German Jews warned not to wear kippas after rise in anti-Semitism

[Morch]

5 hours ago, BobBKK said:

Totally against attacking anyone, of any faith,  but I do favour "when in Rome". Here I do many things as it's 'here' and if I went to Israel and was visiting a synagogue I would wear what was required to appease the locals.

 

Do you demand the same of say, Muslims? Sikhs? Buddhists? Is this "when in Rome" thing actually applied world wide? Do you actually get it that the Jews, in this instance are locals?

[Morch]

5 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

"Just because they are Jews"? Are Jews behaving just like everybody else? Are there differences between Christians, Muslims, Buddhists and Jews? Yes. Not everybody likes Muslims and it seems that is acceptable for many. So why is it not acceptable that some people don't like some Jews? We are not all the same. That is of course not a reason to fight each other. But pretending there are no differences and no reason is unrealistic.

 

Do tell, just how are Jews behaving differently? Or, for that matter, how do members of other religions act distinctively differently? Not liking is one thing, attacking those one doesn't like is another. And while at it - what is that "reason" you're alluding to - your post doesn't actually say.

[OneMoreFarang]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

Do tell, just how are Jews behaving differently? Or, for that matter, how do members of other religions act distinctively differently? Not liking is one thing, attacking those one doesn't like is another. And while at it - what is that "reason" you're alluding to - your post doesn't actually say.

Look at money lending over the centuries. That's what Jews did because Christians were not allowed to do it by their religion.

And as far as I know Jews are still a big part of the banking world.

But I don't really know because I don't really care about religion.

 

But sometimes there is a strong connection between religion and people's behavior. Israel is an example, Saudi Arabia is another one. And the USA is full of Christians who seem to read just one book and ignore anything that was published after the bible.

 

My point is: If Muslims blow up buildings then nobody should be surprised if many people don't like Muslims in general. And if Jews kill innocent Palestinians and suppress them all the time then nobody should be surprised that they are also not liked.

[Morch]

30 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Look at money lending over the centuries. That's what Jews did because Christians were not allowed to do it by their religion.

And as far as I know Jews are still a big part of the banking world.

But I don't really know because I don't really care about religion.

 

But sometimes there is a strong connection between religion and people's behavior. Israel is an example, Saudi Arabia is another one. And the USA is full of Christians who seem to read just one book and ignore anything that was published after the bible.

 

My point is: If Muslims blow up buildings then nobody should be surprised if many people don't like Muslims in general. And if Jews kill innocent Palestinians and suppress them all the time then nobody should be surprised that they are also not liked.

 

Disregarding your version of history, and the obvious tropes you keep on using while claiming not to be a bigot - do tell, what does this have to do with "behaving differently"? And if you "really don't know", what is the value of airing such views?

 

Same goes for your next attempt - Do all (or even most) Israelis' behavior governed by religion? Does the same hold for other countries? You just post this as fact, without even trying to support it.

 

So far, nothing concrete about "different behavior", then.

 

Two comments on your "point" (which doesn't actually follow from the rest) -

 

People hating all Muslims because some Muslims resort to terrorism are bigots. On top of that, people take less kindly to acts of violence directed at those less obviously involved. The World generally reacts less strongly to such actions when confined to the local/regional level.

 

And

 

This would explain, maybe, Muslim violence against Jews. I don't think the average extreme right winger or Neo Nazi cares much about Palestinian rights. Also probably not all that much outright violence on offer from left-wing liberals.

[Jingthing]

11 hours ago, Morch said:

Here's a link to a (long, be warned) article from the New York Times, giving a more in-depth analysis:

 

The New German Anti-Semitism

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/21/magazine/anti-semitism-germany.html

 

 

This is an excellent (but very long) article. Thank you for posting it. Anyone that is sincerely interested in this topic should read it. 

[Scott]

Racist post removed.  

[BKKBike09]

1 hour ago, BangkokBaksida said:

"Just for starters, Jews have used their money (through AIPAC) to more or less totally take control of the government of my country, the US.  Here is an excellent book on the subject, written by a former US Congressman, that you can read online for free.  This book was written decades ago, so the control of the US by Jews has only gotten worse since then"

 

How does this view square with Trump occupying the Oval Office, and having the support of a sizeable chunk of the US population? Trump doesn't seem to be in thrall to "the Jews".

 

"In a speech before the Republican Jewish Coalition in April (2019), he said that recently reelected Benjamin Netanyahu was "your prime minister." Instead of implying dual loyalty, he all but said Jews aren't actually Americans at all, because they have single loyalty to Israel." 

https://theweek.com/articles/835714/what-donald-trump-said-about-jews

 

As for the yarmulke: seems like a lot of fuss about a very small hat.

