Do you believe in God and why

[ThaiBunny]

1 minute ago, CMNightRider said:

Please let us know how that works out for you ????

I'll be dripping in the Blood of the Lamb - a bit like The Silence of the Lambs I suppose

[CMNightRider]

1 hour ago, ThaiBunny said:

So you believe that God needs a blood sacrifice do you? Blood of the Lamb and all that carry on

When Jesus died on the cross there was no need for a blood sacrifice anymore.  If you were to read the Bible yourself, you would already know that. It's up to you ????   

[yodsak]

[ThaiBunny]

20 minutes ago, CMNightRider said:

When Jesus died on the cross there was no need for a blood sacrifice anymore.  If you were to read the Bible yourself, you would already know that. It's up to you ????   

The key phrase is "any more". So God (who "created all the lights in the heavens. He never changes or casts a shifting shadow" ie. he never changes) once demanded blood sacrifices but has now changed his mind?

[ThaiBunny]

7 minutes ago, yodsak said:

I knew a number of Catholics (seminarians I might add) who jokingly referred to the kitsch statues of the Bleeding Heart of Jesus as "Look at my heart transplant"

[Skeptic7]

The monotheistic religions...certainly The Big Three...include in their fundamental teachings that they are exceptional, chosen and special. The only right possibility and every other is wrong. Even different sects of the same! Some of the not so nice tenants of those big three are bigotry, discrimination, hate, misogyny, fear, homophobia, eternal damnation and even slavery (tho human decency has almost done away with that)...as well as other unappealing and offensive doctrine.

 

With the exception of 1 or maybe a few...what most everyone here is referring to is not a god, religion or a faith, but rather humanism and humanistic values. To which most atheists prescribe and welcome. No deities necessary. 

 

Humanism:

an outlook or system of thought attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters. Humanist beliefs stress the potential value and goodness of human beings, emphasize common human needs, and seek solely rational ways of solving human problems.

Edited May 23, 2019 by Skeptic7

[Skeptic7]

On 5/22/2019 at 2:21 PM, CMNightRider said:

Bible translations were made directly from original Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic source texts based on thousands of ancient manuscripts.  The accuracy of today’s Old Testament was confirmed in 1947 when archaeologists found “The Dead Sea Scrolls” along today's West Bank in Israel.

 

"The Dead Sea Scrolls" contained Old Testament scripture dating 1,000 years older than any manuscripts we had. When comparing the manuscripts at hand with these, from 1,000 years earlier, we find agreement 99.5% of the time. And the .5% differences are minor spelling variances and sentence structure that doesn't change the meaning of the sentence.

 

The Bible says that God formed the earth to be inhabited, with us in mind from the start. He gave people his breath of life and a brief stay upon the earth with the full purpose that we would seek him and find him. If we do not come to know him, we have missed the entire purpose for our existence. Who knows better than God the reason for our being?

Even if the Dead Sea Scrolls were 100% accurate in matching what's in the OT, the only thing proven is that the stories match...NOT that the stories are true or really happened. No proof whatsoever. 

 

Everyone agrees that people don't live to be many hundreds of years old. Donkeys and snakes don't talk. A man can't survive 3 days inside a "great fish", or was it a whale? No matter...still impossible. Nor that the whole Earth mass murder (by a failure of a creator) global flood happened. And beyond ridiculous for the Noah's Ark fable to be even mentioned, among adults. 

[yodsak]

[ThaiBunny]

16 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

Nor that the whole Earth mass murder (by a failure of a creator) global flood happened.

The view among ancient historians is that the "global" flood almost certainly happened except that it was more likely confined to the region around what's known these days as the Black Sea (or should we be more politically correct and call it the "Coloured Sea"?). Remembering that the Old Testament, while purporting to be a history of the entire world, is actually a regionally defined set of writings, it's likely that it would include references to such an event

Edited May 24, 2019 by ThaiBunny

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎5‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 8:32 PM, xtrnuno41 said:

Concluding then, on how the world is running for thousands of years, god is a sadist.

To the story in the bible, it shows it is a chest game between him and an fallen angel, the devil. IF he cant win then wipes the board (did once) and start over, as the story goes with Noah. I cant give it any other name, its a game and he is a sadist.

Seems he likes the game now running as it is.

Of course a believer tells , we have our own free mind to do what ever we want.god gave us free will.

WIth all free wills running, we see domination and cruelty all over the world for thousands of years and as with more people on earth, we see lots of Napoleons, hitlers or whatever and thats ok with god.

OUr so called leaders are with god, so also sadistic. They swear god almighty to help them. SO suppression and domination is gods will.

