Do you believe in God and why

Sunmaster · September 24, 2022

3 hours ago, Hummin said:

My impression is, when people do not understand science and the terms for science, some easily jump to alternative theories that in best case is ideas, and not anything that can be proved. A good mix with fantasy and visions after long term meditating, fasting, intake of different substances or a mix of some of mentioned or all together.

I have some difficulties understanding this paragraph...

So you're saying that people jump on 'alternative' belief systems (ie spiritual ones), because they have a limited understanding of science? ???? Seriously?

Have you meditated long term? Fasted? Taken any mind expanding substance?

It all comes down to what your deepest questions are in life. If they regard the best way to make an engine efficient, science has the answers. If they regard your place in the universe, would you still ask a scientist? Can you get any clear answers about who you are from science? I'm not talking about the physical body. Of course, if you believe that's all you are, then that last question will not even arise.
But some of us believe we are more than just flesh and bones, and we want to know how we fit into this grand play of life. Science will never ever be able to answer those questions, simply because it doesn't even recognize that part of our existence as real.

Fasting then, entheogenic plants and above all meditation are great tools, tested over millennia, for exploring that part of us that is being ignored by mainstream science (scientific consciousness research is still in its infancy).

So, to turn your statement around...My impression is that those people who have little to no understanding of their inner world, and no desire to remedy that shallowness, easily jump on scientific pseudo-explanations of how life works, conveniently leaving out the deep questions about the meaning of it all. After all, if scientists don't bother with this mumbo jumbo, why should you? Right? ????

AsianAtHeart · September 24, 2022

From the scientific standpoint, there is a good video available on YouTube that documents some of the current challenges that scientists are facing with respect to origins. It includes elements of the history of Darwinism, including some quotes from Darwin and others, and compares these theories with modern discoveries. The first part of the video goes into some specific scientific studies that any science lover will enjoy, and the latter part touches on the philosophy aspect, which I think will interest several of those posting here who seem to enjoy philosophical issues.

Enjoy!

...and let me know if you actually watched it what you think of it.

Hummin · September 24, 2022

53 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

I have some difficulties understanding this paragraph...

So you're saying that people jump on 'alternative' belief systems (ie spiritual ones), because they have a limited understanding of science? ???? Seriously?

Have you meditated long term? Fasted? Taken any mind expanding substance?

It all comes down to what your deepest questions are in life. If they regard the best way to make an engine efficient, science has the answers. If they regard your place in the universe, would you still ask a scientist? Can you get any clear answers about who you are from science? I'm not talking about the physical body. Of course, if you believe that's all you are, then that last question will not even arise.
But some of us believe we are more than just flesh and bones, and we want to know how we fit into this grand play of life. Science will never ever be able to answer those questions, simply because it doesn't even recognize that part of our existence as real.

Fasting then, entheogenic plants and above all meditation are great tools, tested over millennia, for exploring that part of us that is being ignored by mainstream science (scientific consciousness research is still in its infancy).

So, to turn your statement around...My impression is that those people who have little to no understanding of their inner world, and no desire to remedy that shallowness, easily jump on scientific pseudo-explanations of how life works, conveniently leaving out the deep questions about the meaning of it all. After all, if scientists don't bother with this mumbo jumbo, why should you? Right? ????

Most people do not understand science behind the biggest questions here in life, and Einsteins theories with more is still being studied and continues to be proved or tried failed. And my concern is people who laughing and constantly dismissing physics science as bull pie at the best. After my best understanding, if there is a godly force, there must be possible to prove it physically to, not only spiritually? I know there is studies trying to prove god, and also spiritually. I see my previous post was not as accurate it should have been, so my bad.

Still our own body and brain is fantastic tools you can meditate, fasting and many more things and experience wonderful things, Im aware of that as well which I tried to explain. The questions is, when we release and let loose our chemicals in our brain, is it spiritually reasons, or is it just chemicals manipulated to be released either by our self or by a teacher/coach. Thats where Im unsure why it happens, and why we are so easily manipulated. What is the reason behind it, and trust me, hours reading, self testing, experiences with coaches, I still not sure, but one thing is very clear, and it is for some people addictive. For some good and for some not so good and very much same as any stimulus you should have respect for.

Im open for both parts, spiritually forces, a god, random happenings, myself creating my own destiny in a complexed in a complexed where randomly happenings force we to make choices, rething, restart, and do it all over again. However Im not easily convinced and as said, and I have no fear dying without knowing and for me, the most important to succeed with, is to have a good life on this planet, and try to contribute with some positivity even some say Im a bit to stubborn (not so different from the one here calling me stubborn would I say) same same but still different.

Edited September 24, 2022 by Hummin

Sunmaster · September 24, 2022

12 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Most people do not understand science behind the biggest questions here in life, and Einsteins theories with more is still being studied and continues to be proved or tried failed. And my concern is people who laughing and constantly dismissing physics science as bull pie at the best. After my best understanding, if there is a godly force, there must be possible to prove it physically to, not only spiritually? I know there is studies trying to prove god, and also spiritually. I see my previous post was accurate, so my bad.

Still our own body and brain is fantastic tools you can meditate, fasting and many more things and experience wonderful things, Im aware of that as well which I tried to explain. The questions is, when we release and let loose our chemicals in our brain, is it spiritually reasons, or is it just chemicals manipulated to be released either by our self or by a teacher/coach. Thats where Im unsure why it happens, and why we are so easily manipulated. What is the reason behind it, and trust me, hours reading, self testing, experiences with coaches, I still not sure, but one thing is very clear, and it is for some people addictive. For some good and for some not so good and very much same as any stimulus you should have respect for.