 

 

[DeaconJohn]

20 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

"Just because they are Jews"? Are Jews behaving just like everybody else? Are there differences between Christians, Muslims, Buddhists and Jews? Yes. Not everybody likes Muslims and it seems that is acceptable for many. So why is it not acceptable that some people don't like some Jews? We are not all the same. That is of course not a reason to fight each other. But pretending there are no differences and no reason is unrealistic.

Your post sums it up very well.

The counter-arguments are feeble and unconvincing.

The history of these hapless people is tragic in the extreme.

Persecutions and expulsions began in Egypt and Mesopotamia long before the start of our era and continue to the present day. 

Not being able to wear their kippas in public is among the least of the indignities that they've been subjected to.

[griffon2011]

On 5/27/2019 at 7:37 AM, ezzra said:

Nothing has changed over the last 2000 years where jews were persecuted, demonised, slaughtered, waged war upon them by mighty armies, over and over, exiled from their homeland numerous times just because they are Jews, and now in the US and other countries there's a resurrections of anti jewish sentiments, can anyone say why? no, not really, when the world need to hate someone, there are always the jews for it...

Why? That is the question never asked.  That the Jews have been persecuted, demonized and slaughtered over and over again as you say is never in question only the reason why.  What is the common denominator that Jews have that transcends thousands of years, hundreds of countries and just about every culture they come in contact with to treat them this way? They can't always be the victim.  

[BobBKK]

14 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Do you demand the same of say, Muslims? Sikhs? Buddhists? Is this "when in Rome" thing actually applied world wide? Do you actually get it that the Jews, in this instance are locals?

Yes.

[Thakkar]

53 minutes ago, griffon2011 said:

Why? That is the question never asked.  That the Jews have been persecuted, demonized and slaughtered over and over again as you say is never in question only the reason why.  What is the common denominator that Jews have that transcends thousands of years, hundreds of countries and just about every culture they come in contact with to treat them this way? They can't always be the victim.  

 

Outside of Israel—a relatively new country—they are few in number, easily identifiable by their names and where they pray, comparatively well educated (and so consequently, often financially better off, leading to jealousy), and until recently, had few advocates in their favor. That has made them easy prey, easy targets and convenient scapegoats for people seeking or wanting to retain power and needing some group to blame for their woes.

 

It’s a tried and tested strategy.

[BangkokBaksida]

1 hour ago, griffon2011 said:

Why? That is the question never asked.  That the Jews have been persecuted, demonized and slaughtered over and over again as you say is never in question only the reason why.  What is the common denominator that Jews have that transcends thousands of years, hundreds of countries and just about every culture they come in contact with to treat them this way? They can't always be the victim.  

You are of course correct.  But when I tried to answer your question, my comment was censored - as "racist".  Censorship does not solve the problem.  Only discussion can.

[dick dasterdly]

On 5/27/2019 at 11:32 AM, Morch said:

 

As a counterpoint to the expected counterpoint, may want to read up on how the affiliation of perpetrators is determined and how undecided/unclear cases are labeled. There's plenty of data tossed about regarding percentages and attributing blame, enough to fit almost any narrative. Kinda doubt that politics aren't part of how things parceled. Pretty much as these things go on TVF topics.

I've been following this thread (although not posting as I'm neither German or Jewish) - but this is the best post I've seen on this thread to date.

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, BangkokBaksida said:

You are of course correct.  But when I tried to answer your question, my comment was censored - as "racist".  Censorship does not solve the problem.  Only discussion can.

We're supposed to trust you that it wasn't racist? 

Edited May 28, 2019 by Jingthing

[BangkokBaksida]

45 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

We're supposed to trust you that it wasn't racist? 

No.  You and others are supposed to get to read it - and then decide for yourselves.  And even if you found it racist - to argue with my points.

Edited May 28, 2019 by BangkokBaksida

[Jingthing]

14 minutes ago, BangkokBaksida said:

No.  You and others are supposed to get to read it - and then decide for yourselves.  And even if you found it racist - to argue with my points.

We can find hateful racist antisemitic garbage millions of places online, and everywhere. I for one appreciate that such an infection is somewhat limited here. Emphasis on somewhat. Every time there is a post about Jews or about Israel (and often randomly out of the blue) the ancient sickness of Jew hatred always reveals itself here, as predictable as the sun coming up. There is an endless supply.

[griffon2011]

2 hours ago, BangkokBaksida said:

You are of course correct.  But when I tried to answer your question, my comment was censored - as "racist".  Censorship does not solve the problem.  Only discussion can.

You are not allowed to challenge the official narrative thats why I generally find it a waste of time commenting on this subject.  For example If your opinion differs from or you question the recent historical narrative regarding Germany you will find yourself in jail.  You are not allowed to discuss certain subjects.  Is there really a need to make laws to protect the "truth"? 

