Expelled no questions asked at Don Muang

[balo]

Give us an update of how it went when you're back in LOS. Thanks. 

 

[rott]

4 hours ago, elviajero said:

 

 

The evidence is all there. You just choose not to see it.

No, you choose not to see that the rules (imprecise as they are) are not applied evenly and uniformly.

 

If somebody is deemed to have stayed too long why not just say so? Is it better to lie and invent a false reason?

 

It would be be better if the rules were clearer, then people would know what is acceptable and what is not.

 

In the meantime keep on saying that somebody producing ten times the required amount of cash is rightfully turned away for having insufficient funds.

 

You must really hate Thailand when you actively condone and encourage this sort of abusive conduct.

Edited March 8, 2019 by rott

[rott]

3 hours ago, JackThompson said:

 

 

And for the older snowbirds, agent-fees for retirees are going up

Source for this please Jack.

 

Are you able to quote solid figures for this?

[lamyai3]

3 hours ago, Essecola said:

Where do I go? It is not Cambodia, Vietnam, or Philippines. So where then? Can I have a refund for my wasted money and young years here?

I think that's the wrong way to look at it. A carefree decade spent in Thailand as a younger man is always preferable to that same decade in old age, and hopefully you had many good experiences to make it worthwhile.

 

Sadly, the carefree past of the country is disappearing fast - it wasn't long ago that exchange rates were good, coupled with prices that were also significantly lower, visa problems were rare, and stories like that of the OP were practically unheard of. 

[lamyai3]

4 hours ago, Caldera said:

Easy, they might simply get a share of the outrageous 800 baht detention "hostel" fee. I don't know any other country that charges a fee for being involuntarily detained at an airport, that in itself is a scandal.

Wouldn't surprise me if they're also running a sweepstake among themselves as to who can rack up the most denials of entry per month. 

[Banana7]

I do not know of this will help, but maybe it will. Request a TM11 form, an appeal form, complete it and submit it.

 

You could also try to phone immigration hotline 1178.

Or Police Lt. General Surachate  Hakpal  +66 816 44 .0430

 

 

TM11appealform.pdf

Edited March 8, 2019 by Banana7

[BritTim]

53 minutes ago, rott said:

If somebody is deemed to have stayed too long why not just say so? Is it better to lie and invent a false reason?

This is what I speculate. Senior officials in the Immigration Bureau want the rules changed so that officials can determine whether someone qualifies for entry based on the visa that was issued. In particular, they want discretion to decide if someone is a "genuine tourist", not just whether (as they are currently empowered to do) deny entry because of illegal working. I believe the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is blocking such a change on the basis that deciding who qualifies for a visa is their responsibility.

[Essecola]

3 hours ago, jimn said:

Sounds like you are a little bit racist. How do you know the "Asian" you show your passport too, is not born in and is a citizen of that country. I assume like me you are from the UK? One more thing, enlighten us, what is the Visa you are so worried about?

Racist? Excuse me? So onward from becoming a minority in the country I was born in, where is the place in the world I call 'home' then? Where most of the people look the same as me. Will Thai people ever be having their passports checked by a farang when returning home from a trip? (No, never). These are points one of my Asian friends at 'home' pointed out to me in conversation once in reference to how him and others like him laugh about things like that when in private with other Asians. About how stupid we are. And somehow it makes me a racist? Please. I still dont know the place in the world that I call 'home'. But the Thais, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, and Indians & many others will not ever need to worry about this as they are not minorities in their own countries that they built and developed. Ah, but me just simply spending money here, not disturbing anyone, as part of a group of people, foreigners, that is near 1% of the place, is "too uncomfortable" for some. I see. Not a racist sir, sorry. These are just facts.

Edited March 8, 2019 by Essecola

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, rott said:

No, you choose not to see that the rules (imprecise as they are) are not applied evenly and uniformly.

Rubbish. I am well aware of how the rules are enforced. And with discretionary power will come inconsistency.

