Germany designates BDS Israel boycott movement as anti-Semitic

[Jingthing]

There is another factor to this. Thousands of years of antisemitism that contributed to the development of the political movement of Zionism -- seeing the need for a land of self determination for the Jewish people. What was part of that history? Trying to restrict Jews to certain limited professions. Movements to not buy from Jews. From a Jewish POV for many Jews anyway, BDS is painfully close to a don't buy from Jews message. In other words, hateful. Protest Israeli government policies, that's well deserved. BDS is not the answer. 

[JCauto]

7 hours ago, Cereal said:

This is a total strawman argument. The poster is talking about 1 specific thing and you bring in several issues that are not related to the point.

Perhaps you're not aware of what a strawman argument is.

 

The issue is whether the BDS Movement is inherently Anti-Semitic, seeing that Germany has declared them as such. Those who believe it is are saying, among other arguments, "why are you specifically targeting Israel but not other countries who also engage in similar or worse behaviour?" That is on topic because it questions whether there are universal standards being applied in this case or whether there are higher or different standards for Israel. If there are, then there should be a really good reason for that which makes it clear why Israel gets legitimately targeted whereas others, such as China or Saudi Arabia, do not. If there aren't particularly compelling reasons, then one should indeed be more circumspect given the historical prejudice against Jews and the similar campaigns that have been used against Jews in the past. 

 

It is not a black and white answer as BDS is not a unified or monolithic organization nor are their supporters as ably pointed out by Morch. But it must be said that there's a lot of latent (and active) Anti-Semitism in the world - the result of a longstanding and effective effort by those promoting Anti-Semitism for centuries - and it's clearly also on the rise in the hostile and divisive political and social climate of the present day.  This makes it easier for people to bypass their normal criteria and rush to judgement. And it would not surprise anyone with even a passing knowledge of statistics and sociology to discover that the membership of BDS (if there is such a thing) would correlate much more strongly with both latent and virulent Anti-Semitism as it explicitly targets the only Jewish nation on earth. 

[dexterm]

I am appalled that Germany, noted for its liberal views, should attack a non violent protest movement that targets a racist supremacist apartheid regime. It has worked in the past and will ultimately do so again, especially when countries adopt the same principle in the form of sanctions. Germany will find itself on the wrong side of history.

 

Boycott is one a the few ways one can effectively and peacefully demonstrate one's disgust at the unjust way Israel treats Palestinians.

 

No-one in the thread has yet mentioned a single instance of anti-semitism that BDS supposedly promotes.

[sanemax]

11 minutes ago, dexterm said:

I am appalled that Germany, noted for its liberal views, should attack........................

Stop right there , "attack" means : Verb  "take aggressive action against (a place or enemy forces) with weapons or armed force, typically in a battle or war."

 

Noun : "an aggressive and violent action against a person or place"

 

   No "attack" has taken place  , the German Gov passed a motion in Parliament , your use of the word "attack" just doesnt fit or make sense . 

[Jingthing]

Stating (incorrectly) that Israel is a "racist supremacist apartheid regime" can be considered to be anti semetic , because the Israeli nation is made up people from various races and not one race rules the others and Israel doesnt have "apartheid" 
   

I agree the rhetoric you cited is extremely inflammatory. No chance for any rational dialogue with people spouting such toxic stuff.

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[dexterm]

20 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Stating (incorrectly) that Israel is a "racist supremacist apartheid regime" can be considered to be anti semetic , because the Israeli nation is made up people from various races and not one race rules the others and Israel doesnt have "apartheid" 

   

I think  you had better run that past the Israeli Prime Minister who recently said

"Israel is not a state of all its citizens. According to the Nation-State Law that we passed, Israel is the nation-state of the Jewish People - and them alone. "

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israel-is-the-nation-state-of-jews-alone-netanyahu-responds-to-tv-star-who-said-arabs-are-equal-citizens-1.7003348

 

I wonder what the German parliament had a say about that. 
BDS is one of the few avenues the ordinary citizen world wide has to voice objection to the racist supremacist apartheid regime in a non violent way.

[stevenl]

12 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I agree the rhetoric you cited is extremely inflammatory. No chance for any rational dialogue with people spouting such toxic stuff.

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Even if I were to agree, that does not make his statements anti-Semitic as claimed. 

[dexterm]

16 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I agree the rhetoric you cited is extremely inflammatory. No chance for any rational dialogue with people spouting such toxic stuff.

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I think you regard toxic is any criticism of Israel.

