Do you believe in God and why

[thaibeachlovers]

14 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

Strange, I never heard you complaining about science posts when they fit your narrative. You yourself referred to science countless times. It's all on here, black on white. Now, faced with evidence that could  threaten your house of cards, suddenly you make an 180degree turn and say that science should not be discussed here. Oh the irony... ???? 

True.

Bob Dylan had something relevant to contribute

 

Yes, and how many times can a man turn his head
And pretend that he just doesn't see?

 

Yes, and how many times must a man look up
Before he can see the sky?

 

The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind

 

 

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

On 6/29/2021 at 11:53 PM, Sparktrader said:

Happy to believe but there is no logical reason. Murders, rapes etc.

 

If god exists he's an AH. Doesnt do anything to stop bad stuff.

 

And how can god create himself? It's not possible.

If you claim there is no God, you should be able to explain where all the matter in the universe came from. If you can't explain the appearance of matter from nothing, it follows that you can't deny the possibility of God the creator of the universe.

I await your explanation with anticipation.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 6/29/2021 at 9:35 PM, Sparktrader said:

So it's imaginary evidence. Only exists in  the minds of the promoters. Bit like Loch Ness. A scam.

Like romantic love then? Only exists in the mind of jewelry salesmen and authors hoping to cash in off it IMO.

I reckon there is more proof for the existence of God than for romantic love, yet multi millions believe in romantic love.

[Skeptic7]

2 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

 

"This thread is about belief in GOD, god, gods. NOT science, research, states of consciousness or brain waves."

Mr. Skeptic7, June 2021

 

????

The above was specifically directed at YOU 'cuz you were Off Topic and admittedly trying to avoid talking about the OP topic...a thing called God. You were hijacking the OP by carrying on about brain waves and brain states, of which probably no one disagrees. Interesting stuff, maybe, but way off topic and requires a new thread. This thread has lasted so long because it has believers debating with non-believers about god-beliefs. That is the only reason for this thread's longevity. The 2 sides disagreeing, debating and pushing back. Highly doubtful there would be any pushback on accepted phenomena like brain waves and brain states. No one disagrees and most wouldn't give it much (or any) thought as it's not as interesting nor very contentious.

 

Anyone can define anything as "god", such as brain states or a coffee mug. But we already have words for those things and they're not God. And as I iterated previously, even if in the highly unlikely event that Fenwick turns out to show that consciousness exists outside of or without a brain, this still presents nothing about any god. Assuming such would be another giant leap, still without a shred of evidence leading to any god-thing. 

 

[Sunmaster]

20 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

The above was specifically directed at YOU 'cuz you were Off Topic and admittedly trying to avoid talking about the OP topic...a thing called God. You were hijacking the OP by carrying on about brain waves and brain states, of which probably no one disagrees. Interesting stuff, maybe, but way off topic and requires a new thread.

 

I was hoping your silence was because you were actually doing some research, but alas...

If you had, you would have easily found out that brain waves and states of consciousness are very much on topic. It is in fact during the altered states of stage 4 and 5 that religious, mystical experiences happen.

I spell it out for you....mystical experience = spiritual experience = the experience of unity with God
 

20 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

This thread has lasted so long because it has believers debating with non-believers about god-beliefs. That is the only reason for this thread's longevity. The 2 sides disagreeing, debating and pushing back. Highly doubtful there would be any pushback on accepted phenomena like brain waves and brain states. No one disagrees and most wouldn't give it much (or any) thought as it's not as interesting nor very contentious.

So this is all you are seeking from this thread? To focus on the differences between two belief systems? Does that make you feel better?
Wouldn't it be much more productive to seek commonalities between the two? Or is that not "contentious" enough for you? Maybe they don't provide enough ammunition for your ill-informed personal attacks?

You asked for scientific evidence. I offered a scientific approach. You spit the dummy. 
Either discuss the topic at hand or make a retreat. The choice is yours.


 

 

Edited July 1, 2021 by Sunmaster

[Sunmaster]

22 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

Highly doubtful there would be any pushback on accepted phenomena like brain waves and brain states. No one disagrees and most wouldn't give it much (or any) thought as it's not as interesting nor very contentious.

