Do you believe in God and why

[Sunmaster]

5 minutes ago, WalkingOrders said:

Yeah, I was confusing this with another verse, but your enire argument here re hinduism comparison with Christ has a source? Not for arguing, but for interest.

The connection between Christ's teachings and Hinduism comes from studying religions and my own understanding. I know that Paramahansa Yogananda wrote some books about this, but I haven't read them yet.
I'm sure others have made this connection as well.

[mauGR1]

18 minutes ago, Tagged said:

Well, it is this english I am not mastering well enough maybe, and mixed up with things I have discussed or read on my path, can make it different. 

 

The same man wrote or said 

 

I am because you are

Alan Watts

 

who simply painted the world with simple and understandable methaphors. 

Ha !

Alan Watts was my "guide" into my first psychedelic experiences.

Always grateful to him.

[mauGR1]

16 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

The connection between Christ's teachings and Hinduism comes from studying religions and my own understanding. I know that Paramahansa Yogananda wrote some books about this, but I haven't read them yet.
I'm sure others have made this connection as well.

Jesus is recognised as a Avatar of Vishnu, and regarded both as a great Rishi (prophet) and a Siddha (mastered the powers of yoga).

[mauGR1]

2 hours ago, ThaiBunny said:

Nothing in my statement remotely implies a belief in the supernatural. You are simply inferring from my post using the jaundiced lens of the "spectacles" you wear (read my earlier post for an explanation)

Where did i imply that you believe in the supernatural, talking about jaundiced lens.. LOL

[sirineou]

3 hours ago, WalkingOrders said:

I agree that there is no scientific proof, but that is NOT the same thing as saying there is no evidence. That is a false claim. You simply find the evidence as insufficient for proof (I assume that is what you mean). I am a Christian, and agree, there is no scientific proof of the existence of God, or of Jesus Christ. I do see evidence, perhaps you would disagree with my evidence, that's ok. You can no more prove my evidence false then you can prove God false, and proving God false is not part of the requirement for proving the mysteries of the way the Universe works, nor its origins. I am not someone who sees science and religion as being in opposition.

A well thought out response >  

I don't know what Evidence you have for me  to disagree with  So far I have not heard any evidence from anyone, I have heard conjecture, but not evidence.

I have no problem with Christianity and it's core of morality. I think I am more Christian than many"Christians" but I think the "Church" has developed an unnecessary for the people narrative but necessary for the power structure to control and subjugate people. I think Jesus "If he ever existed" was a philosopher of the Buddhist tradition, that in an attempt to bring the philosophy to unsophisticated audience, framed it in a narrative they could understand at the time, within the framework of their Hebrew history.  IMO we are no longer unsophisticated and no longer need the Narrative. IMO we can shed the dogma but retain the philosophy. 

  Actually to be intellectually honest,  not all of as are ready, some of as still need the "stick and carrot"     

[Tagged]

12 minutes ago, sirineou said:

A well thought out response >  

I don't know what Evidence you have for me  to disagree with  So far I have not heard any evidence from anyone, I have heard conjecture, but not evidence.

I have no problem with Christianity and it's core of morality. I think I am more Christian than many"Christians" but I think the "Church" has developed an unnecessary for the people narrative but necessary for the power structure to control and subjugate people. I think Jesus "If he ever existed" was a philosopher of the Buddhist tradition, that in an attempt to bring the philosophy to unsophisticated audience, framed it in a narrative they could understand at the time, within the framework of their Hebrew history.  IMO we are no longer unsophisticated and no longer need the Narrative. IMO we can shed the dogma but retain the philosophy. 

  Actually to be intellectually honest,  not all of as are ready, some of as still need the "stick and carrot"     

Well said!

[Tagged]

3 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

Ha !

Alan Watts was my "guide" into my first psychedelic experiences.

Always grateful to him.

You ask me what I was drinking, now Im wondering what kind of psychedelic substance did you use, and does it give some flashbacks sometimes? Or you stil have access? 

 

Hehehe, sorry could not help myself. All the best ????

[mauGR1]

3 minutes ago, Tagged said:

You ask me what I was drinking, now Im wondering what kind of psychedelic substance did you use, and does it give some flashbacks sometimes? Or you stil have access? 

 

Hehehe, sorry could not help myself. All the best ????

I took lysergic acid a few times in my teens, always in a considerate way. Good memories ????

[partington]

7 hours ago, StreetCowboy said:

Which scientists say that there is no God? 
Is that a large proportion of scientists?  How does that compare with traffic wardens? They meet all sorts, and if they say that there is no God, then at least we can conclude that he has no car.