 

Quote

If somebody is deemed to have stayed too long why not just say so? Is it better to lie and invent a false reason?

It is not a false reason. 

 

To deny someone for staying to long would require regulations stating what is too long. The authorities are currently avoiding that — which long term tourists benefit from — and they don’t need to pass regulations because they can lawfully deny long term tourists under the catch all of 12 (2).

 

Quote

It would be be better if the rules were clearer, then people would know what is acceptable and what is not.

Better for who!?

 

Under the ‘discretionary’ enforcement policy only a few ‘westerners’ get denied entry and many continue to stay months/years.

 

You’re a turkey voting for Christmas. Set limits will mess it up for all long term tourists!

 

Quote

In the meantime keep on saying that somebody producing ten times the required amount of cash is rightfully turned away for having insufficient funds.

They were not denied entry for having insufficient funds!

 

They could have been carrying 1M baht and still lawfully be denied entry.

 

Quote

You must really hate Thailand when you actively condone and encourage this sort of abusive conduct.

What a ridiculous comment. I’m not condoning it and I have no influence to encourage it.

 

I am simply exlaining the law and why the claims of unlawful corrupt behaviour by IO’s denying entry to long term tourists is complete nonsense.

Edited March 8, 2019 by elviajero

[tingtongtourist]

Anyway, if its true

30 million tourist are coming to Thailand per year..

around 80,000 per day!!

 

and we hear of a few people get knocked back here

But TBH, we dont know the FULL story why these guys got locked out.

is there stuff they dont share on here?? (understandable)

 

No offence, but...

 

1. Thais can be judgemental about many things, even a Nigerian looking suntan (unfortunate but we cant change it)

and they assume many work illegally or upto no good.

 

2. Also many TROLLS are bored on thaivisa and those who just posting pure

bบแsหit !!!

 

So take away the above arguments and really,

getting denied entry when have a legit visa its really just a case of

 

"being shit outta luck"

[elviajero]

5 hours ago, Caldera said:

5 hours ago, elviajero said:

Can you explain how these corrupt officers denying entry to visitors like the OP are benefitting?

Easy, they might simply get a share of the outrageous 800 baht detention "hostel" fee. I don't know any other country that charges a fee for being involuntarily detained at an airport, that in itself is a scandal.

Really, that’s the best you’ve got?

 

I agree the fee is outrageous; but of course you know it’s written in immigration law that a fee can be charged to the carrier or alien for the cost of detention, right?

 

There is absolutely no doubt that some IO’s trouser fees and fines right across the country, but to suggest that they are denying entry to long term ‘western’ tourists at the airport in order to profit from a detention fee is just laughable!

 

You and others can’t seem to differentiate between legitimate immigration policy that you disagree with, and corruption.

[dbrenn]

1 hour ago, elviajero said:

There is absolutely no doubt that some IO’s trouser fees and fines right across the country, but to suggest that they are denying entry to long term ‘western’ tourists at the airport in order to profit from a detention fee is just laughable!

 

Who on earth knows whether they do or don't take a cut, or whether it just goes to the government coffers as a form of tax for dealing with kicking people out? There's no way any of us here can find out, so it seems a bit of a moot point to argue about.

 

The point affecting the OP is that immigration the world over deny entry to people who they believe are fiddling the visa system - living on a tourist visa or whatever. To single out Thailand is for doing this and call it some kind of corruption is absurd as you say.

 

Thailand has decided, rightly or wrongly, that it no longer wants to deal with long stayers, unless they qualify (and bother to apply) for a long stay visa. Tourists are still very welcome, but only for doing what tourists are supposed to do - having a short holiday then going back home and not coming back for an extended period of time.

 

It's sad for the people who love the place and don't cause any trouble, and I feel sorry for retirees who have invested so much in moving only to see the bar raised ever higher, but there is no point trying to fight it - there are visas available if you want to live in Thailand, but (like most places) they are becoming harder and more expensive to get.

