The horns of a dilemma.

[Bundooman]

4 hours ago, ezzra said:

The OP confuses the issue by calling it a delima, indeed it's a dilemma and a moral miscarriage of the rights to live in a place whereby you were a big part of it, alas, for the Thai, your delima is a non issue for them, adhere to the rules and stay and if you can't, well, see you later pal...

first class example of a vindictive and condescending post!

[buick]

i'm not sure what the OP means when referring to 'many years ago' but i remember reading about people being 'grandfathered in' at lower requirements than 400,000thb and 800,000thb.  i think the 400,000thb use to be 200,000thb is that right ?

 

i know there have been some recent changes but the big one seems be elimination of the 'income letter'.  in that case, people lied about their income and lived in thailand for years (decades ?).  so now they need to use an agent service if they can't put money in the bank.

 

the bigger issue i see is the strong baht against many currencies.  that is what is making things more expensive for most of us.  combined with normal inflation over a decade or two.  i came in 2006 when the baht was 40 to 1usd, now it is 32.  i know the pound and aussie dollar have suffered even more.

 

so pointing the finger at immigration might be missing the mark a bit.

[Gandtee]

We know the 2019 requirements but It has been said by some posters that the financial requirements have always been there? Since when and how much? That is the question.

[Farang99]

4 hours ago, ballpoint said:

Why abandon the family?  Why don't they sell their house here and move the family back to their home country?  Could it be because their own country's immigration requirements are far stricter than Thailand's?

No. It's probably because the cost of living in their home country is far higher, and if they have been living here for many years they are no longer entitled to the social services (free health care etc) that the residents get.

[Thingamabob]

I have always advised newcomers to think twice, at least, before making any form of financial commitment here. I have been cleaned out once, in 1997, in the nearly 40 years I have lived in Thailand, but I was lucky to have the resources to be able to recover. Others will not be so fortunate I'm afraid. Think long and hard before you commit. This is a very tough place in which to face financial difficulties.

[Deerculler]

If Trump and Li Ping stopped playing there stupid power games it would be big help to the rest of the world.

[Stevemercer]

5 hours ago, ballpoint said:

Why abandon the family?  Why don't they sell their house here and move the family back to their home country?  Could it be because their own country's immigration requirements are far stricter than Thailand's?

 

That's not true.

 

If a Thai lady marries a falang, and the couple moves to the falang's country, they will receive permanent residency after submitting the appropriate papers. In Australia, if they are still married after 2 years the permanent residency is confirmed. There is no English test.

 

All Thai spouses get full access to Medicare, can work in any job, can access all services that Australian citizens get. This is from the day their application for permanent residency in Australia, based on marriage to an Australian citizen, is accepted by their local Immigration office and they have paid the fee.

 

Compare that to Thailand. Falangs married to Thai woman get nothing except being able to stay in Thailand on a year by year basis with no gaurantees.

[ThomasThBKK]

3 minutes ago, Stevemercer said:

 

That's not true. If a Thai lady marries a falang, and the couple moves to the falang's country, they will receive permanent residency after submitting the appropriate papers. In Australia, if they are still married after 2 years the permanent residency is confirmed. There is no English test.

 

All Thai spouses get full access to Medicare, can work in any job, can access all services that Australian citizens get.

 

Compare that to Thailand. Falangs married to Thai woman get nothing except being able to stay in Thailand on a year by year basis.

 

In germany it's 7 years until they can get a passport, but the family reunion visa is easy to get if you are married, can even invite certain parts of the family afaik.

[connda]

6 hours ago, Gandtee said:

While I am in the fortunate position of being able to meet the Immigration Department's financial requirements, I suspect there are some who are not as fortunate as I. What about those who came to Thailand many years ago, married a Thai woman, bought a house here and sold their home in their homeland. They brought children into the world, raised and educated them. They even gave financial assistance to their Thai relatives when needed. The money they use comes from their homeland to do all these things, swelling Thailand's coffers, but not enough to maintain the baht 800,000 in the bank required by the Thai immigration laws. If they are now denied a visa extension what becomes of his family with noone to support them and deprived of their husband and father?  What becomes of him? He may be too old to work and has nothing in his own country. What is the answer?

The answer is understanding this one pearl of wisdom: "Life ain't fair."

