Who really suffers

[Lacessit]

29 minutes ago, Thailand Outcast said:

I had been on the 65k method.

 

If the agents are allowed to continue to operate under the new laws, and their prices remain around the same as before, I will use their "services" and remain in Thailand. 

 

That means my 800k stays in my managed fund, in my home country, safe and secure, with a return of around 6% to 8%. 

 

I will have the same visa as a someone with 800k wasted in a Thai bank, 400k of which they have basically lost forever. 

 

You obviously haven't been to Vietnam for quite some time.  Plenty of female company in Vietnam, and no difficulty at all. 

 

At first, when these new visa laws came out, I thought for sure the agents would be shut down.  Now, it appears immigration is actually trying to push people onto them.

 

Like I have said, pay 20k to an agent without any other hoops to jump through, and maintain control over your finances, versus 800k in a Thai bank,  seasoning periods to consider, losing the right to use 400k of your own money, and you get paid 1.5% for the privilege, and, you have to deal with immigration officers.  Which one would you chose?

I'll take your word for it on the subject of female company in Vietnam.

As far as paying 20K to an agent goes, I suspect that is illegal, and the other shoe may drop at any time.

[Thailand Outcast]

Just now, Lacessit said:

I'll take your word for it on the subject of female company in Vietnam.

As far as paying 20K to an agent goes, I suspect that is illegal, and the other shoe may drop at any time.

I actually thought they would disappear, overnight, with these new laws, but they are still operating.

 

I've never used them.  Never needed to.  Still don't need to, but may chose to use them.  

 

Yes, their services are illegal, and have been for decades, the same as prostitution here.  ????

 

Illegal things are allowed to operate for a reason here.  We all know that.

 

One thing is for sure, if they are allowed to operate, anyone staying on the 800k method would be paying more money for the same visa, and losing control of their own money. 

[marcusarelus]

4 minutes ago, Thailand Outcast said:

I actually thought they would disappear, overnight, with these new laws, but they are still operating.

 

I've never used them.  Never needed to.  Still don't need to, but may chose to use them.  

 

Yes, their services are illegal, and have been for decades, the same as prostitution here.  ????

 

Illegal things are allowed to operate for a reason here.  We all know that.

 

One thing is for sure, if they are allowed to operate, anyone staying on the 800k method would be paying more money for the same visa, and losing control of their own money. 

1.  You don't have enough money to retire in Thailand.  2.  No, you don't lose control of your money.  3. If you actually have a pot to p in go home and get a 2 year O-A visa for 2 years and stop this constant complaining about peanuts.  $259 per month to stay (borrow the money at a bank for 10 years).  If you can't afford a couple of hundred a month or a trip home once every 2 years.  You  don't have enough money to retire in Thailand.  Sorry. 

[Krupps]

12 hours ago, lelapin said:

I am not comparing interest rates with home & Thai banks. I have read many posts from people who make non bank investments  at higher rates and will no longer be able to do so. I am stating that they will not be the person in the long run who will be suffering from loss of investment.

I would say many seasoned investors save income tax on their other investments by living in Thailand, not to mention the lower living costs here.

so it's a trade off, you win a few, you lose a few.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Krupps

[Thailand Outcast]

42 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

1.  You don't have enough money to retire in Thailand.  2.  No, you don't lose control of your money.  3. If you actually have a pot to p in go home and get a 2 year O-A visa for 2 years and stop this constant complaining about peanuts.  $259 per month to stay (borrow the money at a bank for 10 years).  If you can't afford a couple of hundred a month or a trip home once every 2 years.  You  don't have enough money to retire in Thailand.  Sorry. 

1.  I have more than enough money to retire in Thailand, and have been retired here for some years. 

 

2.  You can't touch 400k of you own money for as long as you want next year's visa. (stop spreading false information) I'll spend my money the way I want to.  Not the way the Thai government wants me to spend it. 