Edited March 8, 2019 by dbrenn

[BritTim]

54 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

Thailand has decided, rightly or wrongly, that it no longer wants to deal with long stayers, unless they qualify (and bother to apply) for a long stay visa. Tourists are still very welcome, but only for doing what tourists are supposed to do - having a short holiday then going back home and not coming back for an extended period of time.

Why do you think that, for the most part, changes in rules for extensions of stay are announced, but rules for who can and cannot enter Thailand with a visa are kept secret?

[dbrenn]

2 minutes ago, BritTim said:

Why do you think that, for the most part, changes in rules for extensions of stay are announced, but rules for who can and cannot enter Thailand with a visa are kept secret?

Not being privy to government policy decisions, none of us here can say for sure. The nearest thing we've had to an announcement is "good guys in, bad guys out". A bad guy included into this policy may well include a poor guy, or a guy who presents as a tourist but clearly isn't one.

 

Again, it's a shame. I lived in Thailand for 4 years on tourist visas in the early 90's, but the policy then was to turn a blind eye. Getting questioned or refused entry was unheard of - the nearest thing to a crackdown was applying for a triple entry visa and only getting a double. My passport was packed with visas and nobody batted an eyelid. 

 

There were all sorts of interesting people around back then. I think that Thailand just prefers package tourists these days, which is easier  for them but is still a shame. 

[swbaggies]

3 hours ago, Essecola said:

Racist? Excuse me? So onward from becoming a minority in the country I was born in, where is the place in the world I call 'home' then? Where most of the people look the same as me. Will Thai people ever be having their passports checked by a farang when returning home from a trip? (No, never). These are points one of my Asian friends at 'home' pointed out to me in conversation once in reference to how him and others like him laugh about things like that when in private with other Asians. About how stupid we are. And somehow it makes me a racist? Please. I still dont know the place in the world that I call 'home'. But the Thais, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, and Indians & many others will not ever need to worry about this as they are not minorities in their own countries that they built and developed. Ah, but me just simply spending money here, not disturbing anyone, as part of a group of people, foreigners, that is near 1% of the place, is "too uncomfortable" for some. I see. Not a racist sir, sorry. These are just facts.

There are many Thai people with Chinese and mixed race background. Just as there are many British people with African, Caribbean and Asian backgrounds. Many of whom may have been born in that country. 

So to say all immigration officers in this country are 100%thai from including their family tree is a bit unlikely. 

[JAG]

7 hours ago, yuiop said:

So, to sum it up for the new comers:

someone with a tourist visa and 200K baht (yes, no typo) cash on him gets rejected on entry because, according to the IO, he doesn't have enough money to support himself during his 60 days stay.

Perhaps the real reason - if we are summing it up for newcomers - is because the IO noticed that he had a succession of visa exempt entries and extensions dating back for some 4 or more months, and deduced (not entirely unreasonably) that, now presenting with a tourist visa obtained in an adjacent country (not his home country) that he was effectively living in Thailand on inappropriate visas!

[Tayaout]

9 minutes ago, JAG said:

Perhaps the real reason - if we are summing it up for newcomers - is because the IO noticed that he had a succession of visa exempt entries and extensions dating back for some 4 or more months, and deduced (not entirely unreasonably) that, now presenting with a tourist visa obtained in an adjacent country (not his home country) that he was effectively living in Thailand on inappropriate visas!

I agree with you but I'm annoyed that they did not ask me any questions... I say them questioning everyone including a family of 4 that looked like typical tourist. I think I was probably unlucky. I don't plan to stay forever on tourist visa. I was planning a wedding and have the funds to do so. I'm only hesitant about the elite visa because I would prefer to give this money to my family to get a stable home. If it was not of my pregnant girlfriend I would not bother going back to Thailand. I know there is easier options right now in the area. Me and my girlfriend don't drink, party, etc. We are a simple family trying to have a quiet life and help those around us when we can. 