There was a pushback from you though. ???? Which is strange since, as you say, you don't disagree with phenomena like brain waves and states of consciousness...so why the temper tantrum?
 

[Sunmaster]

Despite the protests of some of our more obtuse posters, I'd like to further analyze the correlation between states of consciousness and mystical (spiritual or religious) experiences.

As we've seen, thanks to the regular practice of meditation (but not only), an advanced person can shift his awareness from the ordinary "waking sleep" (state 3, our usual waking state, Alpha and Beta brain waves) to the states of "Self-Transcendence" (state 4, Theta waves) and "Objective Consciousness (state 5, Delta waves). 
States 4 and 5 are entered at will and in full awareness of the meditator. Everybody experiences these wave patterns just before and during sleep, but we obviously don't have control over these processes.
These 2 states are the fertile ground for what has been called mystical experience. 

There are common characteristic traits that distinguish such experiences, whether they are experienced by Christians, Muslims, Hindus ...or even atheists (yes, atheists can indeed have mystical experiences!).

These common traits are:
1) The death of the ego. There is no longer an identification with your body or personality. The boundaries between what you perceive as "I" and the world vanish, leaving only perception or "being".
2) No time, no space. You go from perceiving time from moment-to-moment as a static individual, to perceiving it as a stream of eternal present moments.

3) Objective Reality. You experience a more profound reality that appears to be "more real" than anything experienced before. 

4) Gratitude. An immense sense of gratitude, awe and bliss overcomes you for this gift you've been given.

5) Life is seen as sacred. You develop a new sense of respect for the sacredness of life that allows you to be here.
6) You understand paradoxes. Going beyond duality enables you to gain new understanding. For example, "God is One and a trinity" or "To do by not-doing", suddenly make sense.
7) The Experience Is Indescribable. The magnitude of the experience is impossible to squeeze into words. Only parables and metaphors can be used to clumsily describe it.

8. The Experience Is Temporary. Eventually, you end up returning back to your habitual way of life, but the experience changes something deep inside.

9) The Experience Is Life-Changing. After experiencing such a state, suddenly death isn’t as scary as it used to be, and the beliefs or ambitions that you once held to be so important immediately lose their meaning. In fact, the mystical experience often awakens a thirst to try to bring as much of that experience back into our regular day-to-day lives as possible.

(loosely taken from https://lonerwolf.com/mystical-experience/)

 

But why are there so many different accounts of mystical experiences? Some people see angels, others Krishna, some encounter demons, others infinite Light...? How we perceive the ultimate reality is still clouded by our own belief system and temperament. It's like pure light shining through a prism. The cleared our prism is, the better and more directly we can perceive the pure light.

The Highest State of Consciousness has been given many different names throughout history. Some call it God (see, still on topic ???? )or Heaven, others Nirvana, Samadhi, The Tao, Brahman...ultimately they all describe the same thing.

 

[Skeptic7]

19 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

I spell it out for you....mystical experience = spiritual experience = the experience of unity with God

Only thing spelled out here is... 

B-U-N-K

 

Typical standard fare by some of the more obtuse posters here for more than 2 years. 

[Sunmaster]

2 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

Only thing spelled out here is... 

B-U-N-K

 

Typical standard fare by some of the more obtuse posters here for more than 2 years. 

555

 

I dare you to D-E-B-U-N-K it then.

 

Put the money where your mouth is and show us evidence that states of consciousness and brain waves do not exist, and that they are not related to mystical experiences. 

 

The scientific society will be eternally grateful. ????

[Skeptic7]

46 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

555

 

I dare you to D-E-B-U-N-K it then.

 

Put the money where your mouth is and show us evidence that states of consciousness and brain waves do not exist, and that they are not related to mystical experiences. 

 

The scientific society will be eternally grateful. ????

NEVER disputed brain waves, nor brain states. The BUNK you spewed and was specifically quoted above is your equating a so-called and subjective "mystical" experience + another very subjective term...the so-called "spiritual" experience and abracadabra = unity with God. Sorry son..doesn't work that way. 

 

Present that load to the scientific community, other than maybe Fenwick and his ilk, and you'd be laughed right out of the room. 

