ATM withdrawal vs Bank transfer TT

[dotpoom]

Looking for my "code breaker" book.

[steven100]

9 minutes ago, dotpoom said:

Looking for my "code breaker" book.

whats a code breaker book   ?

[KamnanT]

Make the withdrawal from a Citibank ATM in Thailand (Interchange 21 building at the corner of Asoke and Sukhumvit) and there will be no ATM withdrawal fee at either end.  You will pay Citibank's retail exchange rate with no foreign transaction surcharge. Probably the best deal for small amounts. For larger transfers, it might be worth opening a Transferwise account to get a slightly better exchange rate.

[rwill]

A couple of things to remember when using ATM's in Thailand with a foriegn account. 

1)  There is a 220 baht charge no matter how much you take out.  So it is best to take out the largest amount you can.  TMB and Krungsri ATM's let you withdraw 30,000 baht, most others are 20,000 baht.  It also depends on how much your bank allows to be withdrawn.  If you can't withdraw 30K, figure out the max you can and manually enter that amount.

2) The Thai ATM's will offer to do a conversion for you.  It is at a much lower rate.  NEVER accept their conversion.

   Always select the option to continue without conversion.  

   On a 30K withdrawal for me the difference is about $60US.  A very large difference.  Much worse than the 220 baht they charge you.

[rickudon]

13 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

Well you like many others and newbies miss the point completely I have not gone back to England in 14 years and have no desire to do so if my First Direct bank send money to me for £6 that suits me fine thankyou.

Well, maybe not relevant to you, but relevant to many others. Generally speaking TT rates are lower than card conversion rates, it is all about the fees charged by the banks - which vary a lot.

 

For me, using a fee free UK card at an ATM is most convenient and cheapest for regular expenses - i do 2 x 20,000 baht withdrawals a month normally (20,000 to max out against the ATM fee, works out as 0,75% using an Aeon ATM). To get a better rate via TT interbank transfers i need to take 200,000 baht or more, or in fact sometimes never better.  It means i get my spending money when i need it, no need to plan ahead.

[Pib]

58 minutes ago, KamnanT said:

Make the withdrawal from a Citibank ATM in Thailand (Interchange 21 building at the corner of Asoke and Sukhumvit) and there will be no ATM withdrawal fee at either end.  You will pay Citibank's retail exchange rate with no foreign transaction surcharge. Probably the best deal for small amounts. For larger transfers, it might be worth opening a Transferwise account to get a slightly better exchange rate.

".....You will pay Citibank's retail exchange rate...." sounds like fancy words for Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) which gives approx 3% less than the Visa/Mastercard exchange rate.

Edited June 4, 2019 by Pib

[KamnanT]

11 minutes ago, Pib said:

".....You will pay Citibank's retail exchange rate...." sounds like fancy words for Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) which gives approx 3% less than the Visa/Mastercard exchange rate.

Actually, in this case, no.  International Citibank ATM withdrawals don't go through the usual interbank intermediaries (VISA/Mastercard/UnionPay/etc.) - they are processed internally by Citibank.  So no DCC option.  There won't be a 220 baht Thai ATM fee for non-local cards and there won't be a 2.0-3.0% "foreign currency surcharge" as levied by many banks on international purchases and ATM withdrawals.  You will get the same rate Citibank would apply to an inbound TT from Australia to Thailand.  This won't be as good as the wholesale Visa/Mastercard exchange rate but it will be close.  For small withdrawals like 10,000 baht, the small loss on the exchange rate will be more than recouped by the savings on fees: the 220 baht Thai ATM fee alone is equivalent to a 2.2% surcharge on a 10,000 baht withdrawal.

 

Note that this only applies to using a Citibank ATM to withdraw money from an overseas Citibank account.

[Kwasaki]

1 hour ago, rickudon said:

an Aeon ATM

That's good you can use the ATM I use to as well until Nationwide UK bank & Thai banks started charging.

The nearest Aeon ATM one to me 600 baht-worth of diesel away. ????

[Kwasaki]

1 hour ago, rickudon said:

using an Aeon ATM

By the way thanks just found Aeon branch network office at the back of Big 'C' near us so will check it out.

[Kurtf]

23 hours ago, KhunBENQ said:

Exchange rate is determined by the credit card issuer not the ATM operator.

(except you do the big mistake and select the respective option "DCC").

VISA rate is currently about 21.72.

 

What you loose for 10000 Baht: 220 Baht fee (2.2% !) from Thai bank (Bangkok Bank and others).

 

What you might(!) loose: more fees from your issuing bank.

Certain cards offer free withdrawal abroad.

