sirineou Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 6 minutes ago, mauGR1 said: Don't you think opinion may differ on what exists and what doesn't ? What exists is not a matter of opinion or conjecture , Things exist independent of what we think and are only subject to empirical evidence. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvaviator Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 On 9/14/2019 at 2:05 PM, sirineou said: Bad people do bad things and good people do good things, It takes religion to make good people do bad things. and politicians ... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauGR1 Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 2 minutes ago, sirineou said: What exists is not a matter of opinion or conjecture , Things exist independent of what we think and are only subject to empirical evidence. Well, if you refer to apples and trees, i may agree with you, yet, if we talk about spiritual realities, then opinions may differ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirineou Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 2 minutes ago, rvaviator said: and politicians ... Like trump who "never goes anywhere without his bible"? was he using it to spank the porn star while his wife was at home pregnant with his child? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metempsychotic Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Sunmaster said: sci·ence /ˈsīəns/ noun the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment. ------------------- The same principles are applied to the non-physical world. Is that really so difficult to understand? Sorry there tiger it does not work that way. The definition you provided here specifically excludes the non-physical or spiritual worlds. If you wish to cite text as authorative, you dont simply get to add your own bits on at the end and claim them as definitive. Simply repeating an argument ad nauseam does not make it so. Why do you consistently keep placing the onus on others to substantiate your claims? I do question why someone would persist in such a discussion rather then simply moving along secure in their belief in their own path, but that is up to you, I will certainly not continue in this circular discussion. Edited January 23, 2020 by metempsychotic 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirineou Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 Just now, mauGR1 said: Well, if you refer to apples and trees, i may agree with you, yet, if we talk about spiritual realities, then opinions may differ. you keep referring to spiritual as "realities" where we tell you that spiritual is not real but man made. I don't disagree that a spiritual condition exists, but it is a human construct, remove humans from the equation and you remove spirituality. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirineou Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 2 minutes ago, metempsychotic said: Simply repeating an argument ad nauseam does not make it so. Why do you consitenly keeping placing the onus on others to substantiate your claims? I make no claims your side does, and the onus is on you to substantiate it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauGR1 Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 1 minute ago, sirineou said: you keep referring to spiritual as "realities" where we tell you that spiritual is not real but man made. I don't disagree that a spiritual condition exists, but it is a human construct, remove humans from the equation and you remove spirituality. Well, i beg to differ. I can understand your way of thinking, but you regard as real only what is perceivable by the physical senses. Quite an assumption to say that if you don't see something, it doesn't exist. If you could remove the Spirit, you would have no human beings, because there would be no consciousness. All the matter you can see and touch is condensed thought. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metempsychotic Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 1 minute ago, sirineou said: I make no claims your side does, and the onus is on you to substantiate it. My side? It seems you can type, but can you read? Personally I havent taken the time to read your remarks in depth and responded only to a comment by sunblaster. You sure you have taken the time to respond to the right person? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirineou Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 1 minute ago, mauGR1 said: Well, i beg to differ. I can understand your way of thinking, but you regard as real only what is perceivable by the physical senses. Quite an assumption to say that if you don't see something, it doesn't exist. If you could remove the Spirit, you would have no human beings, because there would be no consciousness. All the matter you can see and touch is condensed thought. What other senses are there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirineou Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 5 minutes ago, metempsychotic said: My side? It seems you can type, but can you read? Personally I havent taken the time to read your remarks in depth and responded only to a comment by sunblaster. You sure you have taken the time to respond to the right person? Sorry i did not read your post properly I am having several conversations with multiple posters, my bad 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauGR1 Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 2 minutes ago, sirineou said: What other senses are there? Consciousness, just to name one. Yet, if you dared to remove all your preconcepts about spiritual realities, you would find that senses, intended as ways to perceive reality, are many more than the 5 physical ones. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunmaster Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 21 minutes ago, metempsychotic said: Simply repeating an argument ad nauseam does not make it so. Why do you consistently keep placing the onus on others to substantiate your claims? This goes for both sides. People ask me for proof. If the only way to validate spiritual realities is meditation, then I can't just make up other ways, can I? 21 minutes ago, metempsychotic said: I do question why someone would persist in such a discussion rather then simply moving along secure in their belief in their own path, but that is up to you, I like a good debate. Why are you here instead of moving along? 21 minutes ago, metempsychotic said: I will certainly not continue in this circular discussion. Up to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeptic7 Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Sunmaster said: Science explores the material world and it's great at that. When science bangs it's head against the spiritual realities and comes back with no answers, materialists take that as a validation for their belief system, when in fact it only means that it doesn't have the tools to explore that field. That's the limitation. Just because YOU claim whatever "spiritual realities" are...does not make them real. Same as someone claiming Pastafarian realities or The Force (Luke) reality or Middle Earth (Bilbo) reality. Until they, it...whatever...can be proven to actually exist...they DON'T exist! Except maybe in someone's imagination, which doesn't make the cut. The End. You're welcome. ???? Edited January 23, 2020 by Skeptic7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirineou Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 12 minutes ago, mauGR1 said: Consciousness, just to name one. Yet, if you dared to remove all your preconcepts about spiritual realities, you would find that senses, intended as ways to perceive reality, are many more than the 5 physical ones. Consciousness is not a sense it is the result of sense inputs. There are three definitions of consciousness and none of them contains the metaphysical , "the state of being awake and aware of one's surroundings." "the awareness or perception of something by a person. " " the fact of awareness by the mind of itself and the world." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeptic7 Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 2 hours ago, sirineou said: And i tell you that you can fly. Proof, what proof, go jump of a cliff and you will find out Already used that one, but they still can't/don't/refuse to get it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeptic7 Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 44 minutes ago, rvaviator said: and politicians ... Sort of. Only politicians whom lie and deceive that they are godly and religious. ???? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeptic7 Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 41 minutes ago, mauGR1 said: Well, if you refer to apples and trees, i may agree with you, yet, if we talk about spiritual realities, then opinions may differ. Ya think?!? ???? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeptic7 Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 It's gaining new found strength, like an almost exhausted hurricane that reforms and causes more beautifully designed destruction! Surely Ivor is thrilled! ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeptic7 Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 42 minutes ago, metempsychotic said: Sorry there tiger it does not work that way. The definition you provided here specifically excludes the non-physical or spiritual worlds. If you wish to cite text as authorative, you dont simply get to add your own bits on at the end and claim them as definitive. Simply repeating an argument ad nauseam does not make it so. Why do you consistently keep placing the onus on others to substantiate your claims? I do question why someone would persist in such a discussion rather then simply moving along secure in their belief in their own path, but that is up to you, I will certainly not continue in this circular discussion. Welcome! You're obviously new to this long winded thread of fantasy. I love your post, but only a few of us have the stamina (and fun) to go round and round...over and over...with the deniers and deflectors. You won't be here long, but wish you would. ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirineou Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 6 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said: Ya think?!? ???? Sorry I laughed , I don't mean any disrespect to mauGR1 who seems to be a very nice guy and genuinely interested in the subject , but your response was very funny. Of course opinions will differ, Like the proverbial bodily orifice we all have one. It is when we "come down to brass tacks" that things get dicey 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeptic7 Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 6 minutes ago, sirineou said: Sorry I laughed , I don't mean any disrespect to mauGR1 who seems to be a very nice guy and genuinely interested in the subject , but your response was very funny. Of course opinions will differ, Like the proverbial bodily orifice we all have one. It is when we "come down to brass tacks" that things get dicey You're WAY too kind and generous IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauGR1 Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 21 minutes ago, sirineou said: Consciousness is not a sense it is the result of sense inputs. There are three definitions of consciousness and none of them contains the metaphysical , "the state of being awake and aware of one's surroundings." "the awareness or perception of something by a person. " " the fact of awareness by the mind of itself and the world." If you put limits to consciousness, i have to accept we are speaking 2 different languages. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post sirineou Posted January 23, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 23, 2020 5 minutes ago, mauGR1 said: If you put limits to consciousness, i have to accept we are speaking 2 different languages. Of course I am putting limits to consciousness. Consciousness is limited to perception and perception is limited by our instruments of input, our senses, How else can someone experience something? 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauGR1 Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 1 minute ago, sirineou said: Of course I am putting limits to consciousness. Consciousness is limited to perception and perception is limited by our instruments of input, our senses, How else can someone experience something? Ok, i will repeat myself, but i guess you haven't read the whole thread. Let's have a look at life on this planet, minerals, plants, animals and humans. Many degrees of consciousness, human consciousness differ a lot among the whole bunch. Is it logic to think that, given the countless stars, that human consciousness is at the top ? I think not. So it's logic, imho to think that if there are lower levels of consciousness, there are higher ones. For example, those which can be experienced with meditation. If the space is infinite, so is consciousness. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeptic7 Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 4 hours ago, Sunmaster said: Science may not, but you are. Do you deny it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunmaster Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 10 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said: Do you deny it? Deny what? If one doesn't believe in spirit, no problem with that. If one doesn't believe in spirit AND from the height of his ignorance [as in not knowing] proclaims that spirit doesn't exist, then that is a long way from admitting: I don't know. That's what you've been doing all along. There's this huge part of the human condition that you know nothing about, neither personally through direct experience, nor even intellectually through having read books about it....yet you think you have the authority to declare your opinion the end of all things. Now, I know this comment will put you in yet another trolling frenzy, but for once, take a deep breath, then another, and another one...turn off the internet, go talk to your flowers or take some nice pictures of insects or whatever makes you happy...let it sink in for a while, sleep on it...and tomorrow, when your mind is fresh and relaxed...tell me again how you're fine with just not knowing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauGR1 Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 52 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said: Do you deny it? The time has come that i have to admit that i'm a polytheist. And an animist in the spare time. I am aware that the choice of a Single God was politically motivated for the powers to create the empire. Mission accomplished, now we have a single God (profit). I understand the choice of Monotheism, but i think that polytheism has more poetry and potential for narrative. For all i know, Louis Armstrong or Jimi Hendrix could have been "Gods" of music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeptic7 Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 24 minutes ago, Sunmaster said: Deny what? If one doesn't believe in spirit, no problem with that. If one doesn't believe in spirit AND from the height of his ignorance [as in not knowing] proclaims that spirit doesn't exist, then that is a long way from admitting: I don't know. That's what you've been doing all along. There's this huge part of the human condition that you know nothing about, neither personally through direct experience, nor even intellectually through having read books about it....yet you think you have the authority to declare your opinion the end of all things. Now, I know this comment will put you in yet another trolling frenzy, but for once, take a deep breath, then another, and another one...turn off the internet, go talk to your flowers or take some nice pictures of insects or whatever makes you happy...let it sink in for a while, sleep on it...and tomorrow, when your mind is fresh and relaxed...tell me again how you're fine with just not knowing. I'm fine, relaxed and thrilled with life just as it is every day. No fantasy needed. Live Long and Prosper. ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeptic7 Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 23 minutes ago, mauGR1 said: The time has come that i have to admit that i'm a polytheist. And an animist in the spare time. I am aware that the choice of a Single God was politically motivated for the powers to create the empire. Mission accomplished, now we have a single God (profit). I understand the choice of Monotheism, but i think that polytheism has more poetry and potential for narrative. For all i know, Louis Armstrong or Jimi Hendrix could have been "Gods" of music. This is not any shocking revelation or even news at all to any who pay attention! You've already alluded to as much and even said as much while not using the word. Good for you and your honesty in "comung out". While there is no evidence that any artist is/was anything but naturally talented, can understand you admiring them immensely. I do too. That said...Eddie Van Halen made the extraordinary Hendrix seem mundane, but Eddie is still not supernatural. IMO...that is. ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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