[Sunmaster]

1 hour ago, Skeptic7 said:

NEVER disputed brain waves, nor brain states. The BUNK you spewed and was specifically quoted above is your equating a so-called and subjective "mystical" experience + another very subjective term...the so-called "spiritual" experience and abracadabra = unity with God. Sorry son..doesn't work that way. 

 

Present that load to the scientific community, other than maybe Fenwick and his ilk, and you'd be laughed right out of the room. 

You're obviously not very well informed on the scientific research done so far, or you would know that there are many reputable scientists out there who point towards exactly this correlation between the objective brain waves/states of consciousness and the sa-called mystical experiences.

To name a few: Stanley Krippner (psychologist, university of Wisconsin), Roger Wescott (graduated summa cum laude and first in his class from Princeton. Ph.D. in Linguistics, Professor of Anthropology), Richard M. Bucke (Canadian psychiatrist), Robert Sylvester de Ropp (English biochemist and researcher and academic in that field), R.D. Laing (psychiatrist), Edward W. Maupin (psychologist), Fritjof Capra (American physicist, systems theorist and deep ecologist), David Joseph Bohm (American scientist who has been described as one of the most significant theoretical physicists of the 20th century and who contributed unorthodox ideas to quantum theory, neuropsychology and the philosophy of mind), Carl Gustav Jung, (Swiss psychiatrist and psychoanalyst who founded analytical psychology), Andrew C. Papanicolaou (Professor Emeritus of Clinical Neurosciences of the University of Tennessee), Abraham Maslow (American psychologist)......and a LOT more....

These are obviously just a few of them...some I've read, some I found online. I chose those more strictly connected to the scientific world, so as not to trigger you too much. ???? You're welcome.

 

Now son, what were you saying? 

 

Edited July 2, 2021 by Sunmaster

[Skeptic7]

47 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Now son, what were you saying?

Consensus among the experts is the key and is precisely what I'm saying. Here's 2 excerpts from Psychology Today article and the link to the entire article at the end. 

 

The prevailing consensus in neuroscience is that consciousness is an emergent property of the brain and its metabolism. When the brain dies, the mind and consciousness of the being to whom that brain belonged ceases to exist. In other words, without a brain, there can be no consciousness.

 

... there is no current way to empirically establish the validity of Fenwick’s cosmic consciousness hypothesis. Ultimately, it aligns more with faith than science. Thus it seems the answer to the question in this post’s title is “No.” There is no empirically established explanatory framework for understanding how consciousness can exist independently and outside of the brain.

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/think-well/201906/does-consciousness-exist-outside-the-brain

[Sunmaster]

9 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

Consensus among the experts is the key and is precisely what I'm saying. Here's 2 excerpts from Psychology Today article and the link to the entire article at the end. 

 

The prevailing consensus in neuroscience is that consciousness is an emergent property of the brain and its metabolism. When the brain dies, the mind and consciousness of the being to whom that brain belonged ceases to exist. In other words, without a brain, there can be no consciousness.

 

... there is no current way to empirically establish the validity of Fenwick’s cosmic consciousness hypothesis. Ultimately, it aligns more with faith than science. Thus it seems the answer to the question in this post’s title is “No.” There is no empirically established explanatory framework for understanding how consciousness can exist independently and outside of the brain.

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/think-well/201906/does-consciousness-exist-outside-the-brain

Are you intentionally deflecting or are you just confused?
You are talking about something else. I never talked about Fenwick, nor was the discussion about whether consciousness is produced by the brain or not. And btw, a consensus is not a fact but a general agreement of opinions. Not facts.

The discussion was about the mystical episodes experienced during altered states of consciousness.
Please stay on topic if you can.

 

Edited July 2, 2021 by Sunmaster

[Skeptic7]

12 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

The discussion was about the mystical episodes experienced during altered states of consciousness

Whatever bro. Get back to me when all this empirically proves any "god".

 

And please come with more than...gee dog spelled backwards and POOF! = wow I just found god. 

 

Same deductive unreasoning used with mystical experience + spiritual experience = god. ????????????

[Sunmaster]

1 minute ago, Skeptic7 said:

Whatever bro. Get back to me when all this empirically proves any "god".

 

And please come with more than...gee dog spelled backwards and POOF! = wow I just found god. 

 

Same deductive unreasoning used with mystical experience + spiritual experience = god. ????????????