 

Bank transfer as well as ATM withdrawal of such a small amount always comes out with significant loss.

 

The problem is that every ATM I have visited has a 10,000 Baht limit per day. At least as far as my bank in America is concerned.

[Jamesanderson]

Depends on your card. For Visa, you can find it at the link below. Just Google your card and exchange rate calculator. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

3 hours ago, KamnanT said:

Actually, in this case, no.  International Citibank ATM withdrawals don't go through the usual interbank intermediaries (VISA/Mastercard/UnionPay/etc.) - they are processed internally by Citibank. 

 

Maybe that explains why in the past, when I used my no fee U.S. debit card to make some test withdrawals at the Citibank ATMs at Asoke and Sukhumvit, the resulting exchange rate I got always seemed to be lower than what I was supposed to get, and did get, with a straight VISA network exchange rate when I used the same debit card at other Thai ATMs.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 hours ago, Kurtf said:

The problem is that every ATM I have visited has a 10,000 Baht limit per day. At least as far as my bank in America is concerned.

 

Some U.S. banks have daily ATM withdrawal limits as low as $300 to $350, which would cap out at around 10,000 baht.

 

You might check with that particular bank as to whether they're willing to increase the daily withdrawal limit on that particular card, and/or consider using a different bank card that has a higher limit, ideally $1000 U.S. that would allow you to make good use of the TMB or Krungsri ATMs that have 30,000 baht maximum withdrawals.

 

[JamJar]

On 6/3/2019 at 1:02 PM, Kwasaki said:

Well you like many others and newbies miss the point completely I have not gone back to England in 14 years and have no desire to do so if my First Direct bank send money to me for £6 that suits me fine thankyou.

 

 

You are funny. You seem to think that we would know you if we weren't 'newbies'. ????

 

Maybe we've been around longer but have simply not noticed you. No need for the "Don't you know who I am?" type post.

 

Anyway, don't take it too seriously...it's just a bit of humour.

I don't need to know you, I just try to give the best advice that I can. If it applies to you, then great.

 

If not, we'll try to find the best way together.

 

Do you direct First Direct send the money to Thailand in Pounds or in Baht? If in Pounds, does the £6 you claim include the receiving bank fee of a minimum of £5? Is there a Correspondent bank fee involved?

 

Have you compared the cost with other options such as Xendpay or Transferwise? Of course if you need to show money coming in from abroad for a retirement visa, then these options might not be suitable.

Of course I don't know your situation, even though I'm a not so newbie. ????

 

We are here to help each other out when we can.

 

 

[Kwasaki]

51 minutes ago, JamJar said:

Do you direct First Direct send the money to Thailand in Pounds or in Baht? If in Pounds, does the £6 you claim include the receiving bank fee of a minimum of £5? Is there a Correspondent bank fee involved?

Apologies I can post what looks a bit too abrupt at times. 

With FD I sent in baht many moons ago and their starting to do it cheaper online from what I can make out to compete with middle men maybe.

When I sent money Transferwise didn't seem that cheap to me, I'm gonna do a experiment in the next couple months to find out what's going on, send same amount money by my uk bank and Transferwise.

 

Today I sent money back to Uk in one hit 1,150 baht I was charged, Deemoney would of cost me 800 baht doing it bit by bit by all accounts, so sending what is a large amount to me safely from a Thai bank suited this old fart fine thanks. ????

 

[JamJar]

2 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

Apologies I can post what looks a bit too abrupt at times. 

With FD I sent in baht many moons ago and their starting to do it cheaper online from what I can make out to compete with middle men maybe.

When I sent money Transferwise didn't seem that cheap to me, I'm gonna do a experiment in the next couple months to find out what's going on, send same amount money by my uk bank and Transferwise.

 

Today I sent money back to Uk in one hit 1,150 baht I was charged, Deemoney would of cost me 800 baht doing it bit by bit by all accounts, so sending what is a large amount to me safely from a Thai bank suited this old fart fine thanks. ????

 

 

Sending in baht from the UK is bad. You get a very poor exchange rate. One should always send in Pounds and let the Thai bank do the exchange.

Transferwise should be comparable with this method or better.

Xendpay too, as you can choose to pay no fees at all, but you can only do this for up to £2000 per annum. So perhaps useful for those smaller transfers.

 

But both Transferwise and XendPay should rival or better the best that FD can offer.

 

If you want to do a comparison but don't want to do it on the open board, perhaps give board member Pib a PM. If he has the time, I'm sure he will happily run a comparison of all three methods; FD in Pounds(never send in baht), Transferwise and XendPay before you actually commit to one or the other.