[Rimmer]

A troll post has been removed

[bristolboy]

There a lot of nonsense going around to the effect that Jews have always been singularly hated wherever they've been. While true of the Catholic and Orthodox world, not at all true of the Islamic world.  For most of its history. Jews and Christians, being considered "People of the Book" were mostly not regarded as infidels but as subscribers to outdated revelations. As such they were both treated the same. In some places, like Persia, that could be very badly. In others, like what is Egypt, Turkey or now Iraq, they could be treated very well indeed. In some places, like Spain, treatment was mixed. And of course it could vary by time as well.

 

There was none of the demonization that figured in Catholic and Orthodox creeds which blamed the Jews for killing Jesus and sacrificing Christian Children. The bigotry ran so deep that both Chaucer and Shakespeare composed anti-Semitic works. As Protestantism evolved, its prejudices softened, though that happened too late for Shakespeare.

 

It was only in modern times, with the advent of European colonialism that the old prejudices gained currency in the Muslim world.  And whatever you may think of Zionism, it greatly exacerbated and deepened that prejudice in a part of the world where communities were still largely organized along religious lines. And of course, once Israel was created, Jews in middle eastern areas outside of Israel, were regarded as conspirators in its creation, even though it was largely a European Jewish endeavour. And mostly a secularized European Jewish project, at that. Orthodox Jews mostly considered the creation of Israel to be sacrilegious.

Edited May 28, 2019 by bristolboy

[sanemax]

1 hour ago, griffon2011 said:

You are not allowed to challenge the official narrative thats why I generally find it a waste of time commenting on this subject.  For example If your opinion differs from or you question the recent historical narrative regarding Germany you will find yourself in jail.  You are not allowed to discuss certain subjects.  Is there really a need to make laws to protect the "truth"? 

Are you asking whether Holocaust denial should be a criminal offence ?

[TopDeadSenter]

“There is to this day not a single synagogue, not a single daycare center for Jewish children, not a single school for Jewish children that does not need to be guarded by German policemen,” Merkel said.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/merkel-all-german-synagogues-jewish-schools-need-police-protection/

 

This woman, Merkel, is a flat out sociopath. She and she alone sped up the mass importation of the sworn enemies of the Jews, and then silenced the warnings and critics. Now she stands in the burning ruins of a great nation and bemoans the fact there is no security any more in Germany. It is insane.

[dick dasterdly]

24 minutes ago, TopDeadSenter said:

“There is to this day not a single synagogue, not a single daycare center for Jewish children, not a single school for Jewish children that does not need to be guarded by German policemen,” Merkel said.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/merkel-all-german-synagogues-jewish-schools-need-police-protection/

 

This woman, Merkel, is a flat out sociopath. She and she alone sped up the mass importation of the sworn enemies of the Jews, and then silenced the warnings and critics. Now she stands in the burning ruins of a great nation and bemoans the fact there is no security any more in Germany. It is insane.

 "She and she alone sped up the mass importation of the sworn enemies of the Jews, and then silenced the warnings and critics."

 

I agree.

Edited May 29, 2019 by dick dasterdly

[Chomper Higgot]

27 minutes ago, TopDeadSenter said:

“There is to this day not a single synagogue, not a single daycare center for Jewish children, not a single school for Jewish children that does not need to be guarded by German policemen,” Merkel said.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/merkel-all-german-synagogues-jewish-schools-need-police-protection/

 

This woman, Merkel, is a flat out sociopath. She and she alone sped up the mass importation of the sworn enemies of the Jews, and then silenced the warnings and critics. Now she stands in the burning ruins of a great nation and bemoans the fact there is no security any more in Germany. It is insane.

Your whole argument is based on a sweeping generalisation.

 

As with all sweeping generalisations it's wrong and hence leaves your argument lacking a basis in fact.

[sanemax]

4 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Your whole argument is based on a sweeping generalisation.

 

As with all sweeping generalisations it's wrong and hence leaves your argument lacking a basis in fact.

Didnt you just make  a "sweeping generalization" , whilst not trying to disprove his point and just saying "its wrong" ?

[Morch]

 

@bristolboy

 

"Nonsense". "Not at all true". "There was none". "It was only in modern times". Your words, appearing in your original post. The information in the links provided demonstrates these strong words do not fully conform to historical fact. 

 

And no, no cherry-picking on my part. I wasn't making a strong argument about Islam or Muslims being hyper-invested in antisemitism, or even more so than Christianity and Christians. Rather, the point made was that the version touted, complete with the wide-brush commentary, was not accurate.

 

There were several links provided, detailing many instances, and it was noted that this isn't a comprehensive list. You chose to address but a few of them, and quote a specific point of view from a review incorporating multiple takes and interpretations. But by all means, do go on waffling about cherry picking.