The other pearl of wisdom to understand is that no matter how much money you've pumped into Thailand or how many Thai people you've have helped raise from the dregs of poverty, when the day comes that you need help - the Thai government will unceremoniously kick you out of the country.  

Make your Plan B now.  Execute it when you need to.  

[worgeordie]

They could ask for some of the money to be repaid,from the

extended family they helped with all their financial difficulties,in the past,

i am sure they would be willing to repay their debts,and maybe

chip in some more,when they know you now need the money 

to be able to stay here.......????

regards worgeordie

[ballpoint]

18 minutes ago, Stevemercer said:

 

That's not true.

 

If a Thai lady marries a falang, and the couple moves to the falang's country, they will receive permanent residency after submitting the appropriate papers. In Australia, if they are still married after 2 years the permanent residency is confirmed. There is no English test.

 

All Thai spouses get full access to Medicare, can work in any job, can access all services that Australian citizens get. This is from the day their application for permanent residency in Australia, based on marriage to an Australian citizen, is accepted by their local Immigration office and they have paid the fee.

 

Compare that to Thailand. Falangs married to Thai woman get nothing except being able to stay in Thailand on a year by year basis with no gaurantees.

Well, if it's that simple, then what's the problem?  Get your wife PR, move her over and into a job.

[moe666]

To worry about someone else and their decisions is a waste of time, I cannot do anything for those who cannot show proof of their income or have enough to put money in the bank if according to a few here their number is legion. I have compassionfor these people and would like to see a better outcome for them and their family but I cannot solve their problem they will have to do this in the end. Another thread about does nothing but get the anger of a few here fired up.

[moe666]

48 minutes ago, Stevemercer said:

 

That's not true.

 

If a Thai lady marries a falang, and the couple moves to the falang's country, they will receive permanent residency after submitting the appropriate papers. In Australia, if they are still married after 2 years the permanent residency is confirmed. There is no English test.

 

All Thai spouses get full access to Medicare, can work in any job, can access all services that Australian citizens get. This is from the day their application for permanent residency in Australia, based on marriage to an Australian citizen, is accepted by their local Immigration office and they have paid the fee.

 

Compare that to Thailand. Falangs married to Thai woman get nothing except being able to stay in Thailand on a year by year basis with no gaurantees.

Steve you are missing something Thais get very little here as well other than the fact they are citizens.

[Alex2554]

Carlosm, you have one more option, non B visa for 1900 baht 

[Suradit69]

7 hours ago, Gandtee said:

came to Thailand many years ago, married a Thai woman,

 

7 hours ago, Gandtee said:

not enough to maintain the baht 800,000 in the bank required by the Thai immigration laws.

If he's married he could extend his permission to stay to one based on marriage by keeping half that, Baht 400,000 in the bank, or depositing Baht 40,000 a month in an account, which he would be free to use for expenses. If he's not from one of the few countries who stopped issuing income affidavits he could still get the income letter and proceed as before ... if he is from one of those countries that stopped issuing the letter he ought to complain to his embassy (for whatever good that will do).

 

I understand your concern, but income of Baht 65,000  or Baht 40,000 a month was expected before all the changes. The difference is only that now it has to be deposited in a Thai bank whereas before it could be simply "proved" with a letter from one's embassy.

 

As far as marrying, buying a house, raising children is concerned, I doubt many would claim all of that was done to benefit Thailand anymore than doing the same in his home country was done for patriotism.

 

I do agree that long stay foreigners should be given some slack/time to get their affairs in order, but if someone can't muster Baht 40,000 a month deposited in a Thai bank for a marriage extension he's living a pretty meager existence while managing a house and family. I doubt Thailand's coffers are bursting at the seams from that contribution.

 

If he had his children long ago they should be of employable age and ought to chip in a bit to get him over the Baht 40,000 a month requirement.

 

I've been here a long time on retirement extensions and this new set of requirements (the embassies should share the blame) is annoying and inconvenient, but for most of those years I was claiming a monthly income over Baht 65,000 a month legitimately so the process has changed but the amount I supposedly have available remains the same. 

[KiChakayan]

7 hours ago, cranki said:

They may very well have to leave the country...leaving the children fatherless.

Yep, and the authorities up to the highest, unspeakable of, level wouldn't care less. Some of the neighbors, possibly family, would rejoice.