 

3.  Yes, O-A visa is an option, but an easier option is looking more and more like paying around 20k to an agent, and let them deal with everything.   

 

What's the $259????

 

I have be comfortably living here, legally, for some years, and have never come under the notice of police either here, or in my home country.

 

Just because I see the 800k method as a lousy deal, don't think that I haven't got the money to do it.      

[Thailand Outcast]

49 minutes ago, Krupps said:

I would say many seasoned investors save income tax on their other investments by living in Thailand, not to mention the lower living costs here.

so it's a trade off, you win a few, you lose a few.

Depends on their resident status, for taxation purposes, in the home country. Sometimes, you can be taxed more, if deemed to be a non resident of your home country, when you are product an income.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Thailand Outcast

[gentlemanjackdarby]

14 hours ago, lelapin said:

I am not comparing interest rates with home & Thai banks. I have read many posts from people who make non bank investments  at higher rates and will no longer be able to do so. I am stating that they will not be the person in the long run who will be suffering from loss of investment.

Well, one of the things I notice when folks post about their 'great; investment returns is that they almost never include WHAT their great investment is.

 

There are plenty of investments out there that return better than bank interest rates and they aren't great secrets, so why be coy?

 

And the other thing that all the 'great white investors' fail to mention is that along with a better return comes an increase in risk - that is an immutable law of the investing universe and anyone that says otherwise is a fool;

 

If one is retired and is in such financial straits that they're worried solely about the equivalent of USD 25,000 sitting in a Thailand bank earning nominal interest and going on about how they're losing out because that money can't be put into their 'great investment', they've got a lot more to worry about than lost interest - for starters, their understanding of investing and their tolerance for risk

 

Once one gets beyond a bank interest investment, such as a certificate of deposit or a money market or purchased money fund, the principal is at risk - and that goes for so-called next 'safe' step up from money funds, such as bonds or bond funds if interest rates are likely to rise

 

There is nothing wrong with having one's fixed deposit in something safe earning nominal rates of interest - there's no point at retirement age in chasing yield (with substantial additional risk) for something as important as one's fixed deposit

 

And you're also lucky in that you're planning to leave your fixed deposit to a Thai - the inability to transfer a fixed deposit to a beneficiary (in the U.S.) upon my death as is simple, easy, and commonplace in the U.S. is what keeps me from going down the THB 800K route 

[55Jay]

4 hours ago, Thailand Outcast said:

800k isn't the cost of doing business here.  It's what the Thai's think farang are prepared to pay.  Wait till it goes to 1 million, or 1.2 million. 

 

i didn't pay it then, and I'm not going to pay it now, and I will not be paying it in the future.

 

I was on the 65k method.  When that method stopped for me, I thought for sure all the dodgy agents "loaning" 800k for a few hours would have to cease, but no, this is Thailand, and it is appearing more and more that the new laws were designed to push expats onto dodgy agents, for corrupt financial gain of the immigration department, and their agent partners.

 

So, if the use of these dodgy agents are basically going to be state sanctioned, I will not be leaving. 

 

I'll have the same visa as someone on the 800k / 400k method, but I will be paying about 4000 baht less a month less for it, and I'll be able to use my money as I please, and I will not have to worry about seasoning time periods and paperwork, and dealing with immigration officers.

 

So, if this is the case, tell me why anyone would use the 800k / 400k method?  Why pay more for the same?  Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if they end up giving the 800k / 400k guys a hard time, because immigration officers don't make any money out of them. 

 

if the agents get shut down, it's Vietnam 6 months and Thailand 6 months on tourist visas.   Either way, the Thai government doesn't get to tell me what I will do with my money, just to stay in Thailand 6 months more of a year. 

TLDR.

 

You could have included your recipe for spaghetti and meatballs.

 

Dude, who are you?  You just popped into TVF like a month and a half ago, an instant expert.  No first post, "Hi, my name is Ian, I'm from Cornwall, I don't know nuffin, hope to..... blah blah blah".  Come on mate, who were you in your former TVF life?  Give! 