Im open for both parts but not easily convinced and as said I have no fear dying without knowing and for me, the most important to succeed with, is to hav a good life on this planet, and try to contribute with some positivity even some say Im a bit to stubborn (not so different from the one here calling me stubborn would I say) same same but still different.

Einstein did not attempt at answering the big questions in life, he tried to solve the puzzle of the physical. He only went as far as acknowledging that a hidden power/consciousness was at work but that was it. After all he was primarily a scientist and talking about such things would not have been good for his reputation.

In any case, your question whether chemicals produce experiences, or experiences produce chemicals is an interesting one. I think both are true. We all know how even coffee, nicotine or sugar can change our mood, let alone how more powerful substances like psilocybin or LSD can expand our consciousness. In such cases, a substance/chemical is introduced into our system and the system becomes malleable, frees itself from its rigid structure and thus opens itself to a different/wider range of inputs.
The same can be achieved through meditation though. In that case, it's the practice of the meditator that affects the chemical balance of the body.
Both body and consciousness constantly interact with and are influenced by each other. They don't exist in closed systems.

25 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Im open for both parts but not easily convinced

I think that's a great attitude. Keeping an open mind doesn't mean you have to accept every wacky idea presented to you. In fact, forget what anyone tells you about life (their interpretation of it). You don't have to be "convinced" by others at all. No one has to, nor should be.
True knowledge comes when we let go of ideas, of structure, of the house of cards we've built during our life, of all the books, religions and whatnot.

When you talk about nature, I can feel the love you have for it. It resonates with my own feelings when I'm alone on a mountain for example. That love is true inspiration. It makes you be closer to the Divine than anything else.

Perhaps you're already a saint and you don't know it. ????

Hummin · September 24, 2022

4 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Perhaps you're already a saint and you don't know it. ????

I live happy not knowing, it could ruin my life and my total freedom in this life

Tippaporn · September 25, 2022

11 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

I have some difficulties understanding this paragraph...

So you're saying that people jump on 'alternative' belief systems (ie spiritual ones), because they have a limited understanding of science? ???? Seriously?

Have you meditated long term? Fasted? Taken any mind expanding substance?

It all comes down to what your deepest questions are in life. If they regard the best way to make an engine efficient, science has the answers. If they regard your place in the universe, would you still ask a scientist? Can you get any clear answers about who you are from science? I'm not talking about the physical body. Of course, if you believe that's all you are, then that last question will not even arise.
But some of us believe we are more than just flesh and bones, and we want to know how we fit into this grand play of life. Science will never ever be able to answer those questions, simply because it doesn't even recognize that part of our existence as real.

Fasting then, entheogenic plants and above all meditation are great tools, tested over millennia, for exploring that part of us that is being ignored by mainstream science (scientific consciousness research is still in its infancy).

So, to turn your statement around...My impression is that those people who have little to no understanding of their inner world, and no desire to remedy that shallowness, easily jump on scientific pseudo-explanations of how life works, conveniently leaving out the deep questions about the meaning of it all. After all, if scientists don't bother with this mumbo jumbo, why should you? Right? ????

Wow!!! What a beautiful answer in response to a statement made in sheer ignorance!! Can I pile on? :biggrin: You bet I will.

Again, thanks for a truly superb, insightful, and positively correct answer, Sunmaster. :jap: Listen up, Hummin. It would behoove you to actually listen for a change.

Tippaporn · September 25, 2022

10 hours ago, Hummin said:

I live happy not knowing, it could ruin my life and my total freedom in this life

And there you have it. Ignorance is bliss. Until the lights go out and you have no clue as to what to do to remedy the situation. Ignorance is bliss because . . . heaven knows that true knowledge will only f things up. You have to truly appreciate the irrationality of that statement . . . and have a boisterous and hearty laugh.

Tippaporn · September 25, 2022

10 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

Einstein did not attempt at answering the big questions in life, he tried to solve the puzzle of the physical. He only went as far as acknowledging that a hidden power/consciousness was at work but that was it. After all he was primarily a scientist and talking about such things would not have been good for his reputation.

In any case, your question whether chemicals produce experiences, or experiences produce chemicals is an interesting one. I think both are true. We all know how even coffee, nicotine or sugar can change our mood, let alone how more powerful substances like psilocybin or LSD can expand our consciousness. In such cases, a substance/chemical is introduced into our system and the system becomes malleable, frees itself from its rigid structure and thus opens itself to a different/wider range of inputs.
The same can be achieved through meditation though. In that case, it's the practice of the meditator that affects the chemical balance of the body.
Both body and consciousness constantly interact with and are influenced by each other. They don't exist in closed systems.

I think that's a great attitude. Keeping an open mind doesn't mean you have to accept every wacky idea presented to you. In fact, forget what anyone tells you about life (their interpretation of it). You don't have to be "convinced" by others at all. No one has to, nor should be.
True knowledge comes when we let go of ideas, of structure, of the house of cards we've built during our life, of all the books, religions and whatnot.

When you talk about nature, I can feel the love you have for it. It resonates with my own feelings when I'm alone on a mountain for example. That love is true inspiration. It makes you be closer to the Divine than anything else.

Perhaps you're already a saint and you don't know it. ????

Another superb answer, Sunmaster. Even Hummin liked it. :laugh: Is he starting to crack? :laugh:

Tippaporn · September 25, 2022

16 hours ago, Hummin said:

My impression is, when people do not understand science and the terms for science, some easily jump to alternative theories that in best case is ideas, and not anything that can be proved. A good mix with fantasy and visions after long term meditating, fasting, intake of different substances or a mix of some of mentioned or all together.