[The Deerhunter]

2 hours ago, ThomasThBKK said:

 

In germany it's 7 years until they can get a passport, but the family reunion visa is easy to get if you are married, can even invite certain parts of the family afaik.

New Zealand I think it is similar.   Two years to get P.R. as long as all paperwork is done but now,  another 5 to get citizenship.  But P R gets most if not all, N.Z. benefits and privileges.  Australia used to be the tough one.

[khunPer]

8 hours ago, Gandtee said:

The money they use comes from their homeland to do all these things, swelling Thailand's coffers, but not enough to maintain the baht 800,000 in the bank required by the Thai immigration laws. If they are now denied a visa extension what becomes of his family with noone to support them and deprived of their husband and father?

Apart from 400k baht, or 40k baht a month, is needed when married to a Thai, there is not really that much changed, just that a few Western embassies will not issue income letters anymore.

 

If one have had the required monthly income, and transferred it to Thailand, they just need to show their bank statements instead of income letter.

 

Those arriving long time ago, when it was 200k baht for a retirement extension, and later 400k baht, became "grandfathered", and they can still extend on the old-time rules; that I saw posted by our Thaivisa's visa expert, as I myself worried about if they one day would raise the 800k baht deposit, double it as before, to 1.6 million baht...????

 

A problem for some of my fellow countrymen is, that their prior embassy letters were retirement pensions before income tax, and thereby not the amount they actually had available to fulfill the monthly requirement; so in theory, they never really did. If they only have the governmental retirement pension, they have about 25k baht a month when transferred with the low present currency exchange rate, a few years back it would have been 30k baht a month, and without tax-deduction about 36k baht a month, so just a tiny extra income from a private pension – or additional small "social security" lifelong work pension, that most of my fellow countrymen have – could add up to the 40k baht a month, when retired. The SS-pension however might only be a few thousand bath a month after tax, I believe 5k baht a month after tax is about maximum. My country's embassy, Denmark, will still issue income letters, but only state public retirement income, and SS-pension, after tax.

 

I think the currency exchange rate is a major factor here, and some nations suffers more than others, Brits seem quite bad off, with a very low £ to baht-rate, compared to what it once was, and non-indexed government pension. Furthermore, interest rate from private savings are low, so outcome of for example bonds, or money-market interest, is half from about 10-years ago.

 

I'm lucky that I'm also in a position with enough fund for a deposit, but my income suffers. 10 years ago bonds would give me 6 percent in annual interest, now one shall be happy when its 3 percent, so 50 percent down in bond-savings income. Furthermore a few years back I would get 6+ baht for each of my home country-coins, now I get 4,70 baht or less, so almost 22 percent down. That mean my retirement pension income is 20+ percent down, and my savings income is 60+ percent down; with for example a 50/50 mix its an income loss of 40 percent, so what before was 65k baht a month is now 39k baht a month...????

 

 

[thailiban2]

If i could sell my house i'd do it in a heart beat. I cannot meat the requirements and would literally do anything for 400k right now. I invested everything i had, mid last year, into my business and employ 4 Thais. I am slowly recovering the money but will not be enough for a couple of years.
The rural housing market is all but dead so before you comment use your dead brain ! I know 2 other westerners who have small business's and cannot come close to the new requirements. They will lose their families and home and are really scared right now, like many others i suspect.
It looks like only 2 options (realistically) are available, leave the Country and get a non 'O' or use and agent and take your chance's of not been caught. Both costly and time consuming but there's no other choice's i can see.

Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[CH1961]

5 hours ago, abizeus said:

hope all the farangs leave, like myself

Why they should leave? 

They have, in contrast to you, always saved and now have a cozy home and enjoy to stay in Thailand. 

 

Try your luck, without money, in Vietnam. 

[CH1961]

1 hour ago, khunPer said:

Furthermore a few years back I would get 6+ baht for each of my home country-coins, now I get 4,70 baht or less, so almost 22 percent down. 

Always complaining, this development is not a one-way street. 

Anyone who has put money on the bank 10 years ago or has traded a property can enjoy now a large increase in value.

[Stevemercer]

4 hours ago, ballpoint said:

Well, if it's that simple, then what's the problem?  Get your wife PR, move her over and into a job.