 

So how toxic do you regard Netanyahu's statement or Israel's treatment of Palestinians inside Israel..could give you many instances of apartheid there, in the Occupied Territories overt apartheid, and Israel's refusal to allow any Palestinians from the diaspora to marry or be reunited with their families.

 

You call it maintaining the demographics balance in the Jewish State of Israel...I call it apartheid.

 

And BDS is one of the few peaceful ways that the global community can rectify that injustice.

[laspalmas]

In the XXI century, anti-Semite is not the one who does not like Jews
but the one that the Jews do not like !

The Americans recently adopted the Law( HR 672 )to combat European

anti-Semitism. The law aims to shut the mouths of critics of Israeli

crimes and the Israeli neo-fascist state.

[Jingthing]

Even if I were to agree, that does not make his statements anti-Semitic as claimed. 

I didn't post on that question either way but I agree that BDS is an antisemitic movement.

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[dexterm]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

I didn't post on that question either way but I agree that BDS is an antisemitic movement.

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..and yet still not a single shred of evidence in this thread about anything BDS has said or done that is anti-semitic.

 

Jump up and down often enough, yell "anti semitic" loudly enough, get German politicians to parrot your mantras and hope some of the mud sticks.

 

Pure McCarthyism.

 

Many on this forum suffer from PEP...Progressive Except Palestine.

[Jingthing]

In the XXI century, anti-Semite is not the one who does not like Jews
but the one that the Jews do not like !

The Americans recently adopted the Law( HR 672 )to combat European
anti-Semitism. The law aims to shut the mouths of critics of Israeli
crimes and the Israeli neo-fascist state.

A good example of why Israel needed to exist.

The Jewish global conspiracy theories exist whether Jews have the power of a nation state or not.

Better to have the state.

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[dexterm]

32 minutes ago, laspalmas said:

In the XXI century, anti-Semite is not the one who does not like Jews
but the one that the Jews do not like !

The Americans recently adopted the Law( HR 672 )to combat European

anti-Semitism. The law aims to shut the mouths of critics of Israeli

crimes and the Israeli neo-fascist state.

I agree with the second part of your post. But don't like the use of the blanket anti semitic term "the Jews"

 

There are many younger American Jews and even Israeli Jews who clearly understand the  difference between the evil of anti-semitism and the legitimate criticism: anti Zionism.

[Scott]

Inflammatory posts and replies removed.  Continue and face a suspension.   Personal commentary needs to cease.

 

[Morch]

2 hours ago, dexterm said:

I am appalled that Germany, noted for its liberal views, should attack a non violent protest movement that targets a racist supremacist apartheid regime. It has worked in the past and will ultimately do so again, especially when countries adopt the same principle in the form of sanctions. Germany will find itself on the wrong side of history.

 

Boycott is one a the few ways one can effectively and peacefully demonstrate one's disgust at the unjust way Israel treats Palestinians.

 

No-one in the thread has yet mentioned a single instance of anti-semitism that BDS supposedly promotes.

 

Others commented on the extreme rhetoric used, serving as a good example for issues pointed out earlier in the topic.

 

Holding liberal views doesn't necessarily equate with adopting your extreme politics wholesale. It also doesn't mean turning a blind eye to anything whatsoever which reflect negatively on the Palestinians - wouldn't a liberal feel compelled to speak out about such matters as well?

 

There's plenty of human rights issues around the world, certainly some (if not many) more acute, involve more people, casualties and hardship. Noted that nothing of substance contributed with regard on the reasoning behind disproportionately focusing on Israel.

 

As for feigning ignorance of antisemitic instances involving BDS groups and members (again, certainly not all) - kindly consult the many topic where such were discussed in the past, and in which you partook. On this forum, it's pretty much a sure bet that there will be antisemitic comments made on any given Israel related topic. More than once, by posters advocating support for the BDS campaign.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, dexterm said:

I think you regard toxic is any criticism of Israel.

 

So how toxic do you regard Netanyahu's statement or Israel's treatment of Palestinians inside Israel..could give you many instances of apartheid there, in the Occupied Territories overt apartheid, and Israel's refusal to allow any Palestinians from the diaspora to marry or be reunited with their families.

 

You call it maintaining the demographics balance in the Jewish State of Israel...I call it apartheid.

 

And BDS is one of the few peaceful ways that the global community can rectify that injustice.

 

No, that's a standard-issue deflection. I think it would be hard to call your rhetoric anything but, and that would still be a polite description. Not exactly sure why you'd want to compare the style of rhetoric you favor to Netanyahu's - but even so, he doesn't usually engage in such a manner. There's plenty of ways to say things, it is not mandatory to choose vehemence.

 

The BDS doesn't represent the "global community". The World is not fully aligned with your politics.