 

[sirineou]

1 hour ago, partington said:

 

read the referenced article carefully, None of them said there is no god, they said they don't believe there is a god.  "disbelief 86.6%) 

You have not adequately defended your claim and we don't believe you.  Same as if i told you that I have a 12 inch penis.

 

[WalkingOrders]

4 hours ago, sirineou said:

A well thought out response >  

I don't know what Evidence you have for me  to disagree with  So far I have not heard any evidence from anyone, I have heard conjecture, but not evidence.

I have no problem with Christianity and it's core of morality. I think I am more Christian than many"Christians" but I think the "Church" has developed an unnecessary for the people narrative but necessary for the power structure to control and subjugate people. I think Jesus "If he ever existed" was a philosopher of the Buddhist tradition, that in an attempt to bring the philosophy to unsophisticated audience, framed it in a narrative they could understand at the time, within the framework of their Hebrew history.  IMO we are no longer unsophisticated and no longer need the Narrative. IMO we can shed the dogma but retain the philosophy. 

  Actually to be intellectually honest,  not all of as are ready, some of as still need the "stick and carrot"     

You should be able to conjecture at any evidence I have, and realize you cant claim that it is false. These aren't new arguments. Your take on "Jesus if he ever existed" is an interesting one. "Not all of us are ready", if this presumes some are farther along some continuum, or path, then others, what path is that? Where does it end? How do you identify who needs a carrot and stick? Is the assumption that non-believers have achieved enlightenment because they read more books? What does that matter to someone who plants and picks rice from birth till death?

[WalkingOrders]

4 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

I took lysergic acid a few times in my teens, always in a considerate way. Good memories ????

"In a considerate way"... are you sure about that? I'm not. Let's see; while surfing naked, in a couple of discos, on a bus, on a plane, hanging in a tree in an apartment complex about 4 hours, during a chat with police on a private boat dock...nah... I am not sure if I can say the same....I tried though. ????

[sirineou]

18 minutes ago, WalkingOrders said:

You should be able to conjecture at any evidence I have, and realize you cant claim that it is false. These aren't new arguments. Your take on "Jesus if he ever existed" is an interesting one. "Not all of us are ready", if this presumes some are farther along some continuum, or path, then others, what path is that? Where does it end? How do you identify who needs a carrot and stick? Is the assumption that non-believers have achieved enlightenment because they read more books? What does that matter to someone who plants and picks rice from birth till death?

Not sure if i understand the first sentence but here it goes, please forgive me if I misunderstood.

"

con·jec·ture

noun

an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.

  ".

so according  to the above definition any conjecture would be based on incomplete evidence.

     As to the Historical Jesus I am sure that you must know there is a debate concerning his existence  , thus "Jesus if he ever existed " I am not taking sides in this debate  thus the "IF"

     I do not presume anything, I am sure you would agree that some people are more socially conscious than others and and can independently govern themselve where others need some convincing. The means of convincing differ from people to people, some are motivated by reward. (carot) others are motivated by fear (stick). 

    Reading books does not make people smarter, only makes them better informed, Being smart is the ability to process that information and put it to good use. 

  

 

Edited January 24, 2020 by sirineou

[mauGR1]

4 minutes ago, WalkingOrders said:

"In a considerate way"... are you sure about that? I'm not. Let's see; while surfing naked, in a couple of discos, on a bus, on a plane, hanging in a tree in an apartment complex about 4 hours, during a chat with police on a private boat dock...nah... I am not sure if I can say the same....I tried though. ????

No, seriously, after realising the potential danger, every occasion was planned with sort of military organisation.

The first rule was to avoid any contact with people, the only time i had (mental) troubles, was because i was thinking my buddy has gone mad.

[Tagged]

19 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

Ha !

Alan Watts was my "guide" into my first psychedelic experiences.

Always grateful to him.

For all who have been seeking spirituality, I have experienced psychedelica have played a great role. Acid, ketamin, mushrooms, and more. Why so? I never tried myself, but I had some experiences on weed, travelling space, and also poems and texts got different meaning, or call it a great sensation of understand what was the purpose. However not something I played a great deal with, just for a few occations. 

 

Walking in nature, and also pushing the limits close to what we are cabable of, make my mind clearer and also gave me the wider perspective I have been seeking all my life. Now I am cruising on that knownledge and came more or less to rest. I still do not have the answers, but Im comfortable not to know, and can live a great life withoug knowing, anythings else, than that life is precious, and worth living as good we can, as long we do. Right here right now, ashes to ashes dust to dust. 