Now I promised to pile on but I have to start with that one paragraph

Why, Hummin, do so many people turn away from religion? Is it because the easily recognise the fallacies? The many contradictions? The faulty logic? Of coarse.

So those searching for answers to life and who once believed that religion had all of the answers now begin searching elsewhere. Many then turn to science as science does offer facts based on evidence, proofs and is backed up by solid logic. Science's answers can then be used quite practically to create numerous inventions for the benefit and convenience of mankind. How supremely wonderful!

But, as Sunmaster so wisely points out:

12 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

It all comes down to what your deepest questions are in life. If they regard the best way to make an engine efficient, science has the answers. If they regard your place in the universe, would you still ask a scientist? Can you get any clear answers about who you are from science?

Here are a few quotes from Seth which would serve to further elucidate and expound on Sunmaster's quite astute answer. He is referring to science with this opening statement. The underlined, bolded text is per Seth's request.

I should warn you first: if you have any aversions to learning you will loudly protest over having to read too much, or you'll excuse yourself by objecting to "copy & paste," or you'll come up with any other lame reason to not read . . . and then comment on what you've read. Or, as you've done in the past, you'll claim that it's "beyond" your understanding. Any reasons you offer as objections will not at all be true reasons but just excuses passed off as "credible" reasons.

So far in any of your investigations, you have been probing exterior

conditions, searching for their interior nature.
To make this clear: When you dissect an animal, for instance, you
are still dealing only with the "inside" of exterior reality, or with
another level of outsideness. (Pause.) In a manner of speaking, when
you probe the heavens with your instruments you are doing the same
thing. There is a difference between this and the "withinness" out of
which all matter springs. It is there that the blueprints for reality are

found. There are various ways of studying reality. Let us take a very
simple example.
Suppose a scientist found a first orange, and used every instrument
available to examine it, but refused to feel it, taste it, smell it,
or otherwise to become personally involved with it for fear of losing
scientific objectivity.
In sense terms he would learn little about an orange, though he
might be able to isolate its elements, predict where others might be
found, theorize about its environment - but the greater "withinness"
of the orange is not found any place inside of its skin either.
The seeds are the physical carriers of future oranges, but the blueprints
for that reality are what formed the seeds. In such dilemmas
you are always brought back to the question of which came first, and
begin another merry chase. Because you think in terms of consecutive
time, it seems that there must have been a first egg, or seed.1 The
blueprints for reality exist, however, in dimensions without such a
time sequence.
Your closest point to the withinness of which I speak is your own ·
consciousness, though you use it as a tool to examine the exterior
universe. But it is basically free of that reality, not confined to the
life-and-death saga, and at other levels deals with the blueprints for
its own physical existence.
In the entire gestalt from cellular to "self" consciousness, there is
a vast field of knowledge - much of it now "unconsciously" available
- used to maintain the body's integrity in space and time. With
the conscious mind as director, there is no reason why much of this
knowledge cannot become normally and naturally available. There
is, therefore, a quite valid, vital, real and vastly creative inner reality,
and an inward sequence of events from which your present universe
and life emerges. Any true scientist will ultimately have to learn to
enter that realm of reality. So-called objective approaches will only
work at all when you are dealing with so-called objective effects -
and your physicists are learning that even in that framework many
"facts" are facts only within certain frequencies, or under certain
conditions. You are left with "workable facts" that help you manipulate
in your own backyard, but such facts become prejudice when you
try to venture beyond your own cosmic neighborhood and find that
your preconceived, native ideas do not apply outside of their context.

Because of your attitudes, ideas do not seem as real to you as
objects, or as practical. Thoughts are not given the same validity as
rocks or trees or beer cans (two of which sat on the coffee tab/,e between us
at the moment) or automobiles. In your terms an automobile gets you
somewhere. You do not understand the great mobility of thought, nor
grasp its practical nature. You make your world, and in an important
manner your thoughts are indeed the immediate personal blueprints
for it. When you manipulate objects you feel efficient. The manipulation
of thoughts is far more practical. Here is a brief example.
( 10:36.) Your medical technology may help you "conquer" one disease
after another - some in fact caused by that same technology -
and you will feel very efficient as you do heart transplants, as you fight
one virus after another. But all of this will do nothing except to allow
people to die, perhaps, of other diseases still "unconquered." People
will die when they are ready to, following inner dictates and dynamics.
A person ready to die will, despite any medication. (Emphatically:)
A person who wants to live will seize upon the tiniest hope, and
respond. The dynamics of health have nothing to do with inoculations.
They reside in the consciousness of each being. In your terms
they are regulated by emotions, desires, and thoughts. A true doctor
cannot be scientifically objective. He cannot divorce himself from the
reality of his patient. Instead, usually, the doctor's words and very
methods literally separate the patient from himself or herself. The
malady is seen almost as a thing apart from the patient's person -
but thrust upon it - over which the patient has little control.
The condition is analyzed, the blood is sampled. It becomes "a
blood sample" to the doctor. The patient may silently shout out,
''That is not just a blood sample - it is my blood you are taking." But
he [or she] is discouraged from identifying with the blood of his
physical being, so that even his own blood seems alien.
The blueprints for reality: In greater terms they reside within
you. In private terms they are part of your being.

Tippaporn · September 25, 2022

Continued . . .

17 hours ago, Hummin said:

My impression is, when people do not understand science and the terms for science, some easily jump to alternative theories that in best case is ideas, and not anything that can be proved. A good mix with fantasy and visions after long term meditating, fasting, intake of different substances or a mix of some of mentioned or all together.