 

It doesn't take a whole lot of reading to understand that the issue (off topic as it is) doesn't really lend itself to decisive presentation offered. It's more complex than that, more nuanced, and can affords wide room for interpretation. Obviously, qualifying your post or toning it down would rob your final argument some of it's faux force, therefore....

 

Edited May 29, 2019 by Morch

[metisdead]

Troll posts and replies have been removed. 

 

Off topic posts and replies have been removed. 

[bristolboy]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

@bristolboy

 

"Nonsense". "Not at all true". "There was none". "It was only in modern times". Your words, appearing in your original post. The information in the links provided demonstrates these strong words do not fully conform to historical fact. 

 

And no, no cherry-picking on my part. I wasn't making a strong argument about Islam or Muslims being hyper-invested in antisemitism, or even more so than Christianity and Christians. Rather, the point made was that the version touted, complete with the wide-brush commentary, was not accurate.

 

There were several links provided, detailing many instances, and it was noted that this isn't a comprehensive list. You chose to address but a few of them, and quote a specific point of view from a review incorporating multiple takes and interpretations. But by all means, do go on waffling about cherry picking.

 

It doesn't take a whole lot of reading to understand that the issue (off topic as it is) doesn't really lend itself to decisive presentation offered. It's more complex than that, more nuanced, and can affords wide room for interpretation. Obviously, qualifying your post or toning it down would rob your final argument some of it's faux force, therefore....

 

You're still spouting nonsense. The contention that I originally started out with was that Jews were not demonized the way that they were in Christian Europe. And why would they have been? Muslims wouldn't hold them accountable for killing the Son of God. They didn't subscribe to the blood libel. And they certainly would endorse the Jews rejection of Jesus as being the son of God, You won't find their great poets touting such anti-semitic nonsense. And you won't find anywhere in Catholic or Orthodox Europe the level of toleration that the Jews enjoyed for long stretches in the Middle East. In many locales right up until the middle of the 20th century. 

And I particularly chose Bernard Lewis to cite both because of the nearly (entirely?) universal respect his work commands and that fact the he was an ardent supporter of the state of Israel and a stern critic of the Palestinian leadership. So he wasn't grinding any political axes in his take on Islam's relation to the Jews.

According to Lewis, the outstanding characteristic of the classical Islamic view of Jews is their unimportance. The religious, philosophical, and literary Islamic writings tended to ignore Jews and focused more on Christianity. Although the Jews received little praise or even respect and were sometimes blamed for various misdeeds, there were no fears of Jewish conspiracy and domination, nor any charges of diabolic evil, nor accusations of poisoning the wells nor spreading the plague nor were they even accused of engaging in blood libels until Ottomans learned the concept from their Greek subjects in the 15th century.^[88]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Islam#Literature

 

And by the way, how did you manage to construe that Muslims were to blame for the pogrom in Safed committed by the Druze?

[bristolboy]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

 

@bristolboy

 

"Nonsense". "Not at all true". "There was none". "It was only in modern times". Your words, appearing in your original post. The information in the links provided demonstrates these strong words do not fully conform to historical fact. 

 

And no, no cherry-picking on my part. I wasn't making a strong argument about Islam or Muslims being hyper-invested in antisemitism, or even more so than Christianity and Christians. Rather, the point made was that the version touted, complete with the wide-brush commentary, was not accurate.

 

There were several links provided, detailing many instances, and it was noted that this isn't a comprehensive list. You chose to address but a few of them, and quote a specific point of view from a review incorporating multiple takes and interpretations. But by all means, do go on waffling about cherry picking.

 

It doesn't take a whole lot of reading to understand that the issue (off topic as it is) doesn't really lend itself to decisive presentation offered. It's more complex than that, more nuanced, and can affords wide room for interpretation. Obviously, qualifying your post or toning it down would rob your final argument some of it's faux force, therefore....

 

Instead of indulging in vague and therefore irrefutable persiflage like this:

"It doesn't take a whole lot of reading to understand that the issue (off topic as it is) doesn't really lend itself to decisive presentation offered. It's more complex than that, more nuanced, and can affords wide room for interpretation."

why not cite some eminent historian who fundamentially disagrees with my position. Good luck with that. And if you want a nice overview of how Jews fared in the Ottoman Empire, there's this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_Ottoman_Empire

[griffon2011]

On 5/28/2019 at 3:52 PM, sanemax said:

Are you asking whether Holocaust denial should be a criminal offence ?

No, I am not asking that.  It should never be a criminal offense, however, in many countries it is a criminal offense.   

[Jingthing]

45 minutes ago, griffon2011 said:

No, I am not asking that.  It should never be a criminal offense, however, in many countries it is a criminal offense.   

Maybe it shouldn't be a criminal offense, but it sure is despicable.