 

Have a good weekend. 

 

 

[mauGR1]

1 hour ago, Tagged said:

Walking in nature, and also pushing the limits close to what we are cabable of, make my mind clearer and also gave me the wider perspective I have been seeking all my life. Now I am cruising on that knownledge and came more or less to rest. I still do not have the answers, but Im comfortable not to know, and can live a great life withoug knowing, anythings else, than that life is precious, and worth living as good we can, as long we do. Right here right now, ashes to ashes dust to dust. 

Been there, done that, sometimes just fasting can give you visions.

Himalayan climbers, in extreme dangerous and unforgiving environment, have been telling about visions of supernatural beings.

The "science" dismiss these visions as "hallucinations" or "chemical and electric" processes, but that's just another opinion.

There must be tons of parallel universes, both outside and inside us, imho.

 

"Being comfortable not to know" is ok with me, but with moderation ????

[Sunmaster]

Psychedelic substances are a huge topic and one that was part of my research, in a practical sense too. ????

Since time immemorial, man has used these substances to enter the spirit world, to seek wisdom and procure healing. All societies have a version of it: Ayahuasca in South America, Peyote and San Pedro cacti and psylocibe mushrooms in Central and North America, Salvia Divinorum, Belladonna and various mushrooms in Europe....I would consider THC as only a mild psychedelic substance, not really comparable with the real consciousness expanding substances.
In the 60s LSD became all the rage, but it was invented already in the 30s by a Swiss scientist called Albert Hoffmann. The anectode of the time he first experimented with LSD in 1938 and then rode his bicycle is quite funny.
Great music and art was created under the influence of LSD.
Nowadays, the substance of choice seems to be DMT (also called the "spirit molecule", a substance that occurs naturally in many plants. It is also noteworthy to mention that it seems our own body can produce DMT.

Many theories suggest that psychedelic substances were the first point of contact between our species and the spiritual realms and that it is thanks to the insights gained during those sessions, that important advances in our evolution were made. 

What is the connection between psychedelic substances and spirituality?

There is a story about Ram Dass (Richard Alpert, starter of the LSD movement in the US along with Timothy Leary) who gave a huge dose of LSD to Maharaji (a famous yogi):

 

In 1967 when I first came to India, I brought with me a supply of LSD, hoping to find someone who might understand more about these substances than we did in the West.

When I had met Maharajji (Neem Karoli Baba), after some days the thought had crossed my mind that he would be a perfect person to ask. The next day after having that thought, I was called to him and he asked me immediately, “Do you have a question?”

Of course, being before him was such a powerful experience that I had completely forgotten the question I had had in my mind the night before. So I looked stupid and said, “No, Maharajji, I have no question.”He appeared irritated and said, “Where is the medicine?”

I was confused but Bhagavan Dass suggested, ” Maybe he means the LSD.” I asked and Maharajji nodded. The bottle of LSD was in the car and I was sent to fetch it. When I returned I emptied the vial of pills into my hand. In addition to the LSD there were a number of other pills for this and that–diarrhea, fever, a sleeping pill, and so forth. He asked about each of these.

He asked if they gave powers. I didn’t understand at the time and thought that by “powers” perhaps he meant physical strength. I said, “No.” Later, of course, I came to understand that the word he had used, “siddhis,” means psychic powers. Then he held out his hand for the LSD. I put one pill on his palm. Each of these pills was about three hundred micrograms of very pure LSD–a solid dose for an adult. He beckoned for more, so I put a second pill in his hand–six hundred micrograms. Again he beckoned and I added yet another, making the total dosage nine hundred micrograms–certainly not a dose for beginners. Then he threw all the pills into his mouth. My reaction was one of shock mixed with fascination of a social scientist eager to see what would happen.

He allowed me to stay for an hour– and nothing happened. Nothing whatsoever.

He just laughed at me.

The whole thing had happened very fast and unexpectedly. When I returned to the United States in 1968 I told many people about this acid feat. But there had remained in me a gnawing doubt that perhaps he had been putting me on and had thrown the pills over his shoulder or palmed them, because I hadn’t actually seen them go into his mouth.

Three years later, when I was back in India, he asked me one day, “Did you give me medicine when you were in India last time?”

“Yes.”

“Did I take it?” he asked. (Ah, there was my doubt made manifest!)

“I think you did.”

“What happened?

“Nothing.”