It's not at all a question of "not understanding science," Hummin. Rather, just as some see the failings of religion others see the failings of religion and science. Again, as Sunmaster pointed and as Seth makes clear science, in it's current state, can only deal with objective reality. It is not yet equipped to deal with subjective, or inner reality and therefore is incapable of providing any true answers to explain that portion of our reality.

And so, some of us . . . like me . . . like Sunmaster . . . look elsewhere for sources and answers which are capable of explaining that portion of reality to us. I would bet a dollar to a donut that you do not believe those sources exist.

Now I've provided an example which shows the ineffectiveness of the "methodology of science" to arrive at a conclusion as to whether or not consciousness, or we, create our own reality. I've again asked @VincentRJas recently as yesterday point blank to give his opinion or comment since he more than anyone keeps insisting that my problem is that I so obviously don't understand the "methodology of science."

Yet no matter who I ask, or how many times I ask it, not a single science oriented type here has addressed it. They avoid doing so as if the question were the plague. And I know that @VincentRJhas read that last request since I posted it yet he still ignores answering the question and continues to remain silent on it. Why? Because he, and all of the other science types here who are so thoroughly convinced that the "methodology of science" is capable of providing all answers to existence would have to admit that one of their most cherished beliefs, which they held to be true in the absolute, must now reconcile the fact that they've been wrong.

Tippaporn · September 25, 2022

12 hours ago, Hummin said:

And my concern is people who laughing and constantly dismissing physics science as bull pie at the best.

Again, science in it's current practice and it's current ideology can never provide the answers to who and what we are, and ultimately the totality of our reality. Those answers must be found within and not without. And again, I, and I'll be so bold as to also speak for Sunmaster, do not at all dismiss the valid and true answers science has come up with. I don't deny gravity. I don't deny heliocentricity.. I don't deny thermal expansion. I don't deny inertia. I don't deny electromagnetic induction. And so much more. Remember, too, that my line of work requires that I adhere to certain scientific principles. So to say that I dismiss science is the "bull pie" you allege others are guilty of.

Just because my ideas are more expansive and include ideas science is unwilling and incapable of dealing with does not infer that I dismiss science. And just because I critise science does not infer that I am anti science. Yet again and again you make these inferences and baseless allegations which do not exist and insist that they do.

Own up, Hummin.

itsari · September 25, 2022

Nope

Tippaporn · September 25, 2022

13 hours ago, Hummin said:

After my best understanding, if there is a godly force, there must be possible to prove it physically to, not only spiritually?

Don't look for a godly force. Certainly not one as described by religion. Look for the God within you. The spiritual is not physical. Therefore you cannot prove it's existence physically. Give it up.

Tippaporn · September 25, 2022

13 hours ago, Hummin said:

Still our own body and brain is fantastic tools you can meditate, fasting and many more things and experience wonderful things, Im aware of that as well which I tried to explain. The questions is, when we release and let loose our chemicals in our brain, is it spiritually reasons, or is it just chemicals manipulated to be released either by our self or by a teacher/coach. Thats where Im unsure why it happens, and why we are so easily manipulated. What is the reason behind it, and trust me, hours reading, self testing, experiences with coaches, I still not sure, but one thing is very clear, and it is for some people addictive. For some good and for some not so good and very much same as any stimulus you should have respect for.

Im open for both parts, spiritually forces, a god, random happenings, myself creating my own destiny in a complexed in a complexed where randomly happenings force we to make choices, rething, restart, and do it all over again. However Im not easily convinced and as said, and I have no fear dying without knowing and for me, the most important to succeed with, is to have a good life on this planet, and try to contribute with some positivity even some say Im a bit to stubborn (not so different from the one here calling me stubborn would I say) same same but still different.

Learn. But in order to learn you must be open to learning. Whatever confusion you feel now will dissipate quickly and effortlessly with the acquirement of knowledge. But that acquirement does take effort. Not nearly as much as some may suppose.

Tippaporn · September 25, 2022

19 hours ago, cleopatra2 said:

Industrial Melanism would appear to disprove that evolution works in a slow and incremental fashion.

It's really a point of non contention with me. Darwin's theory completely ignores the role of subjective reality. Hell, it ignores subjective reality altogether. A fatal mistake.

“Now, if you had all been really paying attention to what I have been saying for some time about the simultaneous nature of time and existence, then you would have known that the theory of evolution is as beautiful a tale as the theory of biblical creation. Both are quite handy, and both are methods of telling stories, and both might seem to agree within their own systems, and yet, in larger respects they cannot be realities…. No — no form of matter, however potent, will be self-evolved into consciousness, no matter what other bits of matter are added to it. Without the consciousness, the matter would not be there in the universe, floating around, waiting for another component to give it reality, consciousness, existence, or song."
—SS Part Two: Chapter 20: Session 582, April 19, 1971

All forms of life evolving from a single form which itself was created by random dead matter coming together under the proper conditions and sparked to life (no explanation provided for what that spark was) is a scientific fairy tale.

Hummin · September 25, 2022

5 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

And there you have it. Ignorance is bliss. Until the lights go out and you have no clue as to what to do to remedy the situation. Ignorance is bliss because . . . heaven knows that true knowledge will only f things up. You have to truly appreciate the irrationality of that statement . . . and have a boisterous and hearty laugh.

To me Ignorance is something else, either you make up your mind on a very limited solution, and dismissing everyone else because you know the truth.

Ignorance is not to share experiences and ask critical questions.

Being curious is not ignorance so I am not really offended because I do put in some interest in what you write as well do a little reading as well double checking your facts. And you know it is hard to have a discussion with anyone who give alot of information that is hard to absorb when it is mostly based on other peoples experiences where you do not experience the same, because it is based only on personal experiences. I know if I want, I can convince myself to se, feel, experience something, but therefor my questions where this experience originated from. Wishful thinking and practicing, manipulated by myself, influenced by others, chemicals, everything in a combination, environment or the real thing.