 

??? My Thai wife is already an Australian citizen, as well as a Thai citizen. The point is it is vastly easier for a Thai to get permanent residency through marriage to a foreigner (in the foreigners' home country) then it is for a foreigner living in Thailand who marries a Thai.

 

Marriage to a Thai national is not a path to residency unlike Western countries. In Australia a Thai spouse can buy land, within 2 weeks of moving to Australia and putting in her permanent residency application. She has free medical treatment, free English classes and all the benefits of an Australian citizen.

 

You could be living in Thailand, married to a Thai lady, for 10 or 20 years and never get closer to permanent residency, and still have to get a new marriage extension with 400,000 Baht. You can't own land or get any benefits that Thai people enjoy. You still don't know if they will change the rules year to year and suddenly you are out of the country.

 

So if you are defending Thai immigration policy for those living in the country and married to Thai nationals, compared to western countries, you are dead wrong.

 

 

 

[Stevemercer]

3 hours ago, moe666 said:

Steve you are missing something Thais get very little here as well other than the fact they are citizens.

 

Yes, that is certainly true apart, perhaps, from universal health care. 

 

To be fair, I think Thai immigration policy is at pains not to make it more difficult for those of us living in Thailand on marriage visas/extensions. They realise the social hardship that would be caused if foreigners were forced to abandon their Thai families through harsh immigration requirements.

 

I just think they could do more by way of providing certainty (year-by-year) to those living here with our wives and on modest incomes. I would have thought that someone who has lived here for 5 years or more with their wife should get some concessions, benefits, or at least encouragement, to stay in Thailand and continue to support the spouse, family etc. At the very least they should get the benefit of the doubt and not be treated as though they may be in a sham marriage, need annual household visits or are somehow trying to rort the system.

 

Maybe Immigration could come out and say if they support foreigners with Thai wives living in Thailand. Do they think it is a good thing or a bad thing? Maybe they should invite opinions from a broad cross section of society and develop some sort of policy statement so we know whether we are welcome or not.

[JaiLai]

It really amazes me people would not have 400/800k in the bank after their working life.




Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[samsensam]

 

you could ask the thai in laws to loan you some money...

[madmen]

12 hours ago, cranki said:

400K or 800K....I think it doesn't matter for the sake of the thread....some people are flat broke and may very well have to leave... is the gist of it I think.

huh? changed ? its still 400k and 800k. What your really trying to stay is the unfortunate ones that lied to their embassies and are now caught out

Its sad but building your dreams around a house of cards was always gonna end in tears. Cant blame the Thais for that

[Graviton]

19 hours ago, cranki said:

400K or 800K....I think it doesn't matter for the sake of the thread....some people are flat broke and may very well have to leave... is the gist of it I think.

Yes it does? The income is only 4Ok a month and the family/wife can work. What about the single old man 65k a month or 800k??? Now that is the problem, or married, now divorced?

[Lacessit]

8 hours ago, CH1961 said:

Always complaining, this development is not a one-way street. 

Anyone who has put money on the bank 10 years ago or has traded a property can enjoy now a large increase in value.

Half right. My deposit of 800K baht made 8 years ago is now worth a lot more in Australian dollars.

On the other hand, I dispute any increase in house values, because everyone knows Thais will not buy second-hand houses without a hefty discount. They overwhelmingly want new, which is not surprising given Thai building standards. Land values are irrelevant, because a farang can't own land.

[Lacessit]

To answer the OP's question, there is always plan B, or C.

Families do not need to split. Farangs can still stay here by playing the tourist visa card, which moreover has the benefit of freeing up cash on deposit. Just border-hop to Laos, Myanmar or Cambodia. They may not be able to stay here full time, but with planning at least six months in the year.

For those who are  impecunious because they have sunk everything into Thailand, my sympathy is limited, because they should have planned better. Malcolm Fraser once said life wasn't meant to be easy.

 

[Graviton]

3 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

To answer the OP's question, there is always plan B, or C.

Families do not need to split. Farangs can still stay here by playing the tourist visa card, which moreover has the benefit of freeing up cash on deposit. Just border-hop to Laos, Myanmar or Cambodia. They may not be able to stay here full time, but with planning at least six months in the year.

For those who are  impecunious because they have sunk everything into Thailand, my sympathy is limited, because they should have planned better. Malcolm Fraser once said life wasn't meant to be easy.

 

Or......

 

Life is easy people complicate it.... lol