We had the crusaders and with the believe, help, support in/of god, they were the power and slashed the infidelities in Israel to regain the holy land. Yha right, slashing people who had other religion with also a god. 

I will not mention any more situations in which millions of people were killed in name of god? No , personal gain of leaders, who are with god.

In the name of god, we conquered America and killed its people, we had slaves from Africa, Asia. Robbed everything they had and left them out to die.

Oh no, of course it was our own free will !! But every time , they are screaming : In the name of god !

The scrolls are stories from the past, maybe a fiction writer. The writers might think , thats nice material for later to make movies. We created religions by that and movies. 

There are  lot of scrolls not implemented in the bible, those are secret. Probably would disturb god religions. The bible is just a story from one particular species, the jews.

However they have their own bible and jesus is not the son of god. 

We humans get clever more and more, but we will never evolve to something else as thinking me me and me. And otherwise i kill you, in the name of ....god. 

You are correct to a point. IMO "God" does not intervene in the lives of men. Everything men do "in the name of God" is of their own creation. So, while "God" is the excuse, they are NOT doing what "God" wants.

 

However, if the way to heaven is as detailed in the Bible, I doubt any of us are going there.

[thaibeachlovers]

19 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

The monotheistic religions...certainly The Big Three...include in their fundamental teachings that they are exceptional, chosen and special. The only right possibility and every other is wrong. Even different sects of the same! Some of the not so nice tenants of those big three are bigotry, discrimination, hate, misogyny, fear, homophobia, eternal damnation and even slavery (tho human decency has almost done away with that)...as well as other unappealing and offensive doctrine.

 

With the exception of 1 or maybe a few...what most everyone here is referring to is not a god, religion or a faith, but rather humanism and humanistic values. To which most atheists prescribe and welcome. No deities necessary. 

 

Humanism:

an outlook or system of thought attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters. Humanist beliefs stress the potential value and goodness of human beings, emphasize common human needs, and seek solely rational ways of solving human problems.

Your arguments seem confined to "religion", which I disregard, as an invention of men in funny hats.

My arguments are confined to faith and spirituality.

[Skeptic7]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Your arguments seem confined to "religion", which I disregard, as an invention of men in funny hats.

My arguments are confined to faith and spirituality.

My arguments are against religious dogmas/doctrines and all supernatural BS, which includes what you refer to as "spirituality" (which I disregard)...and are confined to reality. 

[Sunmaster]

There's nothing "super-natural" as in "above" or "outside" nature about spirituality, just "outside-understanding". Spirituality permeates everything and everybody, it can be ignored or denied but it can't be taken out of the equation.
Your definition of reality is frighteningly narrow and restrictive, but I know that some people need certainties and control in their lives. It makes life easier to navigate...categorize the world in easy to understand sections and sub-sections, black & white, good & bad. 

Anything that doesn't conform to those reassuring certainties is seen as threatening. Those parts of life that are messy, without apparent structure and chaotic, those parts that can't be put in those neat little categories, have to be swept under the mighty carpet of science and materialism (not financial materialism).
But it's all good, I get it, life is interesting because there are all sorts of people. 
 

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, Skeptic7 said:

My arguments are against religious dogmas/doctrines and all supernatural BS, which includes what you refer to as "spirituality" (which I disregard)...and are confined to reality. 

You do realise that your "reality" is composed of electrons in formation, don't you? Everything in the universe is just electricity at the core. So why can't you accept that "reality" can be anything that can be formed by electricity/ electrons etc?

NONE of us knows everything about the life the universe and everything. There's plenty of room in "reality" for spirituality to exist in a form that you can not understand, see or touch.

 

You are welcome to believe or disbelieve anything, and I'm not trying to convert you, but you should be able to accept that there is more to the universe than what you think is reality.

[ThaiBunny]

2 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

My arguments are against religious dogmas/doctrines and all supernatural BS, which includes what you refer to as "spirituality" (which I disregard)...and are confined to reality. 

The more we understand the modern world through science - quantum theory, for example, or the notion of "self" - the more profound the Eastern religions that question the whole nature of reality seem to be.  I dispute that there's any necessary overlap between belief in the supernatural and spirituality - I doubt that a Venn diagram of the two would make a perfect circle

[Skeptic7]

Many throwing around vague usage of the word "spirituality", yet no one providing any explanation or meaning. Define it meaningfully and please feel free enlighten us with your best, convincing examples. 

 

[Sunmaster]

Wow, so easy to use google...

 

spir·it·u·al·i·ty

/ˌspiriCHo͞oˈalədē/

noun

 

1. the quality of being concerned with the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things.