You know if you ar christian, you most likely from a christian country, or new age more or less from Usa or living in a place, traveling to a place where they cultivate alternative beliefs and spiritually.

Im in no rush to know the truth, because truth will finely appear in time if there is any truths! And that comforts me as well Sunmaster recognize my love for nature and the freedom the nature gives me on the natures own premises.

I cant see my practice hurt me or anyone else, and neither do I make false prophecies.

My next question i, why do some people who believe they have or know the truth need to convince other people by using so much energy and sometimes threats about consequences when they also proclaim their faith is personal?

Last Im more curious out of being bored, and like to read history, science, religion, culture differences, about how societies evolved with time and how war have been moving religion back and forth with borders constantly changing. The most interesting obvious proof I have found, is how Christianity is more like Buddhism than Judaism in many specters of practicing ethical questions, but with a base in Judaism as the nature of where it started as a new religion.

A godly force is everything @tippaporn if there is a god, but Im not fixated on religious texts when it comes a god or energy, because I see it whit my eyes everyday even with eyes shut I see and feel, and taste of course in the reality a god would have given me the ability to see, learn and experience something.

Sometimes people do not see the forrest because of the trees right? It is here right here right now! If that is Ignorance, so let it be, Im for now happy with my conclusion because we have been given a life to live and make experiences in this world, not in all other places, and Im very much needed by other people right here right now, not later ☺️

At last I do enjoy the reading here, and I do like the way @Sunmaster sharing his experiences and I respect him for his way to point out my mistakes and the way he do it. But as said impossible to answer all your questions, or to read and understand how you want me to. You have to respect that when you answering other people in such a wide open theme as this have become.

Hummin · September 25, 2022

6 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

Just because my ideas are more expansive and include ideas science is unwilling and incapable of dealing with does not infer that I dismiss science. And just because I critise science does not infer that I am anti science. Yet again and again you make these inferences and baseless allegations which do not exist and insist that they do.

Own up, Hummin.

Just remember, everything I write is not pointed directly at you even I might a point out of it.

If I own somebody, It is myself and Im not here to compete with anybody.

cleopatra2 · September 25, 2022

7 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

It's really a point of non contention with me. Darwin's theory completely ignores the role of subjective reality. Hell, it ignores subjective reality altogether. A fatal mistake.

“Now, if you had all been really paying attention to what I have been saying for some time about the simultaneous nature of time and existence, then you would have known that the theory of evolution is as beautiful a tale as the theory of biblical creation. Both are quite handy, and both are methods of telling stories, and both might seem to agree within their own systems, and yet, in larger respects they cannot be realities…. No — no form of matter, however potent, will be self-evolved into consciousness, no matter what other bits of matter are added to it. Without the consciousness, the matter would not be there in the universe, floating around, waiting for another component to give it reality, consciousness, existence, or song."
—SS Part Two: Chapter 20: Session 582, April 19, 1971

All forms of life evolving from a single form which itself was created by random dead matter coming together under the proper conditions and sparked to life (no explanation provided for what that spark was) is a scientific fairy tale.

I was not contending subject reality , mainly because i am unsure what the term subject reality actually means. The closest i can think of , but possibly mistaken is the information paradox and the universe hologram theorem

The Biblical Creation and Evolution .for me cannot be considered the same. The story of Creation as told in Genesis is merely a retelling of other religions myths that preceded Christianity. In the creation stories there is no description of how the plan is formed. God just created by willing things into existence , Genesis chapter 1 . Where in chapter 2 the ability to will existence is gone and God requires the earth to form living life.

Evolution provides a framework of how the process works , this allows questions to be asked and independently answered .The same cannot be truly said of Biblical creation.

Industrial Melanism demonstrates natural selection , the investigation of modern genetics and the ability or lack of animals to synthesize vitamin C has provided support for Evolution theory.

The argument you put forward for conscience is circular illogical. If no matter can evolve into conscience . Then conscience cannot exist at the beginning.

However I would ask you to demonstrate that matter cannot develop into conscience.

thaibeachlovers · September 25, 2022

On 9/24/2022 at 9:34 PM, cleopatra2 said:

Industrial Melanism would appear to disprove that evolution works in a slow and incremental fashion.

Pigmentation is a different thing than such as evolution from pre humans to humans.

Easily explained as the only ones that survived to breed were darker ones.

Sunmaster · September 25, 2022

9 hours ago, cleopatra2 said:

The argument you put forward for conscience is circular illogical. If no matter can evolve into conscience . Then conscience cannot exist at the beginning.

However I would ask you to demonstrate that matter cannot develop into conscience.

This is a complicated metaphysical question.
All the ancient wisdom traditions speak of a universal consciousness, the ground of all Being, All-That-Is, also known as "God"....which is eternal, outside of time and space, always present, that which always IS, that which needs no creator and is the creator of all.

How did they come to this conclusion?
Our consciousness is not a fixed thing. It can be shifted and expanded. There are many different approaches on how to achieve this (I have some experience with some of them). Those who dedicate their lives to this goal (or some who are very "lucky" = blessed) can go very far into expanding their consciousness. So far so, that their individual consciousness (self) merges with the universal consciousness (SELF), thus literally becoming ONE with it. Often it's a temporary state (peak experience or awakening), occasionally it's irreversible (enlightenment). They are called wise men, sages, saints, Buddhas if they share their wisdom....or they can be your next door neighbor if they prefer to keep it to themselves.