“Oh! Jao!” and he sent me off for the evening.

The next morning I was called over to the porch in front of his room, where he sat in the mornings on a tucket. He asked, “Have you got any more of that medicine?”

It just so happened that I was carrying a small supply of LSD for “just in case,” and this was obviously it. “Yes.”

“Get it,” he said.

So I did. In the bottle were five pills of three hundred micrograms each. One of the pills was broken. I placed them on my palm and held them out to him. He took the four unbroken pills. Then, one by one, very obviously and very deliberately, he placed each one in his mouth and swallowed it– another unspoken thought of mine now answered.

As soon as he had swallowed the last one, he asked, “Can I take water?”

“Yes.”

“Hot or cold?”

“It doesn’t matter.”

He started yelling for water and drank a cup when it was brought.

Then he asked, “How long will it take to act?”

“Anywhere from twenty minutes to an hour.”

He called for an older man, a long -time devotee who had a watch, and Maharajji held the man’s wrist, often pulling it up to him to peer at the watch.

Then he asked,” Will it make me crazy?”

That seemed so bizarre to me that I could only go along with what seemed to be a gag.

So I said, “Probably.”

And then we waited. After some time he pulled the blanket over his face, and when he came out after a moment his eyes were rolling and his mouth was ajar and he looked totally mad. I got upset. What was happening? Had I misjudged his powers? After all, he was an old man (though how old I had no idea), and I had let him take twelve hundred micrograms. Maybe last time he had thrown them away and then he read my mind and was trying to prove to me he could do it, not realizing how strong the “medicine” really was. Guilt and anxiety poured through me. But when I looked at him again he was perfectly normal and looking at the watch.

At the end of an hour it was obvious nothing had happened. His reactions had been a total put-on. And then he asked, “Have you got anything stronger?” I didn’t. Then he said, “These medicines were used in Kullu Valley long ago. But yogis have lost that knowledge. They were used with fasting. Nobody knows now. To take them with no effect, your mind must be firmly fixed on God. Others would be afraid to take. Many saints would not take this.” And he left it at that.

When I asked him if I should take LSD again, he said, “It should not be taken in a hot climate. If you are in a place that is cool and peaceful, and you are alone and your mind is turned toward God, then you may take the yogi medicine.”

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Obviously, there's a lot more to say, but for now I'll leave it at this.

[Thailand J]

 

 

[mauGR1]

10 hours ago, Thailand J said:

 

 

Watching tv can impair your thinking abilities.

[Elad]

On 1/23/2020 at 3:51 AM, Sunmaster said:

“The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existence. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery each day. (Einstein)

“The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion that stands at the cradle of true art and true science.” (also Einstein)

"The most incomprehensible thing about the universe is that it's comprehensible". (also Einstein)

 

"Science can explain the universe without the need for a creator". (Stephen Hawking)

 

I believe we can find the theory of everything providing there's only one universe.

Back in the 1960's when Peter Higgs (and others) theorised the Higgs boson, they also predicted that if the mass of the Higgs was found to be 140 GeV, then this would imply a multiverse. However, if the Higgs has a mass of 115 GeV then we have one universe, and this is what the scientist want because all the particles that make up the complete standard model will exist in this universe.

 

If there's a multiverse then some of the missing particles that make up the standard model will exist in other universes which we have no access to and therefore have no chance of finding a complete theory of everything...

 

When the experimentalists at CERN found the Higgs boson in 2012, they also found that the mass of the Higgs was around a 125 GeV. So its somewhere between the two predictions and although its closer to the 115 mark they still don't know if a multiverse exists or not. 

 

 

[luckyluke]

On 1/23/2020 at 8:00 PM, mauGR1 said:

Don't you think opinion may differ on what exists and what doesn't ?

Rather surprised. 

But of course I like this,

simple but, 

Oh so true. 

Tolerance is a great thing. 

 Bigotism isn't. 

 

[luckyluke]

On 1/24/2020 at 7:22 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

WE know nothing yet.

We have learned a lot and understand more now than someone who lived 1000 years ago. 

 

I am sure it won't stop.

 

Many questions, incomprehensible things, we now give, each of us, a different explanation, will be clear and net one day. 

 

This of course applicable to each of us with different opinions about "existence". 

[sirineou]

17 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

On 1/23/2020 at 8:00 AM, mauGR1 said:

Don't you think opinion may differ on what exists and what doesn't ?

Rather surprised. 

But of course I like this,

simple but, 

Oh so true. 

Tolerance is a great thing. 