    

Spirituality is a broad concept with room for many perspectives. In general, it includes a sense of connection to something bigger than ourselves, and it typically involves a search for meaning in life. As such, it is a universal human experience—something that touches us all.

 

Is spirituality the same as religion?

Many people think that spirituality and religion are the same thing, and so they bring their beliefs and prejudices about religion to discussions about spirituality. Though all religions emphasise spiritualism as being part of faith, you can be 'spiritual' without being religious or a member of an organised religion.

 

 

And that's only half of the first page...

 

 

[Sunmaster]

As for examples...I think I shared more than enough about my own personal experiences in this thread, but of course, they're not quantifiable and won't be convincing for you in any way, or they would have already.

The only thing I'd like to add: it's not other people's experiences that will change your mind, it's your own experience.

Too vague?

[Skeptic7]

2 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

As for examples...I think I shared more than enough about my own personal experiences in this thread, but of course, they're not quantifiable and won't be convincing for you in any way, or they would have already.

The only thing I'd like to add: it's not other people's experiences that will change your mind, it's your own experience.

Too vague?

If unclear and unconvincing qualify as too vague, then the answer is yes. 

 

I was taught as a youngster that a definition should not contain the word itself. I still think that is a excellent rule. Of course I've looked up many definitions of this word long before today and still no clue what it means or to what it relates, (even after your attempt)...other than mystical woo-talk. The definition you so graciously Googled above and your answer clarified nothing. 

 

A vague, immaterial, subjective concept defined with more vague, immaterial unknowns is not adequate.

 

But hey...whatever. For me, humanism does the trick...is clear and concise...without any need for the inexplicable sprinkled on. But that's just me...

 

[ivor bigun]

Gosh i see my thread is still running,,i read as many posts as i can ,but as i dont believe,its enlightening to see that so many people do , but as there are so many different versions its a bit like saying " my Gods bigger than your God" i dont think any God will eventually be the"one true God"


Sent from my SM-A720F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Elad]

7 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You do realise that your "reality" is composed of electrons in formation, don't you? Everything in the universe is just electricity at the core. So why can't you accept that "reality" can be anything that can be formed by electricity/ electrons etc?

When you say electrons do you mean 'atoms'? Electrons do carry a negative charge but they have very little mass compared to the nucleus of the atom which is composed of protons and neutrons, The nucleus makes up most of the mass in matter, whereas electrons orbit the nucleus and if there are equal numbers of protons and electrons then the atom is becomes neutral.

 

Did you know that each atom is 99.99% empty space, so we are merely just walking lumps of mostly empty space.  

[sweatalot]

12 minutes ago, Elad said:

When you say electrons do you mean 'atoms'? Electrons do carry a negative charge but they have very little mass compared to the nucleus of the atom which is composed of protons and neutrons, The nucleus makes up most of the mass in matter, whereas electrons orbit the nucleus and if there are equal numbers of protons and electrons then the atom is becomes neutral.

 

Did you know that each atom is 99.99% empty space, so we are merely just walking lumps of mostly empty space.  

yes. that's physics and it is true  -  on the other hand it is only  part of the illusion

[thaibeachlovers]

16 hours ago, Elad said:

When you say electrons do you mean 'atoms'? Electrons do carry a negative charge but they have very little mass compared to the nucleus of the atom which is composed of protons and neutrons, The nucleus makes up most of the mass in matter, whereas electrons orbit the nucleus and if there are equal numbers of protons and electrons then the atom is becomes neutral.

 

Did you know that each atom is 99.99% empty space, so we are merely just walking lumps of mostly empty space.  

Thanks. My knowledge of the smallest particles is from school too many years ago. Electrons, neutrons, nucleus, whatever, we and everything are just them arranged in a certain way.

[ivor bigun]

When you say electrons do you mean 'atoms'? Electrons do carry a negative charge but they have very little mass compared to the nucleus of the atom which is composed of protons and neutrons, The nucleus makes up most of the mass in matter, whereas electrons orbit the nucleus and if there are equal numbers of protons and electrons then the atom is becomes neutral.
 
Did you know that each atom is 99.99% empty space, so we are merely just walking lumps of mostly empty space.  

Quite a few post on Thai visa lol

Sent from my SM-A720F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Skeptic7]

4 hours ago, ivor bigun said:

Quite a few post on Thai visa lol

Sent from my SM-A720F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Quite a few on this thread! 

[CMNightRider]

On 5/25/2019 at 9:01 PM, Skeptic7 said:

Quite a few on this thread! 

