PR for retirees, please!

[Gecko123]

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

Any retiree, with years spent here, all the time in the world to learn Thai, will know exactly how to get around this hurdle. For the last ones, unwilling to learn Thai, or hooked up with a partner who doesn't let them doesn't deserve to stay here. Bring on the Thai language test, like the ones other countries have.

Sounds to me like you're against permanent residency being offered because it would make getting Thai citizenship - something you've reminded us on multiple occasions you have  - pretty much pointless.

 

Grant permanent residency to long term expats??? (sputter, expletive, sputter) By jove, my pwecious Thai citizenship bragging rights would jolly well be shot all to hell. I say require this riff-raff, this storm detritus, these cultural barbarians to recite the alphabet backwards, sing the national anthem in reverse, plow 20 rai with a water buffalo, eat a gallon of plaa raa dip, climb a coconut tree, run barefoot the length of Thailand, charm a cobra, continuously perform the fingernail dance from dusk to dawn, and join the monkhood for six months before even considering their application for permanent residency. Make it bloody difficult, I say. Make them suffer the way I had to. Harumpf. LOL!

 

By the way, I have decades of experience with Thai language and don't have the foggiest idea how to get around the visa financial requirements without a visa agent. Not that I need to know, but would you care to enlighten us, Obi-wan Kenobi, or will crypticness remain the order of the day?

 

Edited May 29, 2019 by Gecko123

[Old Croc]

As a retiree I would love the option of obtaining PR and the benefit of escaping the Immigration fees, reporting, etc.

However, I'm practical enough to know it can never happen here for a number of reasons.

For a start, the Thai populous would not allow their government to give 100,000 or so (mainly) old men from western countries permanent rights in their country. It would be like the colonization they very proudly insist they never had.  The resentment would be huge and probably not contained. We haven't, and wouldn't, contribute to the taxes that pay for social services and infrastructure.

The Thai xenophobia that translates to a belief that every westerner is potentially a bad guy, would be another reason for them to decline such a scheme. The fact that many of those westerners believe they, and their former country's values, are superior to the cultural traditions here, only enforces their belief that we don't fit into Thai society..

No country wants to take the responsibility of caring for an influx of aged migrants heading towards their end of life. There's good reason current quotas are small. 

Australia used to have PR retirement visas (for those with plenty of cash), but discontinued them as such years ago. There is still a "pathway" to PR for retirees, but it is tied into the parent sponsorship category and subject to strict quotas and long waiting periods. They realized the burden old people from elsewhere can put on the public purse.

I have a friend who married a Thai when in his 20's and has lived here for nearly forty years.  He is still married to the same lady and they have adult children. He has only left temporarily for work purposes. He still has to jump through the Immigration hoops including reporting every 90 days. He, and others like him, should be eligible for PR, not every blow-in retiree looking for their social nirvana.

 

[The Man Who Sold the World]

16 minutes ago, Gecko123 said:

By the way, I have decades of experience with Thai language and don't have the foggiest idea how to get around the visa financial requirements

Yup, same here. But, realistically there is no "getting around" the financial requirements. Those who pay a visa agent to circumvent the required funding are one "incident" or "crackdown" away from being show the IDC and scrambling for a plane ticket. 

 

 

Edited May 29, 2019 by The Man Who Sold the World
add comment

[nursebob]

what about a farang married to a Thai and living here for 10 years with no criminal record here or back home?

[Gecko123]

2 minutes ago, The Man Who Sold the World said:

Yup, same here. But, realistically there is no "getting around" the financial requirements. Those who pay a visa agent to circumvent the required funding are one "incident" or "crackdown" away from being show the IDC and scrambling for a plane ticket. 

That is certainly a risk worth keeping in mind.

[luckyluke]

10 minutes ago, Old Croc said:

...the fact that many of those westerners believe they, and their former country's values, are superior to the cultural traditions here...,

My wife for 19 years tell me often :

 

" you don't understand because you apply your logic, and are convinced that your logic is the only right one everywhere".