 

 

 

[Morch]

2 hours ago, dexterm said:

..and yet still not a single shred of evidence in this thread about anything BDS has said or done that is anti-semitic.

 

Jump up and down often enough, yell "anti semitic" loudly enough, get German politicians to parrot your mantras and hope some of the mud sticks.

 

Pure McCarthyism.

 

Many on this forum suffer from PEP...Progressive Except Palestine.

 

Jump up and down often enough, yell "apartheid" loudly enough, parrot mantras and hope some of the mud sticks. Some posters seem to imagine that "progressive" necessarily equates with their own extreme views on a specific issue. It doesn't.

[candide]

22 hours ago, sanemax said:

I did not and am not asking why the BDS hasnt condemned China .

I was asking why BDS supporters boycott Israeli goods and do NOT boycott Chinese goods .

BDS supporters claim they are boycotting Israeli goods because of Israels treatment of the Palestinians .

  Chinas treatment of the Tibetans/Uigars is very much worse than Isreals treatment of the Palestinians  .

   I could also mention various other ethnic minorities in various Countrys that get worse treatment/similar treatment to the Palestinians , but lets stick to the Tibetans and Uigars and China .

  Why do the people who boycott Israel not also boycott China ?

The only logical reason is that Israel is a  Jewish nation and that would make the Israel boy-cotters to be anti-semites .

  Unless you can give an explanation as to why they boycott Israel and not China 

Why do some people support Thibetans and not Palestinians? Why do some people support Uighurs and not Thibetans or Palestinians? Why do some people support .. and not ...? Etc....

[sanemax]

4 minutes ago, candide said:

Why do some people support Thibetans and not Palestinians? Why do some people support Uighurs and not Thibetans or Palestinians? Why do some people support .. and not ...? Etc....

I was talking about boycotting , actively trying to cause a Countries downfall , rather than just merely supporting or not  

[Morch]

11 hours ago, candide said:

Why do some people support Thibetans and not Palestinians? Why do some people support Uighurs and not Thibetans or Palestinians? Why do some people support .. and not ...? Etc....

 

People can support whatever they feel like, fair enough. Then there's conducting a campaign trying to paint this as the worst human rights issue ever, regardless of facts and without applying perspective. We're told, on this topic, that those not embracing the BDS agenda are "fake" liberals/progressives. At the same time, those advocating BDS agenda aren't nearly as active applying similar standards to more heavy duty human right violators, and even welcome support from such parties. All this while going on about governments not acting according to their wishes as morally bankrupt, duplicitous and whatnot.

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎5‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 1:02 AM, up-country_sinclair said:

The BDS movement is not anti-semitic, and this designation is clearly the handiwork of Israeli lobbyists.  Money talks in politics. It's all about the Benjamins.

Quite right too. Being anti Israeli is not the same as being anti Jewish. I won't say anti Semitic as Arabs are also Semites.

Occupying other people's land and harassing them daily is the same as what the white Sth African government was ostracised for.

Let's remember that Jews also oppose Israeli politics.

[thaibeachlovers]

13 hours ago, Morch said:

The BDS doesn't represent the "global community". The World is not fully aligned with your politics.

The whole world didn't support the anti apartheid movement till it did, and then the white government was gone.

Movements take a while to gain momentum, but you know that.

Every time Israel bombs schools and hospitals in Gaza, kills children, more people start to wake up to what is happening there.

Israel has sown the wind, the whirlwind is coming.

[sanemax]

Just now, thaibeachlovers said:

The whole world didn't support the anti apartheid movement till it did, and then the white government was gone.

Movements take a while to gain momentum, but you know that.

Every time Israel bombs schools and hospitals in Gaza, kills children, more people start to wake up to what is happening there.

Israel has sown the wind, the whirlwind is coming.

Everyone is quite aware that Hamas fires rockets from schools and hospitals in Gaza , knowing full  well that when Israel fires back to hit the rocket launchers , there will be infant fatalities and the Palestinians will parade them around like trophies 

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The whole world didn't support the anti apartheid movement till it did, and then the white government was gone.

Movements take a while to gain momentum, but you know that.

Every time Israel bombs schools and hospitals in Gaza, kills children, more people start to wake up to what is happening there.

Israel has sown the wind, the whirlwind is coming.

 

Somehow doubt you could meaningfully demonstrate the effectiveness of either set of boycott, even if both cases were similar (which is basically just another talking point). There will always be people who choose, for one reason or another, to see only Israeli actions, while ignoring/justifying Palestinian actions or having little concept of context. As for posters' standing predictions....wouldn't hold my breath.

