It's my view that most potential retired expats to Mexico will be at least able to show the temporary residence level the one time. Then it's my understanding that you renew for 4 years (I think without even needing to ever show the money again) and then you automatically transition to permanent. If I'm wrong about that, someone correct. That's much better than Thailand with the 24/7, 365 days a year direct or virtual scrutiny of the bank accounts of those using the 800K method. Probably if a person doesn't have the savings levels for Mexico temporary (shown OUTSIDE of Mexico) then they probably can't afford to retire in Mexico or anywhere anyway. The levels for permanent going in are much higher and I'm still not clear if showing money in retirement accounts like IRAs will work. So I think the majority probably will not have that initial permanent level liquid outside retirement accounts.

 

Also of course Mexico is wonderfully EASY for part time residents, snowbirds, "retired" or not. Just show up with a western passport and you can stay SIX months. 

Edited December 17, 2019 by Jingthing

[ThomasThBKK]

14 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Yes indeed. But it's not all bad news. Mexico like Thailand has a show the money option. It's my view that most potential retired expats to Mexico will be at least able to show the temporary residence level the one time. Then it's my understanding that you renew for 4 years (I think without even needing to ever show the money again) and then you automatically transition to permanent. If I'm wrong about that, someone correct. That's much better than Thailand with the 24/7, 365 days a year direct or virtual scrutiny of the bank accounts of those using the 800K method. Probably if a person doesn't have the savings levels for Mexico temporary (shown OUTSIDE of Mexico) then they probably can't afford to retire in Mexico or anywhere anyway. The levels for permanent going in are much higher and I'm still not clear if showing money in retirement accounts like IRAs will work. So I think the majority probably will not have that initial permanent level liquid outside retirement accounts.

 

Also of course Mexico is wonderfully EASY for part time residents, snowbirds, "retired" or not. Just show up with a western passport and you can stay SIX months. 

 

https://qroo.us/2019/06/20/retiring-in-mexico-the-one-thing-we-wish-we-had-done-differently/

 

seems to be better to just apply for permanent residency directly  and skip the temporary one all together. It's even cheaper to do it that way - if you have the money for perm residence (savings,real estate or income). However if you take the 4 years temp residency and then the permanent one you only need to fullfill the temp residency money requirement which is a bit less:

 

http://qroo.us/2018/07/10/retiring-in-mexico-financial-requirements-for-residency/

 

 

Overall not cheaper in terms of visa to life there imo, temp residency costs what the retirement visa here costs, but it seems more permanent so thats good. Just not the cheap visa i thought it is.

 

[sunnyboy2018]

On 11/22/2019 at 1:26 AM, JaiLai said:

Can you speak french / portuguese?

 

i've been to several west african countries, found ghana about the most civilised but would still never consider living there.

Well I can get by in French and Portuguese for survival purposes but many people speak English and these days there are many good translation apps. Why Ghana?

[seasia]

When I read the post here about the Mexican minimum wage to rise by 20 %, my first thought was that could cause inflation to rise.

Some asked by reuters seem to think similar.

 

However the Mexico minimum wage was raised by 16 % on Jan 1st 2019.

Inflation has actually been fairly stable so perhaps that will not be an issue.

 

"The Mexican government on Monday agreed to raise the daily minimum wage by 20%, the second consecutive major increase, but experts said a large hike could make it challenging for the central bank to keep core inflation under control.

 

We continue to gradually recover the value that the minimum salary has lost over time without creating instability, without creating inflation,” Mexican President Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador said. “This is an important increase.”..................

 

Full    article             https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mexico-wages/mexico-to-hike-daily-minimum-wage-by-20-experts-worry-about-inflation-idUSKBN1YL051

[Jingthing]

Some background on why there is so much unrest currently in large parts of Latin America. Of course these countries include the top expat destinations such as Mexico so worth paying attention. 

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/12/03/americas/five-keys-latin-america-protests-romo-intl/index.html

 

Quote

 

What’s behind the upheaval in Latin America?: The reasons go far beyond ideological labels

 

What’s happening in Latin America?” That’s the question I’ve been getting in recent weeks from those who may not necessarily be familiar with the region but have noticed a spike in headlines this year about Latin America and the turmoil that countries like Ecuador, Chile, Bolivia and most recently Colombia have experienced.

 

 

[thailandsgreat]

Smaller countries like Bolivia, Ecuador nice. Argentina, Chile not so good attitude, except BA, Patagonia and some other areas. Tension white/black ppl in Brazil. N Mex drug problems, Yucatan soso, mountains nice. C.Rica relaxed. Cuba ok. Colombia ok and safer nowadays.

 

I wonder how the Pattaya guys would like S.A. The areas where many farlang spend time in Thailand are designed for foreigner. Thai are used to foreigner there. In S.A. you usually end up interacting with locals that are less used to foreigner. 

 

Food in Thailand outstanding and cheap.

 

More tension and less safe in S.A. More strict in S.A. 