Ramana Maharshi answered a question from a visitor.
"How should we treat others?"
"There are no others"

What he meant was that ultimately, when the individual self becomes one with the SELF, it realizes that the SELF is all there is....there are no others (or anything) beyond the SELF. It's a matter of perspective.

My drawing...

9 hours ago, cleopatra2 said:

However I would ask you to demonstrate that matter cannot develop into conscience.

Matter (the body) is the vehicle consciousness (not conscience) uses to play the grand game of creation.
The way I understand it, is that everything is infused with consciousness, from the tiniest of particles to the the vastness of the universe.
If you're interested in the subject, I suggest looking up the info online. It's out there and has been for a very long time.

Edited September 25, 2022 by Sunmaster

Sunmaster · September 25, 2022

Actually, I found some of my old posts (2019) while searching for that picture ^^. I think they're relevant to the question asked, so I'll post them again...

----------------------------------------------------

I had some free time on my hands and since I'm a visual kind of learner, I thought others might also benefit from a visual aid.

The first pic I drew shows four individuals, from very different backgrounds and generally as different as they can be regarding age, sex, education etc.

The one thing they have in common, is the urge to look within and find out more about themselves. One might start with psychology books, another with meditation, another with prayer, one might go for shamanic experiences....whatever works. The important thing is that they take the first step to discover their inner worlds.

The saying goes: you can only know others if you know yourself.

In the second picture you can see these 4 people after some time practicing their respective paths. Some may have extinguished one way and switched to a more effective path, others may have intensified and deepened their initial path...again, it doesn't matter as long as it works.
The 4 guys have grown and expanded their knowledge of who they really are. By doing so they came to realize that others are not that different from themselves and the differences are just superficial ripples on an otherwise still ocean.

Practice make perfect.

The 3rd picture shows the natural evolution of their paths. They started out as small separate egos, but by exploring the inner realms of their being, they've grown and identified with their higher self. They also realized that their individual self is in reality not separated from other selfs and that ultimately, they are all fused together in one big SELF.
On this level, there is no separation, there are no superficial ripples that distort the view.

The most important thing of these 3 pics is to realize that we are like in pic3 from the very beginning. There is no point in our lives where we are not connected to each other. The only difference is the amount of awareness we have of that state.
Luckily for us, we have full control over how much awareness we can have in/of our lives. Some people prefer not to explore this part and that's fine too. Personally though, I'm too curious to just ignore it.

AsianAtHeart · September 25, 2022

19 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Actually, I found some of my old posts (2019) while searching for that picture ^^. I think they're relevant to the question asked, so I'll post them again...

----------------------------------------------------

I had some free time on my hands and since I'm a visual kind of learner, I thought others might also benefit from a visual aid.

The first pic I drew shows four individuals, from very different backgrounds and generally as different as they can be regarding age, sex, education etc.

The one thing they have in common, is the urge to look within and find out more about themselves. One might start with psychology books, another with meditation, another with prayer, one might go for shamanic experiences....whatever works. The important thing is that they take the first step to discover their inner worlds.

The saying goes: you can only know others if you know yourself.

In the second picture you can see these 4 people after some time practicing their respective paths. Some may have extinguished one way and switched to a more effective path, others may have intensified and deepened their initial path...again, it doesn't matter as long as it works.
The 4 guys have grown and expanded their knowledge of who they really are. By doing so they came to realize that others are not that different from themselves and the differences are just superficial ripples on an otherwise still ocean.

Practice make perfect.

The 3rd picture shows the natural evolution of their paths. They started out as small separate egos, but by exploring the inner realms of their being, they've grown and identified with their higher self. They also realized that their individual self is in reality not separated from other selfs and that ultimately, they are all fused together in one big SELF.
On this level, there is no separation, there are no superficial ripples that distort the view.

The most important thing of these 3 pics is to realize that we are like in pic3 from the very beginning. There is no point in our lives where we are not connected to each other. The only difference is the amount of awareness we have of that state.
Luckily for us, we have full control over how much awareness we can have in/of our lives. Some people prefer not to explore this part and that's fine too. Personally though, I'm too curious to just ignore it.

There's a word for those who focus on themselves. It has nothing to do with finding or being God. It's called "narcissism."

mauGR1 · September 25, 2022

22 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

There's a word for those who focus on themselves. It has nothing to do with finding or being God. It's called "narcissism."

Aren't we all a bit narcissistic?

Probably, the more narcissistic, the less likely to admit it.

Focus on oneself in order to become a better being is not a sin imho.

AsianAtHeart · September 26, 2022

23 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Aren't we all a bit narcissistic?

Probably, the more narcissistic, the less likely to admit it.

Focus on oneself in order to become a better being is not a sin imho.

Trying to help yourself is like trying to lift yourself by your bootstraps. It can never hope to succeed.

We are all caught in the trap of sin. There is no such thing as self-help to get out of it. If we do not have God's help, we are lost. The best we can do to avail ourselves of the help we need is to seek God. Looking into the mess we have within ourselves will only keep us in the mess.

By beholding we are changed. Look at yourself and become like yourself? Circular.

I want to behold God's character, and become as much unlike my present self as possible.

mauGR1 · September 26, 2022

39 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

Trying to help yourself is like trying to lift yourself by your bootstraps. It can never hope to succeed.

We are all caught in the trap of sin. There is no such thing as self-help to get out of it. If we do not have God's help, we are lost. The best we can do to avail ourselves of the help we need is to seek God. Looking into the mess we have within ourselves will only keep us in the mess.

By beholding we are changed. Look at yourself and become like yourself? Circular.

I want to behold God's character, and become as much unlike my present self as possible.

I can understand your words, but we are all different, and we have different phases along the journey.