Edited April 8, 2019 by 55Jay

[gentlemanjackdarby]

10 hours ago, Thailand Outcast said:

A balanced, and well managed, non aggressive fund, will return about 6% to 8%. 

 

Factor those losses into the cost of your visa, by keeping 800k in a Thai bank. 

 

What do you think the Thai banks do with your 800k?

A balanced fund, because it's balanced, is holding some percentage of the asset mix in bonds and some percentage in equities (among other possibilities), both of which entail the risk of loss of principal, the bonds primarily from a rise in interest rates and the equities from a variety of factors, so it's extremely unlikely that one will get a consistent 6% - 8% return year in and year out; over a time horizon of, say, 10 years it might average that, but there will be good years and bad years.

 

And all those rosy returns that mutual funds and the press like to talk about require the good luck of good timing - it's not very likely that someone jumping into equities today will see anything like the stellar returns of the last ten years in the next ten tears; more likely it will be longer and there will be a few 'fire sales' (crashes) of equities along the way and it takes a strong stomach to buy when stocks are on sale

 

The key to surviving the bad years is to be holding a couple of years of living expenses in cash and cash equivalents so that one doesn't have to touch one's principal during the bad years

 

And the THB 800K held in a fixed deposit in Thailand can't, by any stretch of the imagination and contrary to what a somewhat popular Thailand Youtuber recently said, be called an investment; at best, the low interest rate one earns while the money is on deposit can be thought of as the cost of doing business.

 

As the great American humorist Will Rogers is said to have once said: 'I'm not so much concerned with the return ON my as the return OF my money' and THAT should be a concern for anyone making the fixed deposit, if he has heirs outside Thailand

[mlkik]

11 hours ago, steven100 said:

I totally agree it's a bad deal .... unfortunately it won't ever get easier ..... probably only harder.

I do not understand how people think that it is a bad deal. All that is needed to relocate and retire in Thailand is 800 000 baht in a Thai bank account.

Thai people have to me much tougher requirements even to get a visa for a short holliday.

Why are people so arrogant that they think they are entitled to get something for nothing ? 

Edited April 9, 2019 by mlkik

[jesimps]

22 hours ago, NancyL said:

I know several elderly expats who, as they got to be 80 - 85+ in age, decided to simplify their financial life and bring all their money into Thailand to make it easier for their Thai partner/spouse to access it upon their passing.  And yes, it did simplify matters when they passed compared with men who had complex financial portfolios overseas, trying to milk out the last $1 in complex investments where the legal fees and time needed to access the money were staggering upon their passing, even with properly written Final Wills.

On the other side of the coin, you have people like me who have a reasonable sum of money already invested in Thailand in property, vehicles, emergency fund to have me burned etc. I've no wish to add to the money I already have in the wife's emergency fund here, she's already more than well provided for, as she gets half my UK works pension too on my death. I would though like to have some capital in my UK bank to leave to my kids over there. The more I have here, the less they're going to get when I pop off. For this reason I'm changing from the retirement monthly income method to the marriage visa using monthly income. There are other reasons to dislike the money in the bank method than not being able to afford it.

[ICELANDMAN]

15 hours ago, Thailand Outcast said:

A balanced, and well managed, non aggressive fund, will return about 6% to 8%. 

 

Factor those losses into the cost of your visa, by keeping 800k in a Thai bank. 

 

What do you think the Thai banks do with your 800k?

Really now ?  When many fund lost ?

May by you not realised the Thai government ask money to foreigners for living in smile country ?

[jacko45k]

14 hours ago, Snow Leopard said:

My rethink is to do O-A every two years or not? Vs 800K.  It actually has other advantages down the road having a base in the UK for me. 

It is an option. But the 125,000 baht flight, living with my sister for a spell and trying to get rid of the extra weight courtesy of Greggs and Wetherspoons are negative factors. 