Edited March 9, 2019 by Tayaout

[BritTim]

5 minutes ago, JAG said:

Perhaps the real reason - if we are summing it up for newcomers - is because the IO noticed that he had a succession of visa exempt entries and extensions dating back for some 4 or more months, and deduced (not entirely unreasonably) that, now presenting with a tourist visa obtained in an adjacent country (not his home country) that he was effectively living in Thailand on inappropriate visas!

If immigration officials should have the power to make such a decision, surely the law should be changed such that it does not explicitly forbid them from denying entry other then pursuant to Section 12 of the Immigration Act. At the very least, any policy to ignore the law should be publicly announced. Trying to claim that Section 12 (2) was intended to give officials the power to arbitrarily deny entry to those the officials believe should not have been issued tourist visas does not strike me as reasonable.

[freedomnow]

21 minutes ago, Tayaout said:

I agree with you but I'm annoyed that they did not ask me any questions...

Where are you now ? Have you come back in yet ?

[Tayaout]

12 minutes ago, freedomnow said:

Where are you now ? Have you come back in yet ?

I posted an update earlier. I had to explain the situation with Laos immigration. They were very friendly and no problem with them at all. I will try to explain my situation at the thai land border but already booked a flight from Laos to Malaysia if it doesn't work out. 

Edited March 9, 2019 by Tayaout

[Briggsy]

1 minute ago, Tayaout said:

I posted an update earlier. I had to explain the situation with Laos immigration. They were very friendly and no problem with them at all. I will try to explain my situation at the land border but already booked a flight from Laos to Malaysia if it doesn't work out. 

No need to explain anything on entering Thailand at Nong Khai if they don't specifically ask. Present passport with TM6 filled in with SETV number. You will be fine. And as you said, you have a back-up plan.

[puukao]

Why would you retire, live, etc.... in a place where you can be kicked out for almost no reason???  is this life security?  how is this fun for anyone?

 

what if your friends get kicked out?  follow the rules, still kicked out..

 

have fun.  hahahhahahahahhahahhahahahahha  thanks for playing and spending all your money

 

 

[JAG]

54 minutes ago, BritTim said:

If immigration officials should have the power to make such a decision, surely the law should be changed such that it does not explicitly forbid them from denying entry other then pursuant to Section 12 of the Immigration Act. At the very least, any policy to ignore the law should be publicly announced. Trying to claim that Section 12 (2) was intended to give officials the power to arbitrarily deny entry to those the officials believe should not have been issued tourist visas does not strike me as reasonable.

An Immigration Officer's prerogative to refuse entry to visa holders is by no means confined to Thailand, it exists in many/most countries, including the UK and USA. There is I believe an "on the spot" appeals procedure (form TM12?) which can be used to challenge the refusal.

 

Perhaps the law should be reviewed, although I am not sure how we, as expatriates, could lobby for that, and if we did it may well be counterproductive!

 

The arbitrary nature of these powers, and how they are exercised are I suspect more a result of a culture of keeping power in the hands of uniformed individuals, for reasons of face status and self esteem, an unintended if welcome consequence rather than a legal intention.  Probably not reasonable from a Westerners perspective, probably untroubling to those in authority here. Not fair, yes, but as my father used to say (in a Lancashire accent): "it's not fair (fur) it's rabbits wool!"

 

It results of course in the sort of occurrence described by the OP. I imagine we all feel these occasional twinge of insecurity - I am shortly to make my annual (well 15 monthly) trip to Savannah to renew my O visa ( based on marriage); there should be no problem but you never know! Similarly, when taking my quarterly stroll across the bridge at Mae Sai, (I only live 40 minutes drive from there so it is "sabai sabai"), It does occasionally cross my mind...

 

Thailand maintains a visa system which allows them to control the categories of people that they are prepared to allow to live in the country. It is being more rigourously applied of late - because of some significant abuse, which has often been boasted about here and elsewhere, principally in the area of proving income for retirement and education visas. I don't think changing the law will make a difference.