Just out of curiosity, where do you believe we came from?  While you are contemplating this question, how on earth can you explain how every living animal to the most lowly insect has a purpose in life, not to mention sea life and plant life?

 

Since you think the Bible is full of fairy tales, and don't believe in God or Jesus dying on the cross for our sins, I think it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on this subject.  

[yodsak]

[bkk6060]

no...

[Skeptic7]

3 hours ago, CMNightRider said:

Just out of curiosity, where do you believe we came from?  While you are contemplating this question, how on earth can you explain how every living animal to the most lowly insect has a purpose in life, not to mention sea life and plant life?

 

Since you think the Bible is full of fairy tales, and don't believe in God or Jesus dying on the cross for our sins, I think it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on this subject.  

Sure no problem, but will be a bit LONG. I was not raised with or without religion, so not made to go to church or learn the doctrine. Free to go or not. Attended a few times and thought it nonsense and opted for exploring in the woods and creeks, valley and river. Bugs, birds, spiders and snakes were much more fun and interesting! So here goes...

 

Observations and study of NATURE is the answer in a nutshell. I'm a biology nut...mainly ornithology, but all wildlife, flora and fauna, is fascinating. Bugs as well...and a minor astronomy nut too. I've observed nearly 700 species (well less than 10% of Earth's total) of birds and photographed quite a few. 693 species seen with the addition of Barred Buttonquail yesterday. I've studied nesting and migratory behaviors and habits. Especially neo-tropical migrants of the Americas. When one starts to see and understand how these species have adapted to their unique needs and habitats over TIME, it becomes crystal clear.

 

How a hummingbird is so well adapted to feed and pollinate is a great example. Finches bills (beaks) have been observed changing in The Galapagos Islands, due to changing climate and food supply, in as little as 20 years. 

 

What you see as perfect and orderly creation is nothing of the sort. What remains are the surviving few, which were able to adapt and thrive. Most fail and disappear. It is a fact that approximately 99% of all species that ever existed are now extinct. Think about that astonishing fact! That is anything but perfect. It is almost perfect failure. Also if Supreme Entity, then there would be no need for such specialization and sophistication among species. They could all just thrive regardless of changes. None would fail and disappear forever. Sadly, we human animals are the cause of many preventable past extinctions and some sure to occur soon. 

 

Humans, without question, were not created in present form only a few thousand years ago. This is a fact. Plenty of empirical and indisputable evidence for anyone willing to do some research and maybe visit a museum of natural history. Planet Earth is over 4 billion years old. Even "we" had close bipedal hominid relatives that were killed off...died off...probably both, but regardless of cause, did not survive. Homo sapiens were not chosen or favored, but were just the species that was more adaptable and maybe a bit more creative, cunning, innovative, ruthless(?) and intelligent. 

 

Nature is certainly beautiful and can be peaceful and wonderful, but make no mistake...it's dangerous and deserves great respect and extreme caution. From disease and predators to venomous insects and reptiles. Lightning, floods, earthquakes, tsunamis and disease infested mosquitos and other insects. Just watch NatGeo for a full day and you'll have a lifetime's worth of violence, killing, starvation and all the trials and challenges of survival in the wild. 

 

Space is a violent vacuum. Instant death. Collisions, explosions, extreme temperatures in a vast, desolate void unfit for human life...but maybe some day conquered by human ingenuity, brainpower and resourcefulness.

 

The stars may appear peaceful on a clear autumn night, but just look at the moons and planets out there peppered with impact craters. Even Earth has 128 confirmed and surely that is way low due to erosion over millenia and eons. Mars has about 300,000 impact craters. 

 

I just photographed a Hummingbird Hawk Moth 2 days ago. An amazing, tiny, diurnal moth that mimics hummingbirds so extremely well. I've photographed plenty of hummingbirds and even Sphinx Moths in The States, but this species similarities to hummingbirds was simply fascinating. It does pollinate flowers like hummingbirds, so assuming that is one reason for it evolving such, since hummingbirds are only found in the Americas and Caribbean. Supposedly the moths coloring makes it almost invisible to it's main predators. 

 

Final thought...solving some of the (yet) unknown and unexplained mysteries of our world and the universe by inserting an even bigger unexplained unknown (god) is simply not a good answer which solves nothing and keeps us ignorant and closed to actual knowledge and understanding. That tactic has been used over the ages, but the more we learn and discover new things...every time without fail...the answer turns out NOT to be a god, but rather a natural explanation. 