 

 

 

[ubonjoe]

10 minutes ago, nursebob said:

what about a farang married to a Thai and living here for 10 years with no criminal record here or back home?

You have to be working with a work permit and paying taxes for 3 years on extension of stay to apply for PR.

And if you can meet those requirements you can apply for Thai nationality instead of PR.

[from the home of CC]

3 hours ago, JackThompson said:

We don't have any power to change anything - tourist or retiree.  They don't hear our bleating or care.  We are not overloading the infrastructure, requiring significant capital spending on road repair (tour buses are heavy), the airport, etc to handle us. 

 

Any of us who is willing to pay them off under the table, is welcome to stay as long as we want.

If you don't think foreigners complaining doesn't bother the Thais you're mistaken. Peoples complaints (especially loud ones) can bring feelings of 'loss of face'. Why do think they get upset when people use their horns to admonish someone driving? That's why they love Chinese tourists so much, they don't whine publicly. I have never paid anything 'under the table' in Thailand and I feel more than welcome here. 

[Old Croc]

PR for retirees is off the table imo.

However, wouldn't it be beneficial for all parties if amendments were made to the legislation to allow for an easing of the strict reporting conditions for people who have demonstrated they are not a security risk?

If after, say 5 or 10 years, a retiree has kept a clean record and always complied with conditions, why not put them in a special category where reporting is only required when changing their address. Perhaps even allowing for longer stay periods. (Without going to the elite visa)   

Not going to happen, but it would be efficient for all.

 

[Uptooyoo]

There will never be security for non-Thais in Thailand. Thailand hasn't forgotten Europe's colonial past in Indochina, especially France's. Thailand was the only country to avoid colonialism and still does so by restricting foreigners rights and banning land ownership. If they had allowed foreigners the same rights as Thais, most tourist areas, including the islands of Koh Samui and Phuket, would be foreign colonies. There is a saying here: Thailand is for Thais. This is why I will never invest here because the attitudes will never change. There will always be uncertainty. I can't imagine sleeping peacefully while having 800k in a Thai bank, 4 million in a condo, and 1 million in a car when your status is no different than a tourist. This means accepting the risk of losing everything at a moments notice. As a "guest" you can be denied entry or forced to leave with no explanation and no recourse. You have no rights. You are living at the whim of a Thai immigration officer. If you can accept this, fine; some are wealthy enough to accept the loss and recover somewhere else, but most can't. 

For these reasons, I never allow myself to forget that no matter how long I've been here, my legal status is no different than the 18 year old backpacker getting off the plane for the first time. I haven't fooled myself into thinking I am anything more in the eye's of the Thai government. So I'm just a long-term tourist with an eye on the exit.

Edited May 29, 2019 by Uptooyoo
clarification

[luckyluke]

3 minutes ago, Uptooyoo said:

thinking I am anything more in the eye's of the Thai government. 

I am 19 years here, married,

my wife has a house, car...mainly paid with my money.

 

Many are like me,

many think they should therefore been entitled to a special status because they take care of one/several Thai.

 

Sexpats by spending a lot of money in bars, go-go's, "Short & Long Time"  take also care of several Thais.

 

It would be logical that they should also been entitled to a special status.

[Peterw42]

4 minutes ago, Uptooyoo said:

There will never be security for non-Thais in Thailand. Thailand hasn't forgotten Europe's colonial past in Indochina, especially France's. Thailand was the only country to avoid colonialism and still does so by restricting foreigners rights and banning land ownership. If they had allowed foreigners the same rights as Thais, most tourist areas, including the islands of Koh Samui and Phuket, would be a foreign colonies. There is a saying here: Thailand is for Thais. This is why I will never invest here because the attitudes will never change. There will always be uncertainty. I can't imagine sleeping peacefully while having 800k in a Thai bank, 4 million in a condo, and 1 million in a car when your status is no different than a tourist. This means accepting the risk of losing everything at a moments notice. As a "guest" you can be denied entry or forced to leave with no explanation and no recourse. You have no rights. You are living at the whim of a Thai immigration officer. If you can accept this, fine; some are wealthy enough to accept the loss and recover somewhere else, but most can't. 