It's difficult for everyone to get through the many rivers. And the harder enemy is fear.

Don't forget that God's already part of yourself, because everything is God.

Btw, i asked few posts above about the imminent apocalypse.. perhaps you think it's better not to talk about?

Edited September 26, 2022 by mauGR1

AsianAtHeart · September 26, 2022

2 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Don't forget that God's already part of yourself, because everything is God.

With all due respect, that is patently false. It's called pantheism, and is closely related to panentheism.

God is not the universe, and the creatures that He has made are not God. He did not create Himself.

God made me, but I am not God. If I made a computer, I would not be the computer. Simple. God and His creation are separate entities.

If God could or had created Himself, we're back full circle to circular reasoning--which can never hope to guide us out of the desert wasteland we find ourselves in seeking for truth. It's like a dog chasing its tail.

No, everything is not God. To believe so is to accept that one should worship every object, every creature, including every human--even oneself.

I know better, and everyone should be able to think clearly enough to realize that this cannot be the reality.

2 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Btw, i asked few posts above about the imminent apocalypse.. perhaps you think it's better not to talk about?

I'm sorry, I must have missed it. I haven't been able to read all the posts, especially not the back-and-forth that seemed to be between others having nothing to do with my contributions to this discussion. Tag me or respond to me and I will be more likely to see it. (I don't see any post of yours on this page about the apocalypse...how far back was it?)

mauGR1 · September 26, 2022

I'm sorry, I must have missed it. I haven't been able to read all the posts, especially not the back-and-forth that seemed to be between others having nothing to do with my contributions to this discussion. Tag me or respond to me and I will be more likely to see it. (I don't see any post of yours on this page about the apocalypse...how far back was it?)

@AsianAtHeart , a few days ago, i think. Never mind.

btw, you can call me 'pantheist' , I'm ok with that.

Animism, polytheism, are ok for me, like buddhism or christianity. I take the best, and sometimes the worst, from many ideas.

There are many ways to Rome.

Tippaporn · September 26, 2022

18 hours ago, Hummin said:

To me Ignorance is something else, either you make up your mind on a very limited solution, and dismissing everyone else because you know the truth.

Ignorance is simply, per it's definition, lack of knowledge, understanding, or information about something. By it's strict definition it is non judgemental. People have, though, attached judgement to it and so to say someone is ignorant is then usually taken as insult. I use the term per it's definition and attach no judgement to the word. I just wanted to make clear what I mean when I use the term so that you don't feel insulted by it.

Now the question is, how many of your "truths" are actual truths and how many are beliefs which you accept as conditions of reality rather than beliefs about reality? And which therefore lead you to believe they are immutable truths?

Take, for instance, the belief in abundance and prosperity and it's opposite. Each is an idea. Each exists in subjective reality. The idea which an individual focuses on predominantly becomes a belief which then accumulates enough energy to make that subjective belief physically manifest as their lived experience. So those who believe abundance and prosperity experience just that. Those believing it's opposite experience just that. A wealthy individual lives the "truth" of their belief. A poor individual does likewise. Both a wealthy state and an impoverished one are both true.

Consider these statements from Seth taken from The Nature Of The Psyche: It's Human Expression:

Certainly for the more than the hundredth time I say, "Your beliefs form your reality," and this means that your beliefs structure the events you know.

Such experience then convinces you more thoroughly of the reality you perceive until a vicious circle is formed, in which all events mirror beliefs so perfectly that no leeway seems to appear between the two.

What Seth is pointing out here is that since physical reality is a three dimensional faithful product and mirror of your beliefs then the longer you believe something to be true the more it is manifested in terms of lived experience. The more it's experience reflects your belief the more convincing your belief becomes as being the "truth." It truly becomes a viscous circle and the individual is blind as to what's really going on.

18 hours ago, Hummin said:

Ignorance is not to share experiences and ask critical questions.

I've always said that the greatest mistake people make is to never examine their beliefs. They belief in this, that, and the other as being true. Once a belief is believed to be true - a condition of reality - they stop questioning and never look back. They never ask themselves whether or not it is instead simply a belief about reality.

21 hours ago, Hummin said:

Being curious is not ignorance so I am not really offended because I do put in some interest in what you write as well do a little reading as well double checking your facts.

You create your own reality. That is my fact. Where would you go to double check that? There is only one place you can go to do that. Your inner self. You certainly are not going to find confirmation on any science oriented site.

21 hours ago, Hummin said:

And you know it is hard to have a discussion with anyone who give alot of information that is hard to absorb when it is mostly based on other peoples experiences where you do not experience the same, because it is based only on personal experiences.

Complex information is initially difficult to absorb. I remember my first experience on the first computer I had bought. The feeling of absolute and devastating dejection as I had no clue what to do. You learn.

As to your impression that this information is based mostly, or only, on the experience of people then that impression is dead wrong. While we are all as unique as snowflakes there exist too many commonalities to list. When providing personal experience as an example to get a point across then the related personal experience is used knowing that another has similar experiences. It's called creating a bridge. One can, using that method, more easily bridge the gap of understanding.

21 hours ago, Hummin said:

I know if I want, I can convince myself to se, feel, experience something, but therefor my questions where this experience originated from.

All of your experience originates from your subjective reality. It is then translated to physical reality. No different, in a sense, that translating one language to another. Most people examine the outside of experience, or the translated one - physical reality. Few examine the inside, which is the originator of all reality - subjective reality. I've told you before, more than once, to examine your subjective reality. That's where the real answers are found.

21 hours ago, Hummin said:

Wishful thinking and practicing, manipulated by myself, influenced by others, chemicals, everything in a combination, environment or the real thing.