[ubonjoe]

A post containing a quoted post taken out context and the resultant replies to it have been removed.

[Thaifly88]

of course you can spend it - that;s what it's for - you just need to top it up back to 800k when applying for extension subject to the before and after time periods 

[Boon Mee]

On 4/8/2019 at 9:06 AM, NancyL said:

I know several elderly expats who, as they got to be 80 - 85+ in age, decided to simplify their financial life and bring all their money into Thailand to make it easier for their Thai partner/spouse to access it upon their passing.  And yes, it did simplify matters when they passed compared with men who had complex financial portfolios overseas, trying to milk out the last $1 in complex investments where the legal fees and time needed to access the money were staggering upon their passing, even with properly written Final Wills.

That is definitely the way to go and when my time is near, the missus will haul my sorry old carcus into the bank so I can clean out the 800k avoiding lawyers and such. 

[bkkcanuck8]

On 4/8/2019 at 8:42 AM, lelapin said:

I am not comparing interest rates with home & Thai banks. I have read many posts from people who make non bank investments  at higher rates and will no longer be able to do so. I am stating that they will not be the person in the long run who will be suffering from loss of investment.

 

So, retirees have 100% of their money in higher earning equities - with no cash and no fixed income in the balance.  A lot of financial planners would tell you you are rolling the dice that the markets will not have a major hickup and take time to recover (in the short term).  They usually recommend a more balanced portfolio which transitions more heavily towards fixed income investments the older you get as a retiree.  Having to wait a decade for your portfolio to fully recover on a market correction and bear market is always a risk.  Consider the 800K baht ( about 27000USD) to be the T-Bill / Certificate of Deposit portion of your larger fund... and adjust the rest of the portfolio accordingly.

Edited April 9, 2019 by bkkcanuck8

[StevieAus]

20 hours ago, Lacessit said:

A good way to lose in the long term.

Wherever you are, banks pay 1-2% interest. They then lend it out at 6-7%.

Let's say you have funds on deposit in Australia, current interest rate 1.5%. As income, it is then taxed say at 30%. Your real rate of return is then 1% pa.

At an annual inflation rate of 3%, your capital is being chewed up at a rate of 2% per year.

In Thailand, we are forced to keep 800,000 baht on deposit. It is what it is.

IMHO anyone who keeps more than living expenses on deposit with a bank is financially illiterate.

Spot on

“It is what it is” is exactly the situation the rules are the rules here,

If you don’t want to comply you are free to leave and live elsewhere.

I don’t find the requirements to live here onerous reporting or anything else.

If you were a 50+ Thai with 800,000 baht in your wallet try flying to Australia, the UK or many other Western countries and asking to live there indefinitely.

I don’t fancy your chances.

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, mlkik said:

I do not understand how people think that it is a bad deal. All that is needed to relocate and retire in Thailand is 800 000 baht in a Thai bank account.

Compared to much better offers from other countries - nearby and world-wide.  That's the issue at-hand.

 

1 hour ago, mlkik said:

Thai people have to me much tougher requirements even to get a visa for a short holliday.

To where?  Last I checked, they can enter South Korea on easy terms - not to mention all the neighboring countries.  

Many Western countries have an ongoing problem with people entering as tourists to take jobs illegally, hence the hoops to get tourist visas to visit them.

 

This is something Thailand only has to worry about with visitors from nations with lower-wages than Thailand.  Yet, ironically, they make it easy for visitors from the nations where most illegal workers in Thailand originate - Laos, Cambodia, and Myanmar - to enter quite easily, while giving a hard-time to Westerners coming to spend their own money.

 

1 hour ago, mlkik said:

Why are people so arrogant that they think they are entitled to get something for nothing ? 

It is Thailand that gets "something for nothing," when we spend our foreign-sourced capital into their country.  Well, almost nothing - they need to be polite - or at least civil - in their official dealings with us, and not invent imaginary-reasons to make problems for us, as we literally spend multiple Thai careers (per-each of us) into existence.