For these reasons, I never allow myself to forget that no matter how long I've been here, my legal status is no different than the 18 year old backpacker getting off the plane for the first time. I haven't fooled myself into thinking I am anything more in the eye's of the Thai government. So I'm just a long-term tourist with an eye on the exit.

Or, like many of us, you could consider the glass half full, enjoy living here and look forward to living here for many years to come.

 

I came here 6-8 years ago, put 800k aside as I knew it would be required in one way or another, a yearly visit to immigration to extend. I meet all my other immigration requirements on-line. I own a property and have legal title to it. I have no reason to believe I will ever be denied entry or forced to leave with no explanation and no recourse. (has that ever happend to anyone on a long stay) My status is very different to a tourist, a tourist has a limited stay that cannot be extended beyond 90 days. I have a stay that can be extended indefinitely. I sleep really well.

 

 

[gamini]

19 hours ago, KiChakayan said:

OP is dreaming, the last thing the Government wants is retirees to stay. By now it should be clear to everyone that the current policy is to make our stay as unpleasant as possible

this post should get a prize for one of the most stupid I've ever read. The current policy of the government is to encourage genuine retirees because they bring large financial benefitS to the country. Its current policy is to weed out non-genuine retirees who try to cheat the system by using VISA agents to put up the financial requirements and those  giving false declarations about their income. I guess that you must be one of these

[ThaiBunny]

56 minutes ago, Gecko123 said:

That is certainly a risk worth keeping in mind.

Hardly to be avoided since we've heard it so often ... but oddly enough no reports of offenders being caught

[jayboy]

1 hour ago, Old Croc said:

As a retiree I would love the option of obtaining PR and the benefit of escaping the Immigration fees, reporting, etc.

However, I'm practical enough to know it can never happen here for a number of reasons.

For a start, the Thai populous would not allow their government to give 100,000 or so (mainly) old men from western countries permanent rights in their country. It would be like the colonization they very proudly insist they never had.  The resentment would be huge and probably not contained. We haven't, and wouldn't, contribute to the taxes that pay for social services and infrastructure.

The Thai xenophobia that translates to a belief that every westerner is potentially a bad guy, would be another reason for them to decline such a scheme. The fact that many of those westerners believe they, and their former country's values, are superior to the cultural traditions here, only enforces their belief that we don't fit into Thai society..

No country wants to take the responsibility of caring for an influx of aged migrants heading towards their end of life. There's good reason current quotas are small. 

Australia used to have PR retirement visas (for those with plenty of cash), but discontinued them as such years ago. There is still a "pathway" to PR for retirees, but it is tied into the parent sponsorship category and subject to strict quotas and long waiting periods. They realized the burden old people from elsewhere can put on the public purse.

I have a friend who married a Thai when in his 20's and has lived here for nearly forty years.  He is still married to the same lady and they have adult children. He has only left temporarily for work purposes. He still has to jump through the Immigration hoops including reporting every 90 days. He, and others like him, should be eligible for PR, not every blow-in retiree looking for their social nirvana.

 

PR for retirees is not on the cards, but not for the reasons you mention.Granting PR confers no material rights on the foreigner concerned in terms of healthcare or owning property/land and certainly not political rights like voting.

 

The reason it won't happen is in my view because the Thai Government sees no need for it.

 

I disagree with your comment on Thai xenophobia.

Thais are actually rather tolerant of foreigners, far more than most countries.That's one of the reasons foreigners like being here.

[Neeranam]

2 hours ago, jacko45k said:

So apparently learning fluent Thai will open up a whole new world of corruption opportunities only available to those special few. Is carping on and on about it obligatory too?

You'll find in most countries there is s requirement to learn the local language to get a long term visa.

[Neeranam]

1 hour ago, Gecko123 said:

Sounds to me like you're against permanent residency being offered because it would make getting Thai citizenship - something you've reminded us on multiple occasions you have  - pretty much pointless.

There is no comparison between PR and citizenship. Many of us want to start companies, own land, vote, and not have to get reentry permits like PRs have to do, not retort to the police every 5 years. 