He might spot if you've made a mistake in the way that you have executed the transfers.

 

The way that the independents work is that you do a UK bank to UK bank transfer and they do a Thai bank to Thai bank transfer. So no International fees and in the case of Transferwise, the full wholesale exchange rate. Transferwise take a fee. Not sure if XendPay's exchange rate is full, but then you can offset that by lowering or omitting their fee entirely.

 

Whereas if you send from FD(in Pounds), there is likely a charge from FD, then the exchange rate that the Thai bank offers and then an incoming fee from the Thai bank of perhaps a minimum of 200 baht and a maximum of 500 baht. Worse, if your Thai bank doesn't have a relationship with FD, there may be fees from a bank in the middle.

 

 

[Kwasaki]

1 hour ago, JamJar said:

But both Transferwise and XendPay should rival or better the best that FD can offer.

Yeah thanks but I'll do my experiment. ????

[JamJar]

On 6/5/2019 at 5:18 PM, Kwasaki said:

Yeah thanks but I'll do my experiment. ????

 

£1000

Mastercard cash advance gets you 39,715.63 (data available for the 6th)

Xendpay: 39710.52 (choosing the no fee option)

Western Union: 39610.74THB

Transferwise: 39,573.91 (increased their fee this month)

 

[JamJar]

On 6/5/2019 at 5:18 PM, Kwasaki said:

Yeah thanks but I'll do my experiment. ????

 

To compare with the other methods, you can simply ask First Direct what exchange rate they offer for a £1000 transfer today.

That will give you the figure for sending baht from the UK.

If they can send in Pounds, look at the Thai bank's exchange rate;

Krung Thai is the highest at 39.5601

As you can see, even without any added fees, you cannot better any of the independents.

But there will always be a receiving fee and perhaps First Direct will have their own fee. Plus there may be a bank in the middle.

 

So unless you need to show income from outside Thailand, abank transfer is actually the worst option.

 

No need to actually spend money in order to compare.

 

Edited June 7, 2019 by JamJar

[Kwasaki]

2 minutes ago, JamJar said:

 

To compare with the other methods, you can simply ask First Direct what exchange rate they offer for a £1000 transfer today. No need to actually spend money in order to compare.

Things in UK online banking have charged I don't think it will work that way whatever they say on the phone or online that's why the proof of the pudding experiment.

[JamJar]

3 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Things in UK online banking have charged I don't think it will work that way whatever they say on the phone or online that's why the proof of the pudding experiment.

 

Hmmm....I live in the UK and have probably more experience in Thailand than yourself. I know how it works. What I have written is correct. Bank transfer is going to be the worst, no matter how you twist it.

[Kwasaki]

13 hours ago, JamJar said:

 

Hmmm....I live in the UK and have probably more experience in Thailand than yourself. I know how it works. What I have written is correct. Bank transfer is going to be the worst, no matter how you twist it.

We all have different experiences and over my years things have changed, take Deemoney e,g.

I haven't lived  in UK for a long time I live in Thailand, I'm signed up with OFX & Transferwise and with Transferwise sending £7000 to Thailand was not cheap IMO, and conversation with FD Uk they said it would of been a bit cheaper sending that amount with them now.

Hence the experiment.

 

For years I been going into a Thai high bank with my FD Uk debit card & passport that has been the cheapest way for me, the online banking service with FD has changed and I can send money Thailand online, one could not do that before, you would have to do it on the phone.

Edited June 8, 2019 by Kwasaki

[JamJar]

7 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

We all have different experiences and over my years things have changed, take Deemoney e,g.

I haven't lived  in UK for a long time I live in Thailand, I'm signed up with OFX & Transferwise and with Transferwise sending £7000 to Thailand was not cheap IMO, and conversation with FD Uk they said it would of been a bit cheaper sending that amount with them now.

Hence the experiment.

 

For years I been going into a Thai high bank with my FD Uk debit card & passport that has been the cheapest way for me, the online banking service with FD has changed and I can send money Thailand online, one could not do that before, you would have to do it on the phone.

 

 

This is impossible.

 

Even now, Transferwise offers 39.56411714285714 after fees for a £7000 transfer and that is with their raised fees.

 

Krung Thai's TT rate is currently 39.5601 and you would only get that if FD sent Pounds and didn't charge any fees at all and if Krung Thai waived their receiving fee.

 

But Krung Thai won't waive their receiving fee of at least 500 baht, so the absolute best you could get is 39.48867142857143

 

You can sign into the First Direct portal to see what Thai baht rate they can offer. I doubt they will offer 39.48. Anyone can give you BS about offering you more.