Just what I thought.... 555
Get back to me when you have a valid argument to "debunk" scientific discovery.

I'll look forward to that, but I certainly won't hold my breath. 
See ya

[metisdead]

A post using an oversized emoticon has been removed. 

[Orinoco]

On 6/29/2021 at 6:20 PM, Sunmaster said:

I'm sure nobody got reported who didn't deserve it. ????

What goes around comes around.   LOL 

[Sunmaster]

33 minutes ago, metisdead said:

A post using an oversized emoticon has been removed. 

If we could still use the emoticons in the editor there would be no need to use others.

[Sunmaster]

Dear @Skeptic7, adding laughing emojis won't help you to climb out of the hole you dug yourself in.  
<insert laughing emoji here>

[mauGR1]

Imho, science,  the way is intended in this point of history,  cannot prove or disprove the existence of an intelligent design. 

No chance.

Perhaps science can prove brain waves, but that is not a proof for a materialistic way of thinking. 

Those people think that consciousness is a product of the human brain, but I'm convinced that,  should the whole planet explode into flames, consciousness would still exist.

Just look how many stars in the sky ????

The only way to enter higher states of consciousness is transcending the physical body, or false ego...

...and that's exactly what materialistic people don't want, or cannot do... well, at least until they die.

Whatever makes you happy,  i say.

 

[Sunmaster]

3 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Imho, science,  the way is intended in this point of history,  cannot prove or disprove the existence of an intelligent design. 

No chance.

Perhaps science can prove brain waves, but that is not a proof for a materialistic way of thinking. 

Those people think that consciousness is a product of the human brain, but I'm convinced that,  should the whole planet explode into flames, consciousness would still exist.

Just look how many stars in the sky ????

The only way to enter higher states of consciousness is transcending the physical body, or false ego...

...and that's exactly what materialistic people don't want, or cannot do... well, at least until they die.

Whatever makes you happy,  i say.

 

All true, but the neuroscientific and psychological approach is the best we have right now for verifying the spiritual realm in scientific terms. For those that need such verification, of course. I have to admit though, that seeing how science is starting to investigate these phenomena is quite satisfying (and amusing), especially when presented to the incorrigible materialists. 
They scatter away and silently disappear back into their troll holes, or retreat into a corner, ready to attack anyone who threatens to destabilize their carefully built house of cards. Will it ever satisfy their skepticism? Highly doubtful. But maybe it will plant some seeds that will flower at a later time....who knows.
The whole thing is quite fascinating to observe actually. 

Whatever makes you happy,  i say.
Absolutely. It's just curious that such people come to post on a thread like this, demand scientific evidence for the spiritual claims, but when presented with scientific facts, they suddenly freak out. lol
 

[mauGR1]

3 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

But maybe it will plant some seeds that will flower at a later time....who knows.
The whole thing is quite fascinating to observe actually. 

Yep, actually the seed is there already,  at least in most of the cases, I guess. 

The simple fact that some of those folks are persistent in their trolling, almost like they need to convince themselves, is a clear sign that they are not fully satisfied with the materialistic side of life, even if they'd hardly admit it.

[Sparktrader]

On 7/1/2021 at 12:48 PM, thaibeachlovers said:

If you claim there is no God, you should be able to explain where all the matter in the universe came from. If you can't explain the appearance of matter from nothing, it follows that you can't deny the possibility of God the creator of the universe.

I await your explanation with anticipation.

No he shouldnt. If it all came from god explain how he created it then?

 

Magic wand?

 

 

[mikebike]

On 6/29/2021 at 10:09 PM, Sunmaster said:

Now, advanced meditation practitioners have been tested with EEG and their brain patterns recorded. A common person is not able to produce such brain waves at will. Ergo, the meditation practice is what enables the meditator to access these higher states of consciousness.

It is my understanding that these states can be reached/induced by methods other than meditation. In fact in persons who have no concept of meditation or its stated goals. Why is the "practice of meditation" so central to your "brain waves" arguement?

[mikebike]

On 6/29/2021 at 10:09 PM, Sunmaster said:

"God" is just a concept. If we could just say "That which is experienced at state 4 and 5", perhaps it wouldn't trigger you as much?

Again, "that which is experienced at state 4 and 5" are NOT unique to meditation, nor those questing the goals of said meditation. 

