Do you believe in God and why

[Sunmaster]

9 minutes ago, teatime101 said:

Somebody posted a slab of text written by an astrologer who believes in reincarnation therapy, who then proceeds to make unsubstantiated and controversial claims about the discipline of science. 

 

I think you need to justify why his writing is being quoted at all. How does it support or challenge the OP's question about belief in god?

 

Or do you just generally agree with his attack on the whole area of science?

I found it quite pertinent to the discussion.
You and the other guy praise science so much and imply that the only real reality (whatever that means to you) is what science can explain, while whatever it can't explain, must be "nonsense" or "absurd drivel" or "fairy tales". 
That "slab of text" was simply putting you and the overinflated opinion of science back in its place. Science does a great job in exploring and explaining the material world, but when it comes to the spiritual or subjective world, science simply doesn't have the tools nor the knowledge to make any claims. So why would you take science to explain what a spiritual experience is? Why would you ask a scientist what compassion or divine love is? Wearing a white lab coat is not enough of a credential to answer the deep questions in life.
And it's not an either-or issue....it's not science VS spirituality. That's just a very simplistic way of thinking. 
Once you dismiss an important part of the human condition like spirituality in one big sweep, you're not only doing a great disservice to humanity and its search for knowledge, but you're doing a great disservice to your own evolution. Science, in its purest form, has a very clear purpose:
Science aims to explain and understand. Science as a collective institution aims to produce more and more accurate natural explanations of how the natural world works, what its components are, and how the world got to be the way it is now. (https://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/0_0_0/whatisscience_04)

We can only advance as a species if we can go beyond this VS that, and use ALL the knowledge at our disposal to make sense of this life, to explain and understand both what is on the outside (the natural world) and what is on the inside (the subjective or spiritual world). 

 

[teatime101]

12 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

That "slab of text" was simply putting you and the overinflated opinion of science back in its place.

Apart from Dethlefsen making a lot of unsubstantiated assertions, in what way do you think it does that? In what way is my 'opinion' of science 'overinflated'? 

 

Can you be a bit more specific? This is my problem with the text quoted earlier. Unless there is a specific point made and an example given, there's really nothing to discuss.

 

Also, shouldn't we be discussing your opinions, rather than some random guy off the internet?

[teatime101]

18 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

We can only advance as a species if we can go beyond this VS that, and use ALL the knowledge at our disposal to make sense of this life, to explain and understand both what is on the outside (the natural world) and what is on the inside (the subjective or spiritual world).

I agree with you, but I believe the subjective world is best expressed through the arts. What is subjective, ipso facto, cannot be shared objectively, which makes it very difficult to sort the wheat from the chaff. 

 

You can make a painting and tell me it's how you feel and I will happily accept what you say. If you tell me x=y but cannot show me why, no amount of, "Oh, it's subjective" is going to convince me it's true.

 

In other words, facts are facts - and that's where science comes in. 

 

 

[teatime101]

26 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

ou and the other guy praise science so much and imply that the only real reality (whatever that means to you) is what science can explain, while whatever it can't explain, must be "nonsense" or "absurd drivel" or "fairy tales". 

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't think that's a fair summary of my position. I think the 'slab of text' quoted above is nonsense, but I don't think your comments above are nonsense.

Yes, religion is based on a lot of fairy tales, but the 'teachings of Jesus' (or whoever) for example, are really fine. I just wish Christians in general we're a bit more Christlike (loving, non-materialistic, peaceful, etc), and a bit less judgemental, and in the case of the US, a bit less gun-totin'.

[Sunmaster]

2 minutes ago, teatime101 said:

Apart from Dethlefsen making a lot of unsubstantiated assertions, in what way do you think it does that? In what way is my 'opinion' of science 'overinflated'? 

 

Can you be a bit more specific? This is my problem with the text quoted earlier. Unless there is a specific point made and an example given, there's really nothing to discuss.

 

Also, shouldn't we be discussing your opinions, rather than some random guy off the internet?

I used the term 'overinflated' because you and a few others always fall back to science when trying to discuss areas that have nothing to do with science. To be even more specific: science is a tool to explain the material world. Spirituality is non-material and deals with subjective realities. 
I use a specific tools for specific jobs. A spanner to repair my motorcycle, meditation to explore my inside.

You are trying to use a spanner to understand spirituality and get frustrated when it doesn't work. When others point to the fact that you're using the wrong tool, you get all worked up and start banging the spanner on spirituality and religion until your hand hurts. ????

 

11 minutes ago, teatime101 said:

Also, shouldn't we be discussing your opinions, rather than some random guy off the internet?