 

You must have done something wrong during the Transferwise transfer.

 

I follow this kind of thing closely, so know about all of the changes.

 

Further to this, I have found someone who ran a comparison between the rate that First Direct offers it's customers and the 'spot rate'.

 

Thai Baht

THB

39.128

42.42784

7.78%

 

 

First column First Direct. Second, the 'spot'/Interbank/mid market rate

 

So the FD rate was 7.78% off the rate that Transferwise would offer. So forget about sending in Thai baht.

https://currencyfees.com/first-direct-exchange-rate/

Sending in Pounds is the only way that you could take advantage of the Thailand bank TT rate. But as I have illustrated, the TT rate itself is already lower than the rate with every other provider.

 

So you are doing something wrong along the way.

Edited June 8, 2019 by JamJar

[Kwasaki]

2 hours ago, JamJar said:

 

 

This is impossible.

 

Even now, Transferwise offers 39.56411714285714 after fees for a £7000 transfer and that is with their raised fees.

 

Krung Thai's TT rate is currently 39.5601 and you would only get that if FD sent Pounds and didn't charge any fees at all and if Krung Thai waived their receiving fee.

 

But Krung Thai won't waive their receiving fee of at least 500 baht, so the absolute best you could get is 39.48867142857143

 

You can sign into the First Direct portal to see what Thai baht rate they can offer. I doubt they will offer 39.48. Anyone can give you BS about offering you more.

 

You must have done something wrong during the Transferwise transfer.

 

I follow this kind of thing closely, so know about all of the changes.

 

Further to this, I have found someone who ran a comparison between the rate that First Direct offers it's customers and the 'spot rate'.

 

Thai Baht

THB

39.128

42.42784

7.78%

 

 

First column First Direct. Second, the 'spot'/Interbank/mid market rate

 

So the FD rate was 7.78% off the rate that Transferwise would offer. So forget about sending in Thai baht.

https://currencyfees.com/first-direct-exchange-rate/

Sending in Pounds is the only way that you could take advantage of the Thailand bank TT rate. But as I have illustrated, the TT rate itself is already lower than the rate with every other provider.

 

So you are doing something wrong along the way.

You just don't get it Transferwise charged £57 to send money, you can go on about about interest rates all day long that IMO is not the point.

We can just agree to disagree I think is best. ????

[JamJar]

2 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

You just don't get it Transferwise charged £57 to send money, you can go on about about interest rates all day long that IMO is not the point.

We can just agree to disagree I think is best. ????

 

I "don't get it" because you just told me.

 

But what you don't get is that is irrelevant.

 

What is important, is the final exchange rate. 

 

Transferwise starts with the Interbank rate and takes a small cut. In fact if they took just £57 from a £7000 transfer, that is 0.814%. Less than 1% off the Interbank rate. So you got 99.186% of your money

 

Whereas, I already showed you that the First Direct Thai Baht rate, if correct, was more than 7.78% off the Interbank rate. So that means you get 92.22% of your money.

You may be able to sign into the FD portal to check the current rate, so that we can compare for you.

 

I also showed you that even if FD allowed you to send in Pounds, then you are dependent on the Thai bank's TT rate and their receiving fee. So we can also work out the costs as a percentage.

 

The other thing that you don't seem to get, is that I am trying to help you.

 

You are looking at the fee without taking into account that they are not tampering with the exchange rate.

 

Whereas your bank will tell you no fee, but they tamper with the exchange rate. Understand now?

 

That is why I am trying to help you to do a real time comparison, as this may not be your forte.

 

Maybe you will, in time, pass on the kindness. 

 

 

[JamJar]

Allow me to give you another example;

Imagine that you could withdraw £7000 over the counter with your First Direct card. First Direct take a 2.75% commission from the VISA exchange rate.

Let me be generous by equating the VISA exchange rate with the Interbank rate. That would mean they have taken a £192.50 fee, minimum. But in reality it is even more than that. I am just being as generous as possible.

 

So can you see that a fee of £57 pales in comparison? Currently the fee for £7k is from £45.89.

 

 

 

 

 

So don't be too proud to accept help. 

[beddhist]

As far as I can see Transferwise is the only one to say they pay from their Thai bank a/c into the recipient's. I cant figure it out on Xendpay and I know from experience that XE do NOT, meaning they wire the funds to the destination bank. The last time we did this we lost only 0.11%=1500B, presumably in a receiving fee to SCB.

 

Interestingly, TW quotes me above the mid-market rate as per XE. The rate you actually get with XE varies; higher amounts get a better rate. XE charges no fees.