[fred110]

If you gf gets less thats your fault. Put more than 800000 in the bank.

[JackThompson]

The wives/gfs who lose out Big Time, are the cases where the foreigner refuses to go the "agent" route, and has to leave Thailand.  There is still the Non-O-ME Visa option - available at nearby consulates, so no need to fly 1/2 way around the world to get it.  One has to be willing to put up with "border runs," though.

 

16 hours ago, 55Jay said:

Reckon it would cost me about that much more for the privilege of living in Kalifornia - 3 layers of taxes apart from Federal/FICA, and the various insurances deemed necessary to protect yourself from financial ruin.  400k ain't shit.

Yes, but we aren't comparing to living in the USA, or Saudi Arabia, or countries of a similar bent. 

 

There are many welcoming destinations with a much better standard-of-living per-dollar spent on offer.  Those are the ones Thailand is in competition with - but they either don't recognize this, or don't care.  Many officials seem to want most of us gone, regardless of the harm done to their own citizens as a result.

 

13 hours ago, steven100 said:

I don't think Thailand or Vietnam wants someone of your attitude in their country to be honest.

On the contrary - at many Thai immigration offices (which serve the largest expat numbers), they Much Prefer those who pay them off via agents. 

At best, they "tolerate" honest in-person applications by qualified applicants - but often make it overtly-clear they are very unhappy about doing this - sending people on wild-goose chases for various, ever-changing "undocumented requirements" and such. 

 

The "new rules" for bank-money, and loss of embassy-letters, are just the latest punishment which is only meted out to honest-applicants.

[murraynz]

how pitiful--worrying about how much inheritance that you will leave thai girlfriend..

the income earned from interest on 800,000 @ 1.5% max - 15% taxes..is very mminimal...like any of these type of 'investments', its eroded by inflation, anyhow..

even to a thai- 800,000thb is hardly  a large inheritance---they will blow it within 6mths...

does your thai gf or wife, only stay with you, so that they can get an inheritance ??

surely its better to live a good life --now...

if 800,000thb is all you have --dont cry, you should  have have made more effort in the 45yrs between 20-45...

there is lots for information these days-- about the need to create investments for longer retirement yrs..

with good health, there should be no excuses for having no savings...or passive income..

if you have kids--dont teach them to rely on an inheritance....teach them how to create their own retirement fund...

living healthy is also part of the deal...

there is huge education available, on how to do that..

[murraynz]

14 hours ago, BertM said:

You're welcome. After working 39 years for the same company and making other people very wealthy, I retired at age 59 with a company pension, my gov't pension (when I decide to take it) and my own investments which have done very well. Sounds like you are a little envious and resentful, but wish you well anyway. I earned every bit of my money honestly. Enough said. ????

well said---there are too many deadbeats who cry about how miserable their lives are in retirement at thailand...

i dont feel sorry for them, like you, they should have made some sacrifices and learnt how to invest in stocks or realestate etc etc..

i earn most of my retirement income from real estate, but to purchase that-- i spent many many years working 80++ hrs per week, lots of stress...no booze or smokes...or gambling...

its not 'rocket science' or 'luck'---anybody can do it --- just make the effort guys, not excuses..

 

[ivor bigun]

Spot on

“It is what it is” is exactly the situation the rules are the rules here,

If you don’t want to comply you are free to leave and live elsewhere.

I don’t find the requirements to live here onerous reporting or anything else.

If you were a 50+ Thai with 800,000 baht in your wallet try flying to Australia, the UK or many other Western countries and asking to live there indefinitely.

I don’t fancy your chances.

I really love people like you",rules is rules" there is a vast differance between going to a country where you can scrounge off the state if you have no money,and coming to a place like Thailand where if you have no money you starve. Dont you understand ,its not having to put money in a thai bank we care about,its not being able to spend your own money!!!!!

Oh and as a ps, i have the money and no worries ,but i dont look down my nose at those who do not.