Yes, we can do that. I'd be happy to, as long as the discussion is civilized and there is a sincere exchange of knowledge.
 

[teatime101]

16 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

You are trying to use a spanner to understand spirituality and get frustrated when it doesn't work.

I'm questioning the basis of how we communicate about non-physical things, such as religious belief.

 

It's not so much that I don't 'understand spirituality', but that I don't believe anyone knows what the term even means. Do you? I certainly don't. I thought I did, a long time ago in a galaxy far away.

 

'It's subjective' is also a bit of a copout, IMO.

 

Unless people can agree on an externally verifiable meaning for things, communication is.. hmm, the Tower of Babel comes to mind....

Edited May 4, 2020 by teatime101

[Sunmaster]

28 minutes ago, teatime101 said:

I agree with you, but I believe the subjective world is best expressed through the arts. What is subjective, ipso facto, cannot be shared objectively, which makes it very difficult to sort the wheat from the chaff. 

 

You can make a painting and tell me it's how you feel and I will happily accept what you say. If you tell me x=y but cannot show me why, no amount of, "Oh, it's subjective" is going to convince me it's true.

 

In other words, facts are facts - and that's where science comes in. 

 

 

I can tell you from experience, that subjective realities can be accessed through a plethora of techniques and methods, and that we all share those realities. That means that the subjective experiences are not just random visions or meaningless hallucinations, but are a direct consequence of practicing those methods. 
Crude example: 20 minutes of breathing exercises and meditation daily, will have the consequence that you will learn not to get attached to the passing thoughts that constantly pop in your head and you'll increase your concentration generally. Increased even-mindedness, creativity and intuition are other consequences.
And this is just the first baby step....there's a long way to go to the top. But each step has been explored, categorized and understood a long time ago, not by science, but by some very wise men. The map to the top is there for anyone willing to embark on that journey. 
If you don't want to walk this path, fair enough. Maybe you have other things to work through before you feel the need to search for more. It's just like the famous scene in The Matrix where Neo has the choice between the red and the blue pill. There is no judgement either way.

 

Edited May 4, 2020 by Sunmaster

[teatime101]

7 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Crude example: 20 minutes of breathing exercises and meditation daily, will have the consequence that you will learn not to get attached to the passing thoughts that constantly pop in your head and you'll increase your concentration generally. Increased even-mindedness, creativity and intuition are other consequences.

I can't fault any of that. Sounds very sensible.

 

My relaxation lately is to attempt to copy and learn from masters like Van Gogh and Cezanne. Also trying to play 'Riders on the Storm' on my keyboard. Nothing remotely sciencey. Oh, and watching my watermelons grow like billyo.

 

A little bit of subjective living...

Edited May 4, 2020 by teatime101

[Sunmaster]

 

 

20 minutes ago, teatime101 said:

I can't fault any of that. Sounds very sensible.

 

My relaxation lately is to attempt to copy and learn from masters like Van Gogh and Cezanne. Also trying to play 'Riders on the Storm' on my keyboard. Nothing remotely sciencey. Oh, and watching my watermelons grow like billyo.

 

A little bit of subjective living...

I can relate to all of that....sculpting, drawing, playing music and gardening are great ways to open the "doors of perception". ????

[Elad]

9 hours ago, fredwiggy said:

One religion gets it's knowledge from a book. The Bible. God's words put into writing, so we can learn what he expects from us.

The book that tells us the Earth is flat, and at the centre of the universe?

[Elad]

17 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

Take Gravity, Gravity isn't a law that was invented and loh & behold, came to exist, it's a direct result caused by the Earth spinning... if the Earth were to stop spinning, there would be no Gravity, Law or not...

The Earth's spin actually reduces the effects of gravity. You will weigh less at the equator than you would at the poles.  

[Skeptic7]

1 hour ago, Elad said:

The book that tells us the Earth is flat, and at the centre of the universe?

And let's not leave out the talking serpent and donkey...and the resurrected Zombie Jesus whom was born of a virgin!

 

[ozbanglamung]

I lost my daughter to cancer in the form of a Brain Tumour when she was just two and a half years old. The day she died in my arms was the day I realized that God is just a figment of the imagination. 

[Mike Teavee]

5 hours ago, Elad said:

The Earth's spin actually reduces the effects of gravity. You will weigh less at the equator than you would at the poles.  

Thanks... Silly of me to get my Centrifugal mixed up with my Centripetal ???? 

 

For anybody who's interested in watching the Flat Earther documentary (wouldn't really recommend it) it was called "Behind the Curve" & is available on Netflix. 