[thaibeachlovers]

6 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Everyone is quite aware that Hamas fires rockets from schools and hospitals in Gaza , knowing full  well that when Israel fires back to hit the rocket launchers , there will be infant fatalities and the Palestinians will parade them around like trophies 

If Israel did the right thing and left the occupied territories for real ( not a pretend evacuation like in Gaza ) and the Palestinians had their own state, they might not feel the need to fire rockets at their tormenters. Making peace does work, as the British found when they started really talking to the IRA.

Sadly, the Israelis apparently don't want peace, as they keep building settlements on illegally occupied territory in violation of all international treaties.

[cooked]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

LOL. I was replying to Sanemax who was using the "go back thousands of years" argument. 

Here's news from recently- Israelis bomb Gaza, again, killing more children.

450 rockets into southern Israel. aimed deliberately at schools even if they do miss. What are they supposed to do? War for their survival. Yes, missiles kill children a.lso.

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

If Israel did the right thing and left the occupied territories for real ( not a pretend evacuation like in Gaza ) and the Palestinians had their own state, they might not feel the need to fire rockets at their tormenters. Making peace does work, as the British found when they started really talking to the IRA.

Sadly, the Israelis apparently don't want peace, as they keep building settlements on illegally occupied territory in violation of all international treaties.

 

More "what if". If the Palestinians accepted the partition plan, or chose negotiation over rejectionism and violence - they wouldn't be in the sorry state they are in. But in some posters' world, the Palestinians are never ever accountable or responsible for anything, not even their own choices and decisions.

 

How was Israel's withdrawal from the Gaza Strip "pretend" isn't explained. Same goes for the connection between this bogus "argument" and rockets attacks.

 

Peace making takes both side. 

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, dexterm said:

BDS is protesting against the illegal occupation of Palestinian land. The injustice and racism lies in the fact that a person can arrive at Ben Gurion airport and claim instant citizenship and a house land subsidy based purely on his religion, however adulterated by millennia of inter marriage and conversion... Ivanka Trump could claim the package if she wanted to. Whereas the actual Palestinian owner of the land who still holds the title deeds is languishing in a refugee camp a couple of miles away. 

 

The Bible is not a real estate title deed. This has got to be the most ridiculous argument in the Zionist mythology playbook, ignoring the fact that countless other peoples before and after the brief period of Jewish history have lived in Palestine.

 

Strikes me as extremely unfair. That's why I support BDS.

 

BDS founder's notion of how things ought to be is pretty much the same, but in reverse. That is, Palestinian diaspora being afforded a right of return, while Jews abroad won't.

Not quite what you're trying to market.

 

Wholesale denial of the Jewish people's unique connection with the land is not a strong argument.

 

You support BDS because it suits your extreme anti-Israeli position, and the style of rhetoric employed.

[dexterm]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

BDS founder's notion of how things ought to be is pretty much the same, but in reverse. That is, Palestinian diaspora being afforded a right of return, while Jews abroad won't.

Not quite what you're trying to market.

 

Wholesale denial of the Jewish people's unique connection with the land is not a strong argument.

 

You support BDS because it suits your extreme anti-Israeli position, and the style of rhetoric employed.

And Israel's refusal to allow Palestinians' right of return having once ethnically cleansed them is based on one thing only: pure racism.

 

A clause in a peace agreement could easily be negotiated: guaranteeing the right of any persecuted Jew world wide a safe haven in Israel, along with a whole host of family reunification, religious, marriage, retirement permanent residence visas. Plus a guaranteed 50:50 Jewish/non Jewish parliament.

 

It is the racism and desire to hold onto power however unjustly that I object to. That's why I support BDS.

[dexterm]

51 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

More "what if". If the Palestinians accepted the partition plan, or chose negotiation over rejectionism and violence - they wouldn't be in the sorry state they are in. But in some posters' world, the Palestinians are never ever accountable or responsible for anything, not even their own choices and decisions.

 

How was Israel's withdrawal from the Gaza Strip "pretend" isn't explained. Same goes for the connection between this bogus "argument" and rockets attacks.

 

Peace making takes both side. 

If we are playing the "What if" game, Zionists too have missed many very costly opportunities for peace by refusing partition (1937 Peel) and compromise. If the Palestinians do not have peace, nor do Israelis.

 

Let's deal with the present please. The only way Israel can have permanent peace (the only kind worth having) is to compromise with its neighbors.... the offer from the entire Arab world has been on the table for years.. end the illegal occupation and allow return/compensation/ recognition of the Palestinian refugees...which are the corner stones of the BDS movement too.