 

Sent from my SM-A720F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

 

[JackThompson]

21 minutes ago, murraynz said:

well said---there are too many deadbeats who cry about how miserable their lives are in retirement at thailand...

i dont feel sorry for them, like you, they should have made some sacrifices and learnt how to invest in stocks or realestate etc etc..

Or not gotten sick, or not had their real-estate values crash (when the banksters made that happen to claw-back the commoner's bit of accumulated wealth), or the bad ex-wife who ripped them off, or, their career was outsourced and savings were lost starting-over from scratch, or ... which does not mean they are "deadbeats."

 

21 minutes ago, murraynz said:

i earn most of my retirement income from real estate, but to purchase that-- i spent many many years working 80++ hrs per week, lots of stress...no booze or smokes...or gambling...

its not 'rocket science' or 'luck'---anybody can do it --- just make the effort guys, not excuses..

Many work hard and save every bit possible.  Thinking all the others who did the same, but didn't end up on top, must have been lazy, is a mistake (and other things). 

[murraynz]

13 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Or not gotten sick, or not had their real-estate values crash (when the banksters made that happen to claw-back the commoner's bit of accumulated wealth), or the bad ex-wife who ripped them off, or, their career was outsourced and savings were lost starting-over from scratch, or ... which does not mean they are "deadbeats."

 

Many work hard and save every bit possible.  Thinking all the others who did the same, but didn't end up on top, must have been lazy, is a mistake (and other things). 

excuses, excuses, excuses--many of us have had these problems also--learn from it and move on...

[saminoz]

18 hours ago, Thailand Outcast said:

I agree. 

 

That's why the 800k / 400k untouched is such a lousy deal.

 

Now, if the "visa agents" are allowed to keep operating, despite the new laws, "Who really suffers" with be those using the 800k / 400k method, who will be roughly paying 4000 baht more, for the same product. (visa)

 

Not to mention, they basically can not use 400k of their own money, forever.

 

Then, there is the stress of seasoning, paperwork, bank letters, fronting immigration etc etc. 

 

As you rightly point out, the 800k method runs at a financial loss for the expat, and sure does make for an expensive visa.  

 

 

It's a frikkin joke.

I, like many here, have bought property and have a pension salted away abroad.

I know that the properties are in my wife's name, no issue with that at all (and don't bother with the "your wife will take it all crap, I don't need you foisting your insecurities on me!), but there is clear evidence of me having transferred money here to buy these properties and the subsequent payments for the related purchases.

It is simply laziness, a lack of intelligence or xenophobia (maybe all three) to not be able or willing to take any of that into account as part of your financial wellbeing and commitment to living in this country!

I get an annual statement as to the value of my pension fund, properly audited and accompanied by the results of the investments out of that fund. Why on earth can't that be used?  All the proceeds of my pension and my continuing employment are basically spent mostly in Thailand supporting my family and "enjoying" the privilege of being a retiree here (although I am currently working out of country, as you do when you get a chance to).

These idiots are just so small minded, lazy and plain frikkin dumb.

Edited April 9, 2019 by saminoz

[SenorJorge]

For these people affected, I wonder if it would be better for them financially to switch over to the 1-Year Extension of Stay Based on Marriage?  Then they will just need an income affidavit or show a thai bank depositing monthly 40,000k baht amount.

 

I don't know if this is even an option.  This is what I am doing because I am under 50.  Just an idea.

[marcusarelus]

3 minutes ago, SenorJorge said:

For these people affected, I wonder if it would be better for them financially to switch over to the 1-Year Extension of Stay Based on Marriage?  Then they will just need an income affidavit or show a thai bank depositing monthly 40,000k baht amount.

 

I don't know if this is even an option.  This is what I am doing because I am under 50.  Just an idea.

I don't know if accurate but immigration people talking among themselves that marriage will go to 800k

[oldrunner]

As a retired Air Force Captain, my monthly retirement is adequate to meet the monthly income rule.