 

I've came across it as I was randomly scanning documentaries, another one I came across was Religulous with Bill Maher... https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0815241/

 

Is there really a Holy Land theme park along the lines of Harry Potter world? (I think that in itself says something)

 

 

[Sunmaster]

1 hour ago, Mike Teavee said:

Thanks... Silly of me to get my Centrifugal mixed up with my Centripetal ???? 

 

For anybody who's interested in watching the Flat Earther documentary (wouldn't really recommend it) it was called "Behind the Curve" & is available on Netflix. 

 

I've came across it as I was randomly scanning documentaries, another one I came across was Religulous with Bill Maher... https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0815241/

 

Is there really a Holy Land theme park along the lines of Harry Potter world? (I think that in itself says something)

 

 

So, what does it say? 

[Skeptic7]

4 hours ago, ozbanglamung said:

I lost my daughter to cancer in the form of a Brain Tumour when she was just two and a half years old. The day she died in my arms was the day I realized that God is just a figment of the imagination. 

The empathy and sympathy I'm feeling about the death of your daughter is crushing. Mere words cannot express my sorrow for your loss. 

 

The harsh reality is that some are fortunate enough to have evolved and (thus far anyway) survived in this naturally violent, many times cruel and dangerous world, spinning in an uncaring universe where nature does not give an "eff" about any of us. Others are less fortunate. Some suffer immensely, while others less or not at all. Nature doesn't choose nor favor nor discriminate.  

 

Since the topic is still "God"...IMO you've reached the correct conclusion. It's heartbreaking it had to be under such a dreadful circumstance in such a painful way. 

[fredwiggy]

5 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

And let's not leave out the talking serpent and donkey...and the resurrected Zombie Jesus whom was born of a virgin!

 

And having the blind man see, raising  Lazarus from the dead, turning a few fish into many, walking on water. Yes, unlike using mirrors, slight of hand and deception like magicians, this was done by God. The same God that made everything from his mind.

Edited May 5, 2020 by fredwiggy

[Sunmaster]

4 hours ago, ozbanglamung said:

I lost my daughter to cancer in the form of a Brain Tumour when she was just two and a half years old. The day she died in my arms was the day I realized that God is just a figment of the imagination. 

I'm very sorry to hear this, ozbanglamung.

When I lost my unborn child, some people asked me if I will ever be able to forgive God. I was very surprised at that question, because in my mind I never blamed God in the first place. It was the most traumatic moment in my life, but I can only imagine how soul crushing it must have been for you.

It's not something you can ever get over, but I hope you'll be able to live with it. 

????

[Peter Denis]

21 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

And having the blind man see, raising  Lazarus from the dead, turning a few fish into many, walking on water. Yes, unlike using mirrors, slight of hand and deception like magicians, this was done by God. The same God that made everything from his mind.

As a religious - or should I rather say a spiritually inclined - person I can easily relate to what these parables try to convey to us.  But I do not take them literally, it are attempts to describe spiritual growth in layman's terms.

A discussion between hardcore science-believers (which is not same as a scientists) and those that take the Scriptures literally, makes me cringe and obviously I am always battered by both sides for my naivete / lack of faith.

[Peter Denis]

12 hours ago, teatime101 said:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorwald_Dethlefsen

 

He's a fruitcake. 

 

Dethlefsen learned astrology from Wolfgang Döbereiner and soon took the view that it could be used to carry out psychological diagnoses .

In the early 1970s, as a psychology student , Dethlefsen conducted hypnosis experiments to demonstrate the memories of supposed past lives among his friends and acquaintances. ^[1] After his psychology degree, he developed the reincarnation therapy , which to this day in various forms from other therapists will be applied, including by Ruediger Dahlke , but which broke up in 1989 by Dethlefsen.

The text copied from the introduction of the Dethlefsen book must have struck a chord with you, that you made the effort to look him up.

But your conclusion that he is a 'fruitcake' based on this short Wikipedia excerpt, is not very substantiated.

Actually Dethlefsen was an esotericist, and he studied many fields that endeavour to describe a different reality than the material one.  E.g. kabbalah, alchemy, tarot, hermetic philosophy, etc.  Also astrology, but that being only one way of 'reading the world' (and of course, astrology is something completely different than your newspaper star-sign).

Interestingly he pioneered reincarnation therapy, but eventually came to dismiss its use by his followers as it often distracted the patient from the task at hand which lies in the Here and Now.

Also the introductory text to his book does not 'insult scientists', but wants to make the point that science is useful when applied to the natural physical world.  And that a different methodology is needed when addressing matters of the spirit.

In the book he provides the full background for the 'outlandish claims' he is making in the introduction. 

Note: The english language version of the book 'The Challenge of Fate' has been long sold out and is only available 2nd hand (between 150 and 300 US $ on Amazon).  But it is available for download in PDF-format for free.  Thank you Internet!