Edited May 27, 2019 by Skeptic7

[VincentRJ]

1 hour ago, Skeptic7 said:

Sure no problem, but will be a bit LONG. I was not raised with or without religion, so not made to go to church or learn the doctrine. Free to go or not. Attended a few times and thought it nonsense and opted for exploring in the woods and creeks, valley and river. Bugs, birds, spiders and snakes were much more fun and interesting! So here goes...

 

Observations and study of NATURE is the answer in a nutshell. I'm a biology nut...mainly ornithology, but all wildlife, flora and fauna, is fascinating. Bugs as well...and a minor astronomy nut too. I've observed nearly 700 species (well less than 10% of Earth's total) of birds and photographed quite a few. 693 species seen with the addition of Barred Buttonquail yesterday. I've studied nesting and migratory behaviors and habits. Especially neo-tropical migrants of the Americas. When one starts to see and understand how these species have adapted to their unique needs and habitats over TIME, it becomes crystal clear.

 

How a hummingbird is so well adapted to feed and pollinate is a great example. Finches bills (beaks) have been observed changing in The Galapagos Islands, due to changing climate and food supply, in as little as 20 years. 

 

What you see as perfect and orderly creation is nothing of the sort. What remains are the surviving few, which were able to adapt and thrive. Most fail and disappear. It is a fact that approximately 99% of all species that ever existed are now extinct. Think about that astonishing fact! That is anything but perfect. It is almost perfect failure. Also if Supreme Entity, then there would be no need for such specialization and sophistication among species. They could all just thrive regardless of changes. None would fail and disappear forever. Sadly, we human animals are the cause of many preventable past extinctions and some sure to occur soon. 

 

Humans, without question, were not created in present form only a few thousand years ago. This is a fact. Plenty of empirical and indisputable evidence for anyone willing to do some research and maybe visit a museum of natural history. Planet Earth is over 4 billion years old. Even "we" had close bipedal hominid relatives that were killed off...died off...probably both, but regardless of cause, did not survive. Homo sapiens were not chosen or favored, but were just the species that was more adaptable and maybe a bit more creative, cunning, innovative, ruthless(?) and intelligent. 

 

Nature is certainly beautiful and can be peaceful and wonderful, but make no mistake...it's dangerous and deserves great respect and extreme caution. From disease and predators to venomous insects and reptiles. Lightning, floods, earthquakes, tsunamis and disease infested mosquitos and other insects. Just watch NatGeo for a full day and you'll have a lifetime's worth of violence, killing, starvation and all the trials and challenges of survival in the wild. 

 

Space is a violent vacuum. Instant death. Collisions, explosions, extreme temperatures in a vast, desolate void unfit for human life...but maybe some day conquered by human ingenuity, brainpower and resourcefulness.

 

The stars may appear peaceful on a clear autumn night, but just look at the moons and planets out there peppered with impact craters. Even Earth has 128 confirmed and surely that is way low due to erosion over millenia and eons. Mars has about 300,000 impact craters. 

 

I just photographed a Hummingbird Hawk Moth 2 days ago. An amazing, tiny, diurnal moth that mimics hummingbirds so extremely well. I've photographed plenty of hummingbirds and even Sphinx Moths in The States, but this species similarities to hummingbirds was simply fascinating. It does pollinate flowers like hummingbirds, so assuming that is one reason for it evolving such, since hummingbirds are only found in the Americas and Caribbean. Supposedly the moths coloring makes it almost invisible to it's main predators. 

 

Final thought...solving some of the (yet) unknown and unexplained mysteries of our world and the universe by inserting an even bigger unexplained unknown (god) is simply not a good answer which solves nothing and keeps us ignorant and closed to actual knowledge and understanding. That tactic has been used over the ages, but the more we learn and discover new things...every time without fail...the answer turns out NOT to be a god, but rather a natural explanation. 

Good post. However there are still some major puzzles. Despite the amazing advances in the biological sciences, such as the cracking of the human genome, modifying the genetic make-up of food crops and so on, scientists have not been able to create any new forms of life, however basic and primitive, from a soup of inanimate chemicals in the laboratory.

 

Perhaps they will, eventually. If they ever succeed, that would be tremendous news, but devastating for believers in a Creator God. Sometimes I wonder if some scientists actually have created a new form of life in the laboratory, but have kept it secret because of the potential ethical and political consequences.

 

The other issue that is puzzling is the Big Bang explanation for the origins of the universe. It seems incomprehensible to me, that this vast universe consisting of an estimated 100 billion galaxies, with each galaxy containing possibly several hundred billion solar systems, could have originated from a tiny, single, extremely dense point which suddenly exploded. Can you shed some light on this?