 Bigotism isn't. 

What exists or what does not exist is not a matter of opinion. 

[luckyluke]

On 1/24/2020 at 12:38 PM, mauGR1 said:

Whatever you are drinking today, must be good. ????

There are different "good" ways. 

Medidation is one for a member here. 

Maybe is drinking another way. 

[luckyluke]

30 minutes ago, sirineou said:

What exists or what does not exist is not a matter of opinion. 

I am not agree, but I respect your opinion. 

 

It is of course not that simple. 

 

I believe I exist, that's not an opinion for me. 

 

I don't believe in the existence of "something" in a "creator", that's my opinion. 

Edited January 27, 2020 by luckyluke

[sirineou]

1 minute ago, luckyluke said:

I am not agree, but I respect your opinion. 

I appreciate that, and at no point have I being disrespectful, at least I hope i have not.

but i would like to know why you disagree that things exist or do not exist regardless of what we think.

[luckyluke]

10 minutes ago, sirineou said:

I appreciate that, and at no point have I being disrespectful, at least I hope i have not.

but i would like to know why you disagree that things exist or do not exist regardless of what we think.

No disrespectful af all. 

I added some comments on my post while you were writing. 

I hope this is more clear. 

I must tell you that I am not able (in language and mind) to have "sophisticated" discussions. 

If for "Believing" one need to be scholared, it is obvious it isn't for everyone. 

And if there is a "creator" he is than a selective one, in my opinion.

 

[sirineou]

1 minute ago, luckyluke said:

No disrespectful af all. 

I added some comments on my post while you were writing. 

I hope this is more clear. 

I must tell you that I am not able (in language and mind) to have "sophisticated" discussions. 

If for "Believing" one need to be scholared, it is obvious it isn't for everyone. 

And if there is a "creator" he is than a selective one, in my opinion.

 

I don't disagree with you, you are entitled to believe whatever you want to believe, as am I ,as long as our beliefs do not compromise eachothers lives, which I am sure you will agree is not the case with all religious people. 

 but as far as the subject matter pertaining to this  limited conversation we are having now, I fail to see how the existence of things is a matter of opinion. Opinion is Subjective rather than Objective . We can all have an opinion but it does not change the fact.  

You say:

26 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

I believe I exist, that's not an opinion for me.

of course it is not, it objective fact dependant on verifiable analysis. Don't confuse beliefs with Faith.

[luckyluke]

30 minutes ago, sirineou said:

I fail to see how the existence of things is a matter of opinion

 

I consider "things" as something visible/touchable. 

 

If they aren't, it is a matter of belief they exist or not. 

 

And for me "Believing" is an opinion. 

 

I believe I love my wife, and  I believe she loves me too. 

 

We are a couple for 20 years. 

 

Some believe in a "creator" and are verry happy with it. 

 

Others don't, and have a "similar" feeling. 

 

I write "similar" because one knows how ones feel, not how another is feeling. 

 

There is a poster here who find happiness and more in meditation, another believe everything which is written in a book (Bible). 

 

Good for them. 

 

I tried to read the Bible and the Koran. 

 

Too complicated and boring. 

 

I tried  medidation when I was young (I was 20 in 1968 - it was modish than). 

 

Didn't work. 

 

What I understand, practiced and still do is :

 

"Try to do good, don't do bad intentionally". 

 

Simple, efficient and satisfactory for me. 

 

Others need that and more. 

 

Up to them, I wish them the best. 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2020 by luckyluke

[canuckamuck]

On 1/23/2020 at 7:44 AM, Skeptic7 said:

Says alot! And let's beat this dead horse a bit more and not forget all the horrors and suffering right here on Earth which speak volumes of their imaginary designer. Earthquakes, tsunamis, tornadoes, hurricanes, droughts, parasites, deadly diseases and horrible birth defects, cancers and even more intelligently and beautifully designed...infant and childhood cancers with agonizingly painful and slow demise. And it is intelligently creating more loveliness all the time. What's the latest designed gem...nCoV? Guess SARS has lost it's luster. 

 

Brilliant! So beautiful. So perfect. So wonderful So intelligent. ????????????

This is from your concept that God in his attempt to make something beautiful failed and made all sorts of terrible things.

But that is you imagination of what God should be. Some investigation would show that creation has the potential to be a place without suffering, but the suffering was brought by man. Man was given free will and could have continued a painless existence.

Now we are in a state of learning the difference between the order of God and the suffering and chaos of 'not God'.

Many still choose the 'not God" option.