You have to admit that you've been taught to believe in endless ideas since birth as being true. Following are two beliefs which most likely came via religion or science or both since both are proponents of these beliefs. "No one can know the truth," is one of them. "You cannot trust yourself," is another. Both ideas are 100% false.

Now since you can't trust yourself and since you cannot know then how in the hell can you expect to know anything with certainty? Both of those beliefs will make it almost impossible for anyone looking for answers to find them. And even when they do they can never fully trust that the answers they've found are true.

You're quite capable of recognising the difference between wishful thinking and the real thing, Hummin.

This post has become long enough and my time here is cut short today. I'd like to continue addressing the rest of your very interesting and excellent post later, Hummin.

Hummin · September 26, 2022

5 hours ago, AsianAtHeart said:

Trying to help yourself is like trying to lift yourself by your bootstraps. It can never hope to succeed.

We are all caught in the trap of sin. There is no such thing as self-help to get out of it. If we do not have God's help, we are lost. The best we can do to avail ourselves of the help we need is to seek God. Looking into the mess we have within ourselves will only keep us in the mess.

By beholding we are changed. Look at yourself and become like yourself? Circular.

I want to behold God's character, and become as much unlike my present self as possible.

Voting for a promising politician, do not mean he actually will help you when he get elected! Words and texts are empty without action. What many religions is promising is exactly that, just texts and words, and the worst is, you are the one to be blamed if you do not succeed, because you are a sinner who did not deserve any before you manage to get through all loopholes that leads to gods good will and blessing.

Generations of Guilt is what we are, and constantly creating conflicts within our self and with others to please a narcissistic caracter of a god. Generally speaking about believers and different religions and not specific aimed at you.

Hummin · September 26, 2022

27 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

Ignorance is simply, per it's definition, lack of knowledge, understanding, or information about something. By it's strict definition it is non judgemental. People have, though, attached judgement to it and so to say someone is ignorant is then usually taken as insult. I use the term per it's definition and attach no judgement to the word. I just wanted to make clear what I mean when I use the term so that you don't feel insulted by it.

Now the question is, how many of your "truths" are actual truths and how many are beliefs which you accept as conditions of reality rather than beliefs about reality? And which therefore lead you to believe they are immutable truths?

Take, for instance, the belief in abundance and prosperity and it's opposite. Each is an idea. Each exists in subjective reality. The idea which an individual focuses on predominantly becomes a belief which then accumulates enough energy to make that subjective belief physically manifest as their lived experience. So those who believe abundance and prosperity experience just that. Those believing it's opposite experience just that. A wealthy individual lives the "truth" of their belief. A poor individual does likewise. Both a wealthy state and an impoverished one are both true.

Consider these statements from Seth taken from The Nature Of The Psyche: It's Human Expression:

Certainly for the more than the hundredth time I say, "Your beliefs form your reality," and this means that your beliefs structure the events you know.

Such experience then convinces you more thoroughly of the reality you perceive until a vicious circle is formed, in which all events mirror beliefs so perfectly that no leeway seems to appear between the two.

What Seth is pointing out here is that since physical reality is a three dimensional faithful product and mirror of your beliefs then the longer you believe something to be true the more it is manifested in terms of lived experience. The more it's experience reflects your belief the more convincing your belief becomes as being the "truth." It truly becomes a viscous circle and the individual is blind as to what's really going on.

I've always said that the greatest mistake people make is to never examine their beliefs. They belief in this, that, and the other as being true. Once a belief is believed to be true - a condition of reality - they stop questioning and never look back. They never ask themselves whether or not it is instead simply a belief about reality.

You create your own reality. That is my fact. Where would you go to double check that? There is only one place you can go to do that. Your inner self. You certainly are not going to find confirmation on any science oriented site.

Complex information is initially difficult to absorb. I remember my first experience on the first computer I had bought. The feeling of absolute and devastating dejection as I had no clue what to do. You learn.

As to your impression that this information is based mostly, or only, on the experience of people then that impression is dead wrong. While we are all as unique as snowflakes there exist too many commonalities to list. When providing personal experience as an example to get a point across then the related personal experience is used knowing that another has similar experiences. It's called creating a bridge. One can, using that method, more easily bridge the gap of understanding.

All of your experience originates from your subjective reality. It is then translated to physical reality. No different, in a sense, that translating one language to another. Most people examine the outside of experience, or the translated one - physical reality. Few examine the inside, which is the originator of all reality - subjective reality. I've told you before, more than once, to examine your subjective reality. That's where the real answers are found.

You have to admit that you've been taught to believe in endless ideas since birth as being true. Following are two beliefs which most likely came via religion or science or both since both are proponents of these beliefs. "No one can know the truth," is one of them. "You cannot trust yourself," is another. Both ideas are 100% false.

Now since you can't trust yourself and since you cannot know then how in the hell can you expect to know anything with certainty? Both of those beliefs will make it almost impossible for anyone looking for answers to find them. And even when they do they can never fully trust that the answers they've found are true.

You're quite capable of recognising the difference between wishful thinking and the real thing, Hummin.

This post has become long enough and my time here is cut short today. I'd like to continue addressing the rest of your very interesting and excellent post later, Hummin.

Wow, where to start? It seems everything you write and what you think, fall back on yourself and your conviction and thought process like a boomerang. You are so confident, so convinced about your own reality and your own experiences and try to make me doubt my own reality as I see it and as I experience it.

If what you really mean to say is true, Im doing good, Im perfectly fine where I am searching my reality inside as outside in the nature creating harmony for my self and the people around me. I actually do what I am supposed to do!

Thank you, you are a true blessing ????

Edited September 26, 2022 by Hummin

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