> https://dlscrib.com/download/the-challenge-of-fate-thorwald-dethlefsen_58e75d74dc0d602473da981e_pdf

One of the most influential spiritual books I ever laid my hands on.

[mauGR1]

55 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

A discussion between hardcore science-believers (which is not same as a scientists) and those that take the Scriptures literally, makes me cringe and obviously I am always battered by both sides for my naivete / lack of faith.

I am being battered by everyone, believe me, it's a good sign ????

[KC 71]

4 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

I am being battered by everyone, believe me, it's a good sign ????

???? Try seeing it from a fishes point of view ????

[thaibeachlovers]

On 5/4/2020 at 1:59 PM, gargamon said:

You call it faith, I call it brainwashing. And the simple fact that there are multiple religions, with billions of followers, each with a "god" that is different in many ways than the others, leads much credence to my viewpoint.

For the umpteenth time, religion has nothing to do with faith, or the creator. Religions are creations of man.

 

I've never tried to tell an atheist that they are wrong- they can believe whatever they like, so why are atheists so determined to convert those of us with faith to believe in nothing? Atheists have no more clue about life the universe and everything than we do. No one KNOWS- that's why it's called faith.

I'd rather believe in something than nothing, especially as I see the creator in everything around me. If one can't see the creator in nature, that's their problem, not mine.

[mauGR1]

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

so why are atheists so determined to convert those of us with faith to believe in nothing?

I asked myself that question a few times.

Perhaps, as they see the end approaching, they start to feel scared, lonely and helpless, they are just looking for someone who is as miserable as them to share the misery.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

The harsh reality is that some are fortunate enough to have evolved and (thus far anyway) survived in this naturally violent, many times cruel and dangerous world, spinning in an uncaring universe where nature does not give an "eff" about any of us. Others are less fortunate. Some suffer immensely, while others less or not at all. Nature doesn't choose nor favor nor discriminate.  

Good grief, I actually agree with something you wrote, but only that part.

 

I don't know why people think "God" murdered their child, but I suppose it helps to blame something for what is just something that happens for no discernable reason. Cows don't blame God when they are killed to be eaten.

My brother died at 2 years old, but I've never blamed God for killing him as it's just life. Life sucks, but that's just the way it is.

[giddyup]

2 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

I asked myself that question a few times.

Perhaps, as they see the end approaching, they start to feel scared, lonely and helpless, they are just looking for someone who is as miserable as them to share the misery.

I don't see Atheists knocking on doors trying to convert people to a particular faith, or sending missionaries to far flung corners of the   globe, or torturing people to either convert or die. If anyone is fearful of dying it's those who believe in an afterlife.

[thaibeachlovers]

12 hours ago, teatime101 said:

Apart from Dethlefsen making a lot of unsubstantiated assertions, in what way do you think it does that? In what way is my 'opinion' of science 'overinflated'? 

 

Can you be a bit more specific? This is my problem with the text quoted earlier. Unless there is a specific point made and an example given, there's really nothing to discuss.

 

Also, shouldn't we be discussing your opinions, rather than some random guy off the internet?

Science does not know everything and science is never settled. New information is always coming along that changes current knowledge.

Anyone that puts all their faith in science is IMO misguided. Science only knows what it knows, and there is much it does not know ( yet ).

[mauGR1]

5 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Science does not know everything and science is never settled. New information is always coming along that changes current knowledge.

Anyone that puts all their faith in science is IMO misguided. Science only knows what it knows, and there is much it does not know ( yet ).

Yes, and let's not forget that scientists are humans, they enjoy wealth and power the same as everybody does, and power corrupts.

Science is divine, but scientists are not.

[thaibeachlovers]

10 minutes ago, giddyup said:

I don't see Atheists knocking on doors trying to convert people to a particular faith, or sending missionaries to far flung corners of the   globe, or torturing people to either convert or die. If anyone is fearful of dying it's those who believe in an afterlife.

I was referring to posters on this thread when I wrote the post he quoted to which you replied. Many atheists on here seem determined to "convert" those of us with faith.

[giddyup]

2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I was referring to posters on this thread when I wrote the post he quoted to which you replied. Many atheists on here seem determined to "convert" those of us with faith.

Sounds pretty much like you were generalising to me.

I've never tried to tell an atheist that they are wrong- they can believe whatever they like, so why are atheists so determined to convert those of us with faith to believe in nothing? Atheists have no more clue about life the universe and everything than we do. No one KNOWS- that's why it's called faith. But unlike Atheists, Christians have forced their religion upon other cultures.

Edited May 5, 2020 by giddyup