Edited December 22, 2019 by thailandsgreat

[digibum]

On 12/6/2019 at 4:04 PM, Jingthing said:

We've had a lot of intentionally scaremongering posts over the course of this thread about crime and violence in specific countries in Latin America. I've been careful to point out that people should calm down and DIFFERENTIATE between the crime problems that are likely to impact expats in the specific places that they may be living VS. other places where expats generally and correctly fear to tread. For example the Pacific coast of Colombia has extremely high crime and I've never even heard of a typical expat moving there.

 

HOWEVER, I have come across a news story that I am taking a lot more seriously. About cartel control in San Miguel de Allende of all places!

 

I've had the feeling there are some places in Mexico where it's not rational to be very afraid of cartels. I still think there are such places. But if San Miguel de Allende can be impacted this way, I now am wondering if anyplace in Mexico is really immune any more. 

 

Yes, even Queretaro City. 

 

https://cuencahighlife.com/drug-cartels-move-into-mexican-town-popular-with-u-s-and-canadian-expats/

 

 

You make some excellent points about the scaremongering posts, but, as you say, it's not all roses either. 

 

The wife and I spent about a year trying to decide if we wanted to do Latin America, SEA, or move back to Thailand, doing quite a bit of research on all of the options, including asking lots of friends who have lived in LA or are originally from LA countries. 

 

I have also been to Mexico dozens of times over the years and have many, many pleasant memories.  I have never been shaken down by police or been robbed or had any overly negative experiences.  So, no bone to pick either. 

 

That said, even the people that speak glowingly of LA often caveat it with the fact that things can get dangerous depending on where you are. 

 

That's really not a caution you hear about in Thailand.  Sure, you've got scammers and petty theft but there are no parts of Thailand that are too dangerous for foreigners to visit (that I'm aware of). 

 

Ultimately, it was very difficult to draw apples-to-apples comparisons between Thailand (and much of SEA) compared to LA because LA is, essentially, a part of or an extension of western-culture. 

 

If you came to Thailand because it is so different from western-culture, that's a hard thing to reconcile by moving to a LA country with a western based culture.

 

Of course, if cost or ease of getting a long-stay visa was your major driver, maybe that's less of a concern. 

[Jingthing]

19 minutes ago, digibum said:

 

You make some excellent points about the scaremongering posts, but, as you say, it's not all roses either. 

 

The wife and I spent about a year trying to decide if we wanted to do Latin America, SEA, or move back to Thailand, doing quite a bit of research on all of the options, including asking lots of friends who have lived in LA or are originally from LA countries. 

 

I have also been to Mexico dozens of times over the years and have many, many pleasant memories.  I have never been shaken down by police or been robbed or had any overly negative experiences.  So, no bone to pick either. 

 

That said, even the people that speak glowingly of LA often caveat it with the fact that things can get dangerous depending on where you are. 

 

That's really not a caution you hear about in Thailand.  Sure, you've got scammers and petty theft but there are no parts of Thailand that are too dangerous for foreigners to visit (that I'm aware of). 

 

Ultimately, it was very difficult to draw apples-to-apples comparisons between Thailand (and much of SEA) compared to LA because LA is, essentially, a part of or an extension of western-culture. 

 

If you came to Thailand because it is so different from western-culture, that's a hard thing to reconcile by moving to a LA country with a western based culture.

 

Of course, if cost or ease of getting a long-stay visa was your major driver, maybe that's less of a concern. 

Yes on all your points.

The idea of this topic hasn't ever been to suggest that Latin America is better (or worse) than Thailand. 

We all have different circumstances and by now I think it's not controversial and really already baked in that a rather significant number of expats in Thailand are considering (or have already) going elsewhere. (Strong baht, visa and immigration tightening and increased hassles, health insurance requirements, etc.) Targets include home countries, neighboring countries to Thailand, eastern and wester Europe, and Latin America is on that list especially for North Americans. 

 

There are some more expat bubble areas in Latin America where it can be easier to function as a foreigner, but I'm not sure there is anywhere there with the ease offered in Thailand in the expat magnets for such basic things as getting housing, banking, etc.

 

I've recently been following some stories of expat stress and drama in trying to get locally priced unfurnished apartments in Colombia. Compare to Pattaya you can basically throw a rock and find someone willing to rent to you on the spot. Such things really do make a big difference and of course there are very good reasons to stay in Thailand for people that can manage the immigration hoops, etc.

[NaamGin]

On 10/18/2019 at 10:52 AM, grifbel said:

https://www.businessinsider.com/latin-america-is-the-worlds-most-violent-region-crime-2019-9?r=US&IR=T

 

400 murders a day: 10 reasons why Latin America is the world's most violent place

Outside of active war zones, Latin America is the world's most violent region, despite some variations among countries there.

No single thing explains why there's so much bloodshed, but there are several factors common throughout the region.

 

Latin America is home to about 8% of the world's population but has about one-third of its homicides — in 2016, that meant some 400 homicides a day, or roughly 146,000 a year. But the bloodshed is not evenly distributed. 

 

.......

I have an opinion on why Latin America is so violent.

It's the "machista" of the latinos (males) and the values (or lack thereof) of their christian upbringing.

I have observed that christian societies are the 2nd most violent cultures on the planet...

Buddhist cultures are the least violent and most receptive of foreigners.

Before you flame me, these are just my observations after living/working/traveling to over 50 countries. YMMV