 

Good luck "Tayout" at Nong Khai

 

Edited March 9, 2019 by JAG

[Caldera]

3 hours ago, elviajero said:

You and others can’t seem to differentiate between legitimate immigration policy that you disagree with, and corruption.

Legitimate immigration policy would be having a set of clear rules that are enforced across all checkpoints. It's not that I cannot differentiate that from corruption - I just don't see it, because it doesn't exist.

 

Thai police are masters at petty extortion. That's a well-oiled machine as far as extracting money from Thais is concerned. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that well with foreign visitors from countries that are less corrupt than Thailand - it will be all over the internet in no time. Just look at how it destroyed the nice little "200 baht in passport" scheme the Sadao checkpoint was running. At Don Mueang Airport, Chinese visitors whose right to enter was questionable were sold overpriced VOAs, until that made the headlines. In other news, immigration officers had no qualms to put entry stamps into passports they knew to be forged.

 

That's the police farce (sic) you expect to lawfully implement immigration policy. You make me laugh, but you also make me cringe.

 

Within this very context, arranging for a kickback from the detention fee would be quite clever, because the victim doesn't pay them directly. There have been isolated reports of immigration officers asking for money for passage, but much as they'd love to offer that on a larger scale, it would soon make the news.

[theoldgit]

2 minutes ago, JAG said:

An Immigration Officer's prerogative to refuse entry to visa holders is by no means confined to Thailand, it exists in many/most countries, including the UK and USA.

I think you need to elaborate on that a bit, certainly in the UK the Border Force Officer on the desk cannot refuse without referring their concerns to a Higher Officer, old speak Chief Immigration Officer, it's they who will make the final decision maybe even allowing temporary admission. If the passenger has Entry Clearance then refusal would normally only be considered if they believe that there has been a material change in circumstances since the visa was issued or they believe the visa was fraudulenty obtained.
I'm not up to speed on the US procedures but I think they use a secondry examination system.
You are of course correct when you say that a visa doesn't guarantee admission.    

[sweatalot]

10 hours ago, Essecola said:

Where do I go? It is not Cambodia, Vietnam, or Philippines. So where then? Can I have a refund for my wasted money and young years here?

You are very bitter - which does not help you and makes your life even more miserable. I wished you will be in a better state of mind soon. What happened to you? Is it that you stayed many years legally by being able to fulfill the money requierements  and now the baht is up and so are the new requirements for another visa? That would really suck and I can understand your disapointment - but again sticking to negative feelings does not help your situation - just the opposite. I wish you best of luck and happiness.

 

And about the OP: he just should apply for a non O visa, which he should have done in the past. He was just found as using a tourist visa while not being a tourist

[Dnyy]

29 minutes ago, puukao said:

Why would you retire, live, etc.... in a place where you can be kicked out for almost no reason???  is this life security?  how is this fun for anyone?

 

what if your friends get kicked out?  follow the rules, still kicked out..

 

have fun.  hahahhahahahahhahahhahahahahha  thanks for playing and spending all your money

 

 

That's very true! You have basically no rights and you can't rely on anything here but depend on the mood of a Thai officer (note, I am a Thai so I know their moods ???? )

[Tayaout]

13 minutes ago, sweatalot said:

And about the OP: he just should apply for a non O visa, which he should have done in the past. He was just found as using a tourist visa while not being a tourist

What non O visa is available to me? My wedding is not done yet and my child still unborn. 

[JustAnotherHun]

I don't get it. In which way he did waste his money? To make his daily living here? Is there any country where you can pay your living costs without "wasting" your money?

Wasted his best years in Thailand? Why would one stay here for such a long time if Thailand was such a bad place? Wa he on the run?

 

If he is short of money to proof the required sums because of the sharp decline of all western currencies it's a true mess. I understand the disappointment and depression of people realizing their money is worth less year by year. But it is not Thailand who's to blame for.

[JustAnotherHun]

On topic:

There were suggestions the OP should try to cross the land border. Ain't it quite sure he will face problems when the IOs there see the big Don muang stamp in his passport?

OP when do you plan to give it a try?