 

I do not understand why you are predicating your argument around meditation.

[mikebike]

On 6/30/2021 at 12:12 AM, Sunmaster said:

So, you're not willing to discuss spirituality

The thread IS about belief in god, not spirituality. They are very different things. Please don't make logical falicies. 

[mikebike]

On 6/30/2021 at 7:02 PM, Sunmaster said:

The researchers who work in the fields of neurosciences are the ones who attribute states of consciousness to mystical experiences.

This is where we know you are stretching your understanding to fit your pre-conceived notions. Mysticism is not unique "states of consciousness".

[mikebike]

On 7/1/2021 at 7:02 AM, Sunmaster said:

 

"This thread is about belief in GOD, god, gods. NOT science, research, states of consciousness or brain waves."

Mr. Skeptic7, June 2021

 

????

Ahh... you are also the type if debater who likes to take quotes out of context... moi aussi!!

[mikebike]

On 7/1/2021 at 9:30 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

Indeed.

Seems the thread is being inundated by latecomers that can't be bothered to read any of the past pages, but jump in regurgitating the same things posted many, many times before.

We've seen the back of many in the past 411 pages and no doubt, if we don't feed them, the latest skeptics will get bored and give up too.

 

We can only hope.

Why do we need to read the proceeding 411 pages? You are engaged in the same debate and talking points used ad infinitum. Nothing new here.

[mikebike]

On 7/1/2021 at 3:16 PM, Sunmaster said:

Despite the protests of some of our more obtuse posters, I'd like to further analyze the correlation between states of consciousness and mystical (spiritual or religious) experiences.

As we've seen, thanks to the regular practice of meditation (but not only), an advanced person can shift his awareness from the ordinary "waking sleep" (state 3, our usual waking state, Alpha and Beta brain waves) to the states of "Self-Transcendence" (state 4, Theta waves) and "Objective Consciousness (state 5, Delta waves). 
States 4 and 5 are entered at will and in full awareness of the meditator. Everybody experiences these wave patterns just before and during sleep, but we obviously don't have control over these processes.
These 2 states are the fertile ground for what has been called mystical experience. 

There are common characteristic traits that distinguish such experiences, whether they are experienced by Christians, Muslims, Hindus ...or even atheists (yes, atheists can indeed have mystical experiences!).

These common traits are:
1) The death of the ego. There is no longer an identification with your body or personality. The boundaries between what you perceive as "I" and the world vanish, leaving only perception or "being".
2) No time, no space. You go from perceiving time from moment-to-moment as a static individual, to perceiving it as a stream of eternal present moments.

3) Objective Reality. You experience a more profound reality that appears to be "more real" than anything experienced before. 

4) Gratitude. An immense sense of gratitude, awe and bliss overcomes you for this gift you've been given.

5) Life is seen as sacred. You develop a new sense of respect for the sacredness of life that allows you to be here.
6) You understand paradoxes. Going beyond duality enables you to gain new understanding. For example, "God is One and a trinity" or "To do by not-doing", suddenly make sense.
7) The Experience Is Indescribable. The magnitude of the experience is impossible to squeeze into words. Only parables and metaphors can be used to clumsily describe it.

8. The Experience Is Temporary. Eventually, you end up returning back to your habitual way of life, but the experience changes something deep inside.

9) The Experience Is Life-Changing. After experiencing such a state, suddenly death isn’t as scary as it used to be, and the beliefs or ambitions that you once held to be so important immediately lose their meaning. In fact, the mystical experience often awakens a thirst to try to bring as much of that experience back into our regular day-to-day lives as possible.

(loosely taken from https://lonerwolf.com/mystical-experience/)

 

But why are there so many different accounts of mystical experiences? Some people see angels, others Krishna, some encounter demons, others infinite Light...? How we perceive the ultimate reality is still clouded by our own belief system and temperament. It's like pure light shining through a prism. The cleared our prism is, the better and more directly we can perceive the pure light.

The Highest State of Consciousness has been given many different names throughout history. Some call it God (see, still on topic ???? )or Heaven, others Nirvana, Samadhi, The Tao, Brahman...ultimately they all describe the same thing.

 

Serious question: have you, personally, experienced this state?