Thailand is a developing country, please allow it to do so, without demanding things that developed countries don't allow. 

Please state one post where I've said I have Thai citizenship.

[Uptooyoo]

1 hour ago, Peterw42 said:

Or, like many of us, you could consider the glass half full, enjoy living here and look forward to living here for many years to come.

 

I came here 6-8 years ago, put 800k aside as I knew it would be required in one way or another, a yearly visit to immigration to extend. I meet all my other immigration requirements on-line. I own a property and have legal title to it. I have no reason to believe I will ever be denied entry or forced to leave with no explanation and no recourse. (has that ever happend to anyone on a long stay) My status is very different to a tourist, a tourist has a limited stay that cannot be extended beyond 90 days. I have a stay that can be extended indefinitely. I sleep really well.

 

 

I am happy for you and hope things continue to go great in the future.

I recently read a story about a lady with Alzheimer's disease and her caretaker daughter who were economically forced out. She couldn't cover the new financial requirements for the both of them, no exceptions, so immigration forced them to leave. They weren't on tourist visas, She was spending $3000 dollars a month at a care facility in Chiang Mai. Yesterday they left for the Philippines. Remember, what hasn't happened in the past doesn't mean it can't happen in the future.

Also, one must consider the current U.S.- China political climate that could lead to a major crisis: the ongoing trade war could turn into a hot war.; a direct military conflict over the South China Sea or the Taiwan independence issue. Also, China's increasing influence gained from the "Belt and Road initiative" and the resulting heavy debt load it creates on Thailand. If Thailand is forced to choose sides, who will they choose? A capricious United States eight thousand miles away, or their neighbor and creditor, China, having the world's largest population and soon-to-be largest economy in the world? Would western expats be welcome anywhere in Asia, under Chinese domination, if casualties were to mount during a conflict? Something to consider.

   In regard to real estate, foreigners may have legal title to a condo, or own the structure (house) that sits on the land, but as an individual, foreigners can never own the land on which it sits. No exceptions. Sure you will find lawyers who will set up leases, businesses, etc. to try and get around the law. But you will never own it 100% 

But I don't have to own anything to enjoy my time here. Yes, the glass is more than half full, any less, and I'd be outta here. 

Edited May 29, 2019 by Uptooyoo
clarification

[biggles45]

"Actually, the Philipinnes offer residence for retirees with very low requirements"

 

after 10+ years living in Thailand I looked at the retirement requirements and decided that they were too onerous and went for the Philippine option. Similar financial requirements but with SRRV

- you get Permanent Resident status and a plastic resident card.

- you NEVER report to immigration for any reason.  not once in my 7 years

- no exit visa requirements, come and go as you like.

 

my Filipina partner and I spend 5 months a year in Thailand, 2X60 day and 1X 30 day. She doesnt pay for her visa, mine costs 1,050 baht.IF YOU DONT want to go this route, you can arrive on a 30 day visa free entry and keep extending (at a cost) up to 3 years, when you leave and then start again. Certainly a better deal than Thailand offers. 

[Gecko123]

22 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Please state one post where I've said I have Thai citizenship.

I misremembered you as the author of the "Story of my Thai Citizenship" thread. Apologies.

[metisdead]

Off topic trolling posts about Latin America have been removed as well as the replies. 

[khunPer]

22 hours ago, Jaray said:

Therefore they cannot apply for Permanent Residency (I believe).

What about these options...

Quote

• You must have had a Thai non-immigrant visa for at least three years prior to the submission of your application. Holders of multiple NON-Immigrant visas can not apply. You must have 3 consecutive yearly extensions in order to qualify.
• You must be a holder of a non-immigrant visa at the time of submitting your application.
• You must be able to meet one of these categories to apply for PR status in Thailand:
  • Investment category (minimum 3 – 10 Mil. Baht investment in Thailand)
  • Working/ Business category
  • Support a family or Humanity Reasons category: In this category, you must have a relationship with a Thai citizen or an alien who already posses a residence permit as a husband or wife; father or mother; or a guardian of a Thai child under 20 years of age.
  • Expert / academic category
  • Other categories as determined by Thai Immigration

Read more "Thai Permanent Residency".

[ubonjoe]

16 minutes ago, khunPer said:

What about these options...

Read more "Thai Permanent Residency".

There is a lot of missing info on that website that is not a official website that was set up by a law firm. From the bottom of that page.

"This is NOT the official website of the Thai Embassy."

It left out the requirements to be working and paying taxes for 3 years to submit the application.

Better info is here. http://bangkok.immigration.go.th/2notice/residence61/residence_documents_en.pdf

 

 

 

[KiChakayan]

1 hour ago, gamini said:

this post should get a prize for one of the most stupid I've ever read. The current policy of the government is to encourage genuine retirees because they bring large financial benefitS to the country. Its current policy is to weed out non-genuine retirees who try to cheat the system by using VISA agents to put up the financial requirements and those  giving false declarations about their income. I guess that you must be one of these

Well, dunno? where does, a 250000 THB, with some nice cash assets, put me?  But keep guessing if it can get you off.

[KiChakayan]

47 minutes ago, biggles45 said:

"Actually, the Philipinnes offer residence for retirees with very low requirements"

 

after 10+ years living in Thailand I looked at the retirement requirements and decided that they were too onerous and went for the Philippine option. Similar financial requirements but with SRRV

- you get Permanent Resident status and a plastic resident card.

- you NEVER report to immigration for any reason.  not once in my 7 years

- no exit visa requirements, come and go as you like.

 

my Filipina partner and I spend 5 months a year in Thailand, 2X60 day and 1X 30 day. She doesnt pay for her visa, mine costs 1,050 baht.IF YOU DONT want to go this route, you can arrive on a 30 day visa free entry and keep extending (at a cost) up to 3 years, when you leave and then start again. Certainly a better deal than Thailand offers. 

I think I'll have a trip to the Philippines soon to see how life could be out there. As a former UN staffer I should be entitled to the "SRRV courtesy", which requires a deposit of 1500 USD only. Attractive, isn't?

[scorecard]

2 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

You have to be working with a work permit and paying taxes for 3 years on extension of stay to apply for PR.

And if you can meet those requirements you can apply for Thai nationality instead of PR.

 I've read numerous times that part of the Thai logic on PR is that it's available only to people can prove, through WPs and tax paid, that they have specifically contributed to the actual development of Thailand. Is that actual policy? I don't know.

 

Now stand by for the 'yes but I spend at least 40,000Baht (?) a month, is that not contributing to the development of Thailand?' 

[Fortean1]

We have friends from New York City.  The man is Thai with dual Thai and U.S. citizenship.  He worked for 40+ years as a pharmacist and in management in the drug industry.  His wife is from the Philippines and a naturalized U.S. citizen. She said she is considering residence here in Thailand.  She never worked here and she is 77 y.o.  Her husband is 81 or 82 y.o.  How would permanent residence work for them?

 

[ubonjoe]

5 minutes ago, scorecard said:

I've read numerous times that part of the Thai logic on PR is that it's available only to people can prove, through WPs and tax paid, that they have specifically contributed to the actual development of Thailand. Is that actual policy? I don't know.

 

From page 3 of this file.  http://bangkok.immigration.go.th/2notice/residence61/residence_documents_en.pdf

 

[dcnx]

So many other counties will give you PR easily, especially if you have a little bit of money. Not sure why everyone wants to swim upstream and make life hard on themselves until they finally kick the bucket. Go with the flow, not against it.

[FritsSikkink]

18 hours ago, JackThompson said:

The scams are run by and for Immigration's benefit  - not a reason to penalize honest retirees.  But agree it will never happen - the wind is blowing hard in the other direction, and they appear to want to be able to easily rid themselves of most of us quickly, if desired.

Just the people who don't give a shit about the rules, bribe their way out and are basically economical refugees as they can't afford to live in their home country with their pension

Edited May 29